Confessions of a Frustrated Explorer

It's never too late to do something with the 1-click see everything scanner. There's much more that can be done with it to make it more realistic, rewarding and challenging. These kind of games usually attract more knowledgeable people so i don't think a 1-clicky device will bring honor to the title of the game. There's no need to be elite in anything. You only need a million credits.
 
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As all explorers know, the true skill for exploring is patience. Not clicking some button to activate a scanner :)

That aside, I also have always wondered about the jump in quality from basic to intermediate and then the advanced discovery scanner. IMO having finite ranges on all scanners would be fine, BUT all of them should show targets beyond their range as "possible system bodies (out of range)". The word possible is only for flavor to indicate that the scanner could not find an object in range. If you select such an unknown object, you could be shown a trajectory on your HUD in the rough direction (maybe with varying accuracy depending on scanner quality), and would then have to fly that way, scanning repeatedly until you came in range.

The other thing I also think should be changed is the mismatch between objects in your nav tab, target panel, and the system map. If an object is "unexplored", it should not show up with a type icon in the target panel. And it should not show up in the system map either with its type clearly visible. Only once you have flown to and scanned the object it should become visible in the target panel and system map.
 
Yeah, there's definitely something weird about being able to see the planet/body type in System view, then going to the Navigation panel and counting through the Unexplored items to find the Water World or Earth Like World you're looking for.
 
If this is a subject that sees such frequent discussion, that may be an indication of its merit.

Wrong. See Open vs. Solo threads or any thread suggesting we should be able to send/save/send/guard data from deep space exploration. Game play, pragmatism > merit.

People tend to dismiss a valid point for the purposes of playing the "grizzled veteran" card in order to pad their own ego. In fact, my main point is to give you salty-dogs more reason to brag. Let there be a way to differentiate the real explorers from the casual. Give credit to those who are willing to spend the time "in the black." I'm not saying that the ADS is a "win-all," but there is no denying the fact that it is an equalizer. It is one of those mechanics that decreases the skill gap, allowing someone to buy skill rather than earn it.

I know what it's like to spend time in open space, I'm not new to this game. There's no need to throw stats around, simply due to the fact that they don't mean anything in the context of this thread... The ADS throws all accomplishments into doubt and removes the credibility of rank.

Wrong again. Yes, it means something if you have scanned 10 systems or a thousand! In one you could have used parallax, in the other most likely ADS. And because that's precisely the subject, yes, it does matter. It's called experience.

See, in my mind, "Let me go and spend a week by squinting my eyes towards a black background to catch that spot that many a times won't be displayed by the game cause is too small to see, catch it and come back and make a whooping 100,000 cr profit!! Yay!!! Who wants to make tenfold more money by using the ADS when I am acquiring this superb skill?? pfft!..not me!" said no one. Then again, this might be a blatant assumption on my part and I apologize. I instead should have taken the OP as a living proof that said people, do in fact exist and enjoy the game just as much as I do. Because, after all this disdain against it, I imagine that's how you have been doing all your explorations, right?

But it takes one to spot one, and I once, just like you, thought the ADS could be a killer of exploration. The difference is that I also took into account other people experience, and came here and asked the question whether the ADS would kill my exploration experience, before reaching to conclusions of what I supposed was better.

That quickly and radically changed once I went out for my first 2,000 ly exploration. And that's why I whole hearty suggested you to go and do the same. Little I knew you had done it for months, parallaxing.

Another point to be made here is the tragedy of the code. The physics engine in this game is a work of art, but it is wasted art when it is not used to its fullest potential. The ADS allows to ignore the beautiful elegance of the galaxy and simply "grind-out" some exploration. Bring the beauty back to the code and let us use this universe that was so painstakingly and lovingly created for our enjoyment.

Now let's talk of balance for a second. Despite your own personal feelings on the matter, let's take an objective look at the numbers. If it is indeed true that you can earn 66% of the credits without needing to scan at all, then there really is a numerical mismatch. 66% of the money for 1% of the time and effort... It doesn't take a mathematician to spot the injustice there. And what about the first-exploration bonus? I understand that there are a ton of unexplored systems in this game, and an increase in credits may seem unbalanced, but imagine if it wasn't so easy to put your name on a planet anymore. If you want to be the casual explorer you can do so and make some money, but for those with the dedication and love of discovery, make their time worth the effort.

I know that there are many dedicated explorers out there. Every time I see a Reddit post with pictures of nebulae and black holes it makes me smile. No other game I have ever played has had such a high volume of players who have such passion. I'm not asking for greater rewards for those intrepid explorers, I want less rewards for those who don't have the fortitude, drive, and passion to truly earn the right to call themselves explorers.

