Immersion Immersion Immersion...

jabokai

jabokai
Forgive the mini-rant but oh my goodness am I ever fed up seeing that word as the panacean excuse and reason for everything, in these forums. And, even more annoying... I've done it too! :p

Seriously, it seems that every argument for something starts and ends with people saying "it's more immersive that way". It's such a non specific word that it doesn't really even say anything considering our individual perceptions of immersion are all different. After all, one man's immersion is another man's boredom, inconvenience, irritation, detraction. You may as well say "it's just better cos it is" - it's as meaningful. Describing why you find it immersive would be a proper argument.

I'm not saying that we don't want an immersive experience because we all do. All I'm saying is that using it as a justification makes no sense given that it's a subjective word.

I know people will carry on using it regardless, as will I probably as I forget my mini-rant! I just thought I'd have a moan, seeing as I haven't had one for a few days. :)

Carry on, and may immersitivity be with you.
 

Cmdr Eagleboy

Cmdr Eagleboy
Well, it was immerse....rant :D

So far all design decisions related to....forbidden word....have made sense. There will be lot of tweaks and frankly that's why alpha is about. Maybe word itself is used too much, but I guess that's people want these days (to be honest, including myself). I know, I know, we didn't need anything for previous games, but if they want to deliver it for this one - why not?

Enjoy holidays ;)
 

jabokai

jabokai
Yes yes, you missed the point though - you cannot point to something and say "that is more immersive than xyz" because perception of immersion depends on the person doing the pointing!

All I'm really saying is explain why you think some feature or other is more immersive, simply saying "it's immersive" is not enough and really doesn't mean anything. :p

Oh, and I don't like christmas! :mad: Bah! ;)
 

DYSEQTA

DYSEQTA
jabokai said:
Yes yes, you missed the point though - you cannot point to something and say "that is more immersive than xyz" because perception of immersion depends on the person doing the pointing!

All I'm really saying is explain why you think some feature or other is more immersive, simply saying "it's immersive" is not enough and really doesn't mean anything. :p

Oh, and I don't like christmas! :mad: Bah! ;)
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The SC forums are that way ----> ;)

Seriously though I really think the overuse of the word immersive actually does come from there.
 

Bambi

Bambi
I think you can definitely explain why something is immersive, but saying that it is immersive by itself doesn't accomplish that.

For example you could say that the way the cockpit moves helps to give you a sense of the weight of the ship and how it lags behind the camera. This improves immersion by letting you think about the ship as something big that surrounds you.

But just saying "cockpits are immersive" as a blanket statement means nothing.

Also worth noting of course that immersion is not a goal in itself.
 

Keeval

Keeval
jabokai said:
Forgive the mini-rant but oh my goodness am I ever fed up seeing that word as the panacean excuse and reason for everything, in these forums. And, even more annoying... I've done it too! :p

Seriously, it seems that every argument for something starts and ends with people saying "it's more immersive that way".

[snip]

Carry on, and may immersitivity be with you.
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I know what you mean - but immersion is purely subjective. Someone can explain why something is immersive to them, but to someone else the same collection of things may break immersion or just be annoying features.

I think the only way to try to please everyone (i.e. ensure that everyone feels "immersed" in the world" of ED when playing is to have choices. However sometimes that may not be practical or cost effective.

For example - the bobble-heads, some people like them and think that they add to the immersion, but others think that they are a distraction. In this case the answer is a simple option to enable them or not (or change them into an Xmas tree :D).

But other cases - like the star occlusion with the frame of the cockpit may not be so easy to resolve.

Frontier have to do the best they can, but they will never please everyone, nor should they. Otherwise we will have a game designed by committee .. and we all know how bad that would be.

I'm not sure what the point of my post above was - apart from immersion is subjective, choices are good, but sometimes you can't have one.

Happy Holidays! :p
 

JackWeaver

JackWeaver
I often think it worth imagining what a game would be like if it was reduced to a text interface. Trading games like Elite have around a long time. I remember typing the code for a game called Taipan on my ZX Spectum. Back in the 1980s that was OK for a computer game.

Why do we now need all the fancy graphics? Because simply because it is possible now, how do we justify this feature or another, how does it add to the game play, how does it add to the IMMERSION. (I will speak its name!) Is there anything more important than these two? (As far the player is concerned).
 
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Allen Stroud

Allen Stroud
jabokai said:
Seriously, it seems that every argument for something starts and ends with people saying "it's more immersive that way". It's such a non specific word that it doesn't really even say anything considering our individual perceptions of immersion are all different.
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Actually they often aren't so different, there are broad themes. The concept is part of my PhD work and there's quite a lot to be said about it in storytelling mechanics. You'd be surprised how many correlations there are.

jabokai said:
Describing why you find it immersive would be a proper argument.
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Or describing exactly what breaks the immersive element for you individually. That identification is very useful, particularly by comparison.

We are speaking of a game in a Science Fiction environment. The rationalisation/realism argument