Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Part the Second [Now With Added Platforms].

[nedeaalex]

For you, perhaps, since your preferences here are clear. But ED was described from the start, and sold, as a game where players would be free to choose who they play with — including not playing with anyone else — without negative consequences, which seems to indicate that the single player label in Steam is both accurate and intentional.

(Or as accurate as it can be for an always online game, anyway.)

If the intent was to focus on multiplayer, on content that requires multiple players, the proper time to announce so would have been over two years ago, during the game's Kickstart. Not now, half a year after launch, when many players have already purchased the game exactly because it allows solo players to do everything in game and prevents other players from ruining each other's game by forcing unwanted PvP.



Yes, please do! I backed the game for the single player offline, after all

(BTW, Witcher 3 is a truly great game, from one of the dev houses I have the most respect for )

Yeah i know witcher 3 is very good. But it was built for SP and SP only. And thats where it shines. It doesn't try to bring MP and SP together, it choae one and it decided to be best at that one

 

[Cmdr Zach]

Doesn't force anyone into solo, it forces people to finance properly, keep some money aside for accidents or switch to a cheaper ship until the insurance is covered.

 

[Jockey79]

Adding onto this post. The Posts being placed here are completely valid and arguable points, just simply counter it and voice your concerns. Don't dismiss someone's post because you simply just disagree, show why its bad and defend your point. Constructive Criticism IS what this whole discussion is about, is it not?

Great advice, now repeat that to the open advocates who dismissed my 6 hours in open mode on Saturday night, with the opinions based on my experiences

 

[jk2l]

if you got some expensive loadout, try downgrade it to give yourself some money back

 

[nedeaalex]

Wings trailer - 1 wing, Vs another 1 wing... yup can do that.
Launch one, what PvP? who said they are all player ships? - you've jumped to conclusions.
As for bullets and ships everywhere - go shoot a station, you'll get bullets and ships everywhere as well. Heck you can get that for breach of the no fire zone at some stations.

And yes, there is PvP - but it is not the entire game, only a PART of it.

What facts by the way, I'm yet to see any, just your flawed conclusions.

So are you telling me that the average Gamer Joe who watches those trailers is going to know those are not player ships ? How should he know that when they said this is a MMO? Im saying is FD tried to be sneaky on those and bring more people in but those people soon realised this game is not for them Im styaing just for the graphics and well...space. But otherwise i simply hate to feel alone in a game.

Im syaing that the trailers tell a "MMO fan" : " come we have massive battles with people you can rob others and demand their cargo and help them if you wish you can do whatever you like in a multiplayer world!!!" And when you actually buy it you realise you hardly ever meet anyone and everyone then eother goes back to EVE or braggs here about this game not being EVE first person. All that because devs wanted to be in both worlds. Tell me of one game whose forums are so mad and caught up in a fight as long as this one about the game constitution(because MP or SP is pretty much the foundation of a game). I dont think you will find many MP games where people demand it to be SP. Nor the reverse. People like witcher 3. Go on their forums. There is not 10000 posts thread about changing core mechanics to make it SP. But you see those here. I wonder why...

 

[TheSpaceTexan]

Great advice, now repeat that to the open advocates who dismissed my 6 hours in open mode on Saturday night, with the opinions based on my experiences

There's like 87 pages of posts, can you repost it here? I'd love to see it. Thanks in Advance. Unless you're referring to that post above.
Also, while some may argue six hours is enough to judge a game, like all MMOs, it takes a lot more time to really jump to conclusions. Especially ones that have you grind your way towards something(s).

I see your points and the points of others, it makes sense. Overall its a simple case of "That book is black" and the person on the other side is saying "No, its red!"

Overall the Book is in truth, Black and Red. There is always several points of view and that in here, needs to be respected and a compromise added.

 

[Jockey79]

So are you telling me that the average Gamer Joe who watches those trailers is going to know those are not player ships ? How should he know that when they said this is a MMO? Im saying is FD tried to be sneaky on those and bring more people in but those people soon realised this game is not for them Im styaing just for the graphics and well...space. But otherwise i simply hate to feel alone in a game.

Well, some research before buying would have told you what the game is - on this thread, page 1, post 3 - I read all of that BEFORE buying in November 2014.
As for the MMO tag, while I disagree with ED having it - ED meets the requirements to be classed as one - if you got something else from MMO, then you're at fault not the game.