In selectively quoting my first sentence, you missed the whole point of my second one in that post. Exploration needs many things fixed. But it also has to be consistent and make sense for GAMEPLAY, being this the keyword in any solution. I have said it before and will say it again here: we now can detect exo planets mass, composition and even temperature, thousands and thousand of light years away. In 1,300 years in the future, and BEING in the system already, ADS makes more sense than parallaxing or pretty much anything different, to be honest.

As fellow deep space and long time explorer Pete mentioned above, the skills developed by ADS are different. You learn to listen to planets...to spot terraformables from what not, water worlds from ELP, and even routing your way in the system. I am not sure what kind of skill are we expecting to have or trying to implement here when all what we are talking about is getting BASIC information on a planet -that's all, nothing more at least until landing update gets here.

Conclusion: Any change to the current system will have to imply either: MORE time or MORE money for EXPLORATION that ultimately will be used for NOTHING at all -beyond explorer's reward- once sold in civilization.

As it is right now, we spent weeks and months, for a meager payout in comparison. Try any solution that implies more time, see how that goes....or just read other comments in this thread...you'll notice I am not alone opposing an ADS nerf.

The solution has to come in the hands of PAYING MORE or GIVING EXPLORATION DATA MORE RELEVANCE IN THE BACKGROUND SIMULATION.
 
If it is indeed true that you can earn 66% of the credits without needing to scan at all

It would seem to be about 33% is roughly the value system scan proportion for the least valuable bodies (i.e. icy/rocky planets) - 500 for the system scan and ~900 for the DSS + first. ELWs on the other hand go up to about 90k for a first DSS, so 500 CR is less than 0.5% of the total value.

If you are exploring to maximise the value of data then ELWs, WWs, Ammonia, HMPs and Metal Rich are probably worth scanning along with class 2 GGs and the neutron stars and black holes. After that you are probably better off jumping to the next system because the next system scan is probably more valuable return for the time spent, plus has the potential for finding a high value body. This is why neutron star/black hole farming is so popular because its a guaranteed high return system.

I think the way explorers get remunerated could do with some thought, because I don't think many would see as a desirable way to incentivise exploration. (BTW most explorers aren't in it for the money, but the money from exploration is how you rank up, which I think more explorers are interested in).
 
You know you could get better responses when you drop the attitude?

Caring about the time it takes to explore a system is unrelated with the 'realness' of the explorer.
Using parallax isn't rocket science, but it's dreary and unchallenging in my most humble of opinions.
I have seen more systems, scanned more objects, explored more than you. I could claim that makes me a realler explorer than you. But that would be equally nonsense. What we have here is flavours in exploring. You like the one flavour, which I really don't, and vice versa.

So you like the parallax game. I don't. Lets make a deal. I'll not argue to force you to abandon that game you like, you won't argue to force me into that game I don't like. How's that?

*spits in hand and extends*

Hand accepted. You're right, I should drop the aggressive tone. The Elite Dangerous community is better than any other I have encountered on a forum, and I'm just not used to dealing with civilized people when I post. So.... point to you sir :)

As for the idea of "playing the game we both like," there are some issues in one that can't help but infringe upon the other. This is my thesis: I don't think anyone should be allowed to get credit for a discovery that took one button to accomplish. I understand that parallax isn't rocket science, but it also isn't the only "skill" I'm talking about here. You can use projected gravity, orbital trajectories, and anything else that isn't rocket science (although all rocket scientists do learn all of these things in their schooling... just saying...). Play however you want to play, but there should be a gradient of rewards based upon skill just like combat. I could say "well maybe learning how to dogfight is your thing, but I find it tedious so I want to buy the auto-dogfight module instead." Just creating a parallel here, this is no attack... If you don't want to spend the time searching, then don't. But I don't think that deserves the same rewards.
 
I think the discovery scanners should only ping the objects in the system and not return any other information on them other than they exist and where they can be found. even the pics on the system map should be a question mark or some other graphic that doesn't indicate what the object is. This would eliminate the pop & run mechanic where people just hit the ADS, look at the system map, and jump out when all they see are ice planet icons.

That said, if they were to take that route than the exploration rewards would all need to be buffed, and we would need a reward for asteroid belts too.
 
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Last time I scanned such a large system it took me at least 2.5 hours, but it was spread over 2 stars and was a planetary nebula so I was also posing for selfies :)
 
Exploring doesn't need to be tedious (eg parallax) to involve enough skill to be interesting. The whole mechanic needs to be reworked. Honking & flybys and photo ops do not a complete game make.
 