 

[rasatsu]

I'm an EVE bittervet, frequenting an EVE bittervet forum of some renown.

They all play SOLO, yet to see any of them on OPEN.

It seems rather obvious to me that some kind of weight should be added to OPEN vs. SOLO/GROUP, and not just community goal progress. It doesn't need to be 50% (except for community goals, that needs a heavy penalty imo), even 10% boost in income would be enough for most people considering how seldom one even meets another player.

Now the difficult issue is how to handle trade items and survey data if one can jump between SOLO and OPEN at will. One of the possible solutions would be to flag any item that has touched SOLO and not apply the boost to them at point of sale/completion.

 

[VR Morgan Grimes]

I didn't say force, I said encourage

 

[ianw]

Oh yeah maybe i jumped to conclusions. Let's analyse the trailers shall we. Wings trailer...PvP all you can see it's about players smacking the hell out of eachother. Ok maybe the launch one is fine, oh noes, it's actually full of PvP isn't it? Oh didn't it actually have a massive war at the end of it with bullets and ships everywhere? Nah im just stupid. Ok last trailer. Capital ships trailer....is there even a doubt that that trailer spells: come we have big ships and pvp? Maybe im just hella stupid sorry for coming in and actually bringing facts i should be just kissing hands left and right

Who were the players you think you saw in those trailers, in a computer game?

 

[Jockey79]

There's like 87 pages of posts, can you repost it here? I'd love to see it. Thanks in Advance. Unless you're referring to that post above.
Also, while some may argue six hours is enough to judge a game, like all MMOs, it takes a lot more time to really jump to conclusions. Especially ones that have you grind your way towards something(s).

I see your points and the points of others, it makes sense. Overall its a simple case of "That book is black" and the person on the other side is saying "No, its red!"

Overall the Book is in truth, Black and Red. There is always several points of view and that in here, needs to be respected.

Here is the final conclusions post I made, I think my in game commentary lasted for the 2 pages before it.
And then was told after my post below that none of it was worth squat in this thread by an open advocate after this post (so maybe about 2 more pages after to skim)

Here we go, some pictures from my trip to Open Mode.
Lave, Diso and Orrere were the most busy systems when I did my rare trade runs - apart from that, unless someone was sending my direct messages, I was alone.

View attachment 38155View attachment 38156View attachment 38157

My list of activities for the evening;

Combat Zone;
Resource Extraction Site,
Rare Trading,
Being Pirated (sort of)
Going AFK outside a busy station (done on purpose),
Lots of travelling.

I was interdicted a total of 3 times, twice by NPCs.
Added 3 people to my friends list and had some nice chats going.
Earned about the same as always.

Few things to note;

I didn't see any ramming going on, or any sort of "griefing" behavior, and I flew all over the hot spots in a T6 with 80T of rares on me.
Everyone I spoke to was very nice and polite.
50Ly+ or more from the hot spots - I was alone. All alone, just like being in Solo.
Some people did seem to phase in/out of my "island" (instance) while in Supercruise.
I always play with Spotify streaming, so I have no idea what effect that had on playing in Open Mode.

 

[stripealipe]

And I've no idea if a solution exists at all...

Was just interdicted in open on my way to Artyukhin Ring in Autahenetsi to collect a measly few federation bounties (was less than 100k) before having a look for a nice system to bounty hunt in. I wasn't paying attention properly so was entirely my fault I was interdicted and it was a Clipper and an unidentified other ship (I didn't look) so decided to run (you'll never take me alive copper!!!, though your comment at me running did make me chuckle ), it didn't end well due to mass lock and me not having a jump target set, anyway, enough funds to cover insurance so no issues whatsoever excepting the fact that I now don't have insurance funds, which leaves me in a position that I can either risk it all (seems rather reckless of me) or drop into solo (I'd rather not) to earn funds to cover myself again. I'm happy to play in open, it's half the fun, but it seems a bit odd to be in a position where I don't want to due to impending doom.

Am I being silly or do I have a point? (disclaimer: it's probably only a very very small point lol)

It probably won't happen again tbh, but hey, shout me up and i'll happily chaperone you on a few runs until you have your next insurance pay covered.

And to the moderators. Did this thread *really* need to be moved to here? The never ending solo/open round and round and round thread? Surely this was simply a valid question by the OP and worthy of simply sitting on its own? It's rather lost here.....