Exploring doesn't need to be tedious (eg parallax) to involve enough skill to be interesting. The whole mechanic needs to be reworked. Honking & flybys and photo ops do not a complete game make.
Indeed. In fact it could probably be argued that there isn't *any* exploring in ED :(. But without totally rewriting the game cannon I'm not sure what could be done. At best we could remove all knowledge of the galaxy other than there is some star of unknown type in such & such a location. That would at least involve actually finding routes and whilst that in itself might be tedious, once known those star types could be sold & made available to others. Two of the explorer ranks are 'trailblazer' and 'pathfinder' although neither concept actually exists :(

I love trying to find routes through the less dense areas of the galaxy or trying to access really out of the way places. Sadly there is no real reward for either of those other than the same first discovered tag which you can get 500 LY from home (and if you choose your targets on the basis of being hard to reach then half the time they prove unreachable anyway so there is no reward at all....)
 
I just think that given the space and distances involved here, it is just not pragmatic, or efficient enough to go "hide & seek" in space...not fun...

I'm with some of you that don't like the current gameplay, but instead of looking the flaws of the system, try to invert and come up with something better...any model that results from the exercise invariably proposes a yet more painful exploration...for the sake of a very meager skill...cause at the end of the day, it will always come down to press a button....

Also, the physics of space makes it all too impossible or too easy.

The solutions always go like this: "have the planet partially or totally hidden from scanner until you are in range"....when said object can be 250,000 ls distance, I don't even want to imagine....even if I do it little by little, say parallax..."yay! I found an ice planet...took me 20 mins -if I'm quick!" But truth be told there is absolutely no way to know, based on the orbit science mentioned in other posts, if there are more planets or not to be found...we'll never know completed systems anymore...and this should matter!! A lot, if you ask me! I have found ELP that far from the main star!

OP proposes a system led by heat...fine...still I will get some information on the planet...what's gonna be the skill? travelling to it to discover it? and then honk the horn again a la basic disco? Again, this will leave many planets behind...and the heat signature will get boring after a while, cause we will decipher which is which before the end of the day here in the forums... just like we did with the looks and we did with the sounds...

Suppose we go that way...what skill would be gained? That's my problem with these proposals that are essentially criticizing what is in place instead of looking that the options would be far worse...even when you think they won't!

And at this point, what are you gonna do if you change the mechanics, with all the 1st explorer tags?? and the newcomers??? Someone will lose big time...either us our first disco tag, or them, any love for deep space exploration....

"Here son, go and scan those same systems I did, spent double the time -which will also reduce your profit- and have fun" - "how come it has your name already?" - "Well, we had it so much better than you do! because we were here first!"

Not jiving man...it just won't happen...sorry to break it to you like that..is unrealistic..

Let's instead move it forward...because if anything, exploration is up for some things to make it even easier, whether you like it or not....here we go with 1.3 selecting object from map...you know what? That was a skill of mine, knowing exactly how to target based on the system map info...always on point..learned to do that...not any more..

And it will get "worse"....an orrery 3d view of the system with orbits and showing your ocation will be available at some point, as is still in the list and confirmed by DB in the last AMA.
 
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I have lots of ideas that aren't mindless button presses. Ideas that would require you to think, and reason, and guess. And your decisions would have actual consequences for your success and even your safety. Things that would make each system so interesting that the major difficulty of going long distances would be wanting to leave the system you are already in.

It's not a matter of easy vs hard. I agree that arbitrary or even realistic hassles just for the sake of something to do should NOT be the goal. It's more of a question of how much do you want to think while exploring? I find thinking can be fun. I suspect I am not alone in this sentiment, given the active imaginations that most explorers are pressed into utilizing by the vast emptiness, not of space itself, but of lack of anything else to occupy their inquisitive minds.
 
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I'm all in favour of additions to exploration that are skill-based.

I'm very much not in favour of "make everyone hunt down everything by parallax to prove their mad astronomy skillz." Been there, done that ad bleedin' nauseum, I'll take the ADS now. ^^

I suspect Frontier are holding off on expanding exploration now because... ok, well, I expect they're holding off on expanding exploraiton because they haven't thought about it much of late. But if they had thought about it, they'd probably still be holding off because of the forthcoming planetary landings stuff, which is the next big step for exploration. ;)
 
Plus why aren't we paid for scanning asteroid belt fragments seriously wth.

It would be cool if scanning asteroid belts gave information about their composition. Finding a belt with large deposits of (whatever) would be verrrrry valuable indeed.

I also daydream about a few easter egg valuables to find, such as a planetoid that's a carbon crystal. Or perhaps an asteroid that's solid gold.
 
As someone who has been demoted to Can't Find McDonald's, I used the old basic and intermediate scanners, with DSS, for finding objects over 400,000 light seconds away.

And, it was not much fun. I spent hours in single systems.

Gameplay time value>super-detailed exploration. The ADS is there, because people would bail on exploring if it wasn't. I get firsts on objects that were too far out for previous visitors to bother. Or, brown dwarves that nobody wants to waste time on (non-scoopable primaries).

We've already lost the ordinary gamer to other professions. Explorers are an obsessed minority. All the easy targets (of value) within reach of inhabited space have been picked. The mad rushes to the core, far arms, and the nebula's have taken place.

ADS is not the problem. We are. We've run off anybody with less than eight hours a day to game. Look at the triple Elite winner. How much time did that take?

After Yeager broke the sound barrier, it was just numbers after that. We need a new galaxy. I'd pay for one. Don't think Frontier has not though about that.
 
When you device these game mechanics though, it has to be accessible for players who don't know much about exploring. You can't expect a level of knowledge. So you would have to break it down into puzzle mini-games. Which, if done correctly, is not a problem of course. But doing it correctly is the hard part. Remember, you're not the only one who uses it. It has to have a broad support. I might like the ideas you have, but I do think they're quite tricky to implement.

And I'm guessing the complaints of over simplified mini-games would of course pop up. :)

Exactly right. In my mind, the "puzzle mini games" and deductive problem solving don't assume any previous knowledge and actually teach you about science and astronomy in a useful, fun, and profitable way.
 
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Gameplay time value>super-detailed exploration. The ADS is there, because people would bail on exploring if it wasn't. I get firsts on objects that were too far out for previous visitors to bother. Or, brown dwarves that nobody wants to waste time on (non-scoopable primaries).

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I've been exploring for a couple of weeks now and I only have a basic discover scanner (and only just recently acquired a surface scanner). And I scan everything. Granted I've only been as far as the Witch Head nebula. But I'm just piping in because I think you are exaggerating a bit.

Also, personally, I think the whole "first to discover" thing is detrimental to the game.
 
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All the easy targets (of value) within reach of inhabited space have been picked. The mad rushes to the core, far arms, and the nebula's have taken place.

ADS is not the problem. We are. We've run off anybody with less than eight hours a day to game.

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I do feel that way. Not sure how much longer I will be exploring. This is part of the reason why I feel the whole "first to discover" is a detriment to the game. Personally, I think that info should be hidden. There is nothing admirable about "being first" other than that you bought the game earlier than me.
 
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I'm on my second week out of what was supposed to be a trial 1-week exploration trip, my first trip out so I just wanted to see if it was something I would enjoy. I've learned to respect things like Black Holes, Neutron Stars and other objects that will rip you out of sc and try to fry you for breakfast. But I cant give the same respect to the 'Toot & Scoot' explorers, For the first few days I wondered if I was ever going to come across an un-tagged system but wow! the stuff they left behind for me was fantastic, Earth type worlds, water and ammonia worlds, black holes all left un-scanned so much other good stuff they must have been in a hell of hurry to get somewhere and that's heading outwards towards the outer arm. Why are they out there at all, they may me explorers but their not 'Explorers' but just to stay on topic I have to disagree with the op, nothing wrong with using the technology available to you, yes it makes it easier but that's what it's designed to do. Grinding out all those credits to pay for this stuff wasn't so easy so it had better work well or I just wouldn't have bothered chasing 400ls across a system unless I though there was something interesting to discover, in fact I probably wouldn't have come out here at all. For those of you who have the knowledge to not need the aid of good technology you have my deepest respect. :)
 
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You all have my respect. The Vegans, Vegetarians, Omnivores, and Meat Eaters. If you want to parallax, by all means! If you want to toot n scoot, that's fine too. More goodies for me. If you're into OCD, fine by me. And if you're like me and cherry pick the best pickin's (leaving those ice balls alone), that's fine too. I got over the first discovered shiny after my first jaunt. A first discovered just means more credits when I return. I doubt many will even stumble across what I've looked at. Heck, I can't even find what I've already looked at! (I have some logs, but nothing so detailed where I'd be able to easily find my ELWs, black holes, and other interesting stuff).

There is absolutely no skill in exploring. There's some attention to detail (lest you face-plant a neutron), and you can fine-tune your process. But regardless of the steps, there isn't much separating any of us. While I'd like to see more content, making it a more difficult grind has no appeal for me... or probably 90% of the other explorers out there.

That said, I still respect you, if a challenge is what you're after. Kudos, and safe travels, CMDR!
 
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