 

[Valethar]

Community Goal systems are always going to be full of hostiles. The bonus to this is that while they're swarming around the systems involved in the CG's, they're not pestering people in systems a hundred or so LY away. Find a likely prospect, bounce out there, and make some trade runs, grab some missions or farm a RES for bounties. You get to stay in Open and make some fast cash with a lower chance of being harassed in the process.

The amount you pay for insurance is minimal. 5% or less of the value of the ship you're flying, depending on the level of discount you have. Personally, I don't think death penalties serve any useful purpose in modern gaming (and I know game devs with the same opinion) but the one we have is low enough to be manageable if you're careful.

 

[nedeaalex]

Well, some research before buying would have told you what the game is - on this thread, page 1, post 3 - I read all of that BEFORE buying in November 2014.
As for the MMO tag, while I disagree with ED having it - ED meets the requirements to be classed as one - if you got something else from MMO, then you're at fault not the game.

I did my research and i knew very well what im buying. Im just sad most people dont actually do that. I could just go to one of my friends, show him those trailers and he instantly cashes in. Then he will be very sorry.
Im not sorry. I just have that awfull feeling of: oh damn would this game not be so damn good if it had one simple thing. Solo separate from Open. After all thats what you all backers wanted in the first place. A SinglePlayer experience

 

[ianw]

I did my research and i knew very well what im buying. Im just sad most people dont actually do that. I could just go to one of my friends, show him those trailers and he instantly cashes in. Then he will be very sorry.
Im not sorry. I just have that awfull feeling of: oh damn would this game not be so damn good if it had one simple thing. Solo separate from Open. After all thats what you all backers wanted in the first place. A SinglePlayer experience

I play in open and i don't want a separate experience, I'm fine with it as it is so don't presume to speak for me.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I did my research and i knew very well what im buying. Im just sad most people dont actually do that. I could just go to one of my friends, show him those trailers and he instantly cashes in. Then he will be very sorry.
Im not sorry. I just have that awfull feeling of: oh damn would this game not be so damn good if it had one simple thing. Solo separate from Open. After all thats what you all backers wanted in the first place. A SinglePlayer experience

Glad to hear that you were aware of what you were buying into. Would that all players were so knowledgeable about the game....

While separating Solo / Private Groups from Open may suit your preference, it would no doubt irk a significant number of players who have knowingly bought the game with the ability to change game modes at will being a desirable feature. I'm a backer - I want more than a single player experience. Therefore, not all backers wanted a single player experience....

 

[Steve72]

Its a call for getting a cheaper ship or downgrading modules as fed up with hearing my ship exploded in station, in res site, boosted into station. Solo is not a guarantee you wont loose everything.

 

[DarkWalker]

All the trailers advertise Multiplayer, there is none who states in the trailer: You can play this solo and you can have a virtual beer with...well nobody cuz every NPC is dull and easy. I know it's not FD's faul for that, they are not AI geniuses and nor do I want them to be. I just want to point out that having the good things of both sides means you have a mixture. It's just like a street dog. It's not a fancy dog with pedigree and all that it's a dog who lives on the streets. Sometimes it hangs around in packs and it's fun for him and sometimes it is lone-wolfing and it is also fun for him. I like to think myself of that dog when playing Elite. I play what is good of both worlds but never the best of one !

Well, for many of us, having the good bits of both Solo and Multiplayer is basically playing in Mobius

Not everyone enjoys adversarial player interaction, you know. Like I've said multiple times, I have no issues with being attacked by NPCs without warning, but a player attacking me without my consent can ruin my gaming session even if the player was courteous about it and kept perfectly in character. It's not just about ED; nowadays I don't even give MMO games a chance unless a way to completely opt out of PvP without any negative consequences exists.

BTW, every time ED's multiplayer is described in advertisements, Frontier makes it clear that going solo is an option.

Oh yeah maybe i jumped to conclusions. Let's analyse the trailers shall we. Wings trailer...PvP all you can see it's about players smacking the hell out of eachother. Ok maybe the launch one is fine, oh noes, it's actually full of PvP isn't it? Oh didn't it actually have a massive war at the end of it with bullets and ships everywhere? Nah im just stupid. Ok last trailer. Capital ships trailer....is there even a doubt that that trailer spells: come we have big ships and pvp? Maybe im just hella stupid sorry for coming in and actually bringing facts i should be just kissing hands left and right

You mean, like how nearly every single game trailer for action-oriented games focuses on the parts and game modes with the most intense action? A trailer that accurately depicts what the player will find is very rare nowadays indeed.

Though I might be the wrong person to argue this to. I've seen so many misleading game trailers (and, before that, box art) that I tend to disregard trailers and make a beeline to the game's written description, and forums/blogs (particularly ones not under the control of the devs or publisher) after that; I tend to only see the trailer after I've already found out how the game plays and what does it offer. Being a gamer since color graphics were considered a luxury does tend to have that effect on people.

So are you telling me that the average Gamer Joe who watches those trailers is going to know those are not player ships ? How should he know that when they said this is a MMO? Im saying is FD tried to be sneaky on those and bring more people in but those people soon realised this game is not for them Im styaing just for the graphics and well...space. But otherwise i simply hate to feel alone in a game.

Im syaing that the trailers tell a "MMO fan" : " come we have massive battles with people you can rob others and demand their cargo and help them if you wish you can do whatever you like in a multiplayer world!!!" And when you actually buy it you realise you hardly ever meet anyone and everyone then eother goes back to EVE or braggs here about this game not being EVE first person. All that because devs wanted to be in both worlds. Tell me of one game whose forums are so mad and caught up in a fight as long as this one about the game constitution(because MP or SP is pretty much the foundation of a game). I dont think you will find many MP games where people demand it to be SP. Not the reverse. People like witcher 3. Go on their forums. There is not 10000 posts thread about changing core mechanics to make it SP. But you see those here. I wonder why...

Is the game described in official advertisement as a MMO in any place besides its Steam tags (where it also has the "Single-player" tag just above)? Legitimate question, BTW, I don't remember Frontier ever officially calling the game a MMO. Well, perhaps in the old pre-order site, but that one also promised an offline single player mode.

And, if you think this forum has conflict, you should have seen some of the PvP versus PvE forum battles I've seen... Heck, the solo versus group wasn't even the hottest issue in this forum; the thread about the removal of the offline mode reached 10K posts in just 6 days, until Frontier banned discussing that here.

I did my research and i knew very well what im buying. Im just sad most people dont actually do that. I could just go to one of my friends, show him those trailers and he instantly cashes in. Then he will be very sorry.
Im not sorry. I just have that awfull feeling of: oh damn would this game not be so damn good if it had one simple thing. Solo separate from Open. After all thats what you all backers wanted in the first place. A SinglePlayer experience

As long as the single player was also offline, sure. For me at least.

But while the single player is tied to an online requirement, then no. If I'm to be forced to be online, I want all the benefits of it. Including freely switching modes without having to make a new character.

 

[Faded Glory]

[snip]
... even 10% boost in income would be enough for most people considering how seldom one even meets another player.

Isn't that a bit of a contradiction? You want more, even though you seldom meet another player? And how often is that player an expert combateer, or perhaps just average and in a wing? You do know that when in solo, it's not unusual (at least for me) to be interdicted and attacked by wings of NPC's, and there are often highly ranked Pythons, Anaconda's and Clippers in the mix. May be no challenge at all to some of the great pilots out there, but they make me work.

Hmmm.. Now I want a bonus every time I'm attacked by a wing....

 

[Jockey79]

I did my research and i knew very well what im buying. Im just sad most people dont actually do that. I could just go to one of my friends, show him those trailers and he instantly cashes in. Then he will be very sorry.
Im not sorry. I just have that awfull feeling of: oh damn would this game not be so damn good if it had one simple thing. Solo separate from Open. After all thats what you all backers wanted in the first place. A SinglePlayer experience

I'm not a backer, I bought in November 2014, game came out in December 2014
I wish I had been a KS backer.

I do honestly think the MMO tag needs to removed, but then again I also don't think games like World of Tanks, Mechwarrior Online, Robocraft and so on (you get the style) should not be sold as MMOs either.
I also gather there is a debate over SC being an MMO or not (the FAQ says no, but the fans say yes from what I have seen - go figure).

I suppose because of the MMO tag people can jump to conclusions with the sales videos - but if folks are clear over what they are buying, then those videos make perfect sense.

Either way, folks who do know still struggle to understand how the game works with 1 BGS and 3 modes. And I'm getting quite tired of explaining it. End of the day, FD are trying something new. If people don't like it, then they don't like it. Nothing anyone can do now, the was built around this idea.
People could start another KS for a style game with a central server that is an open world mmo/pvp game only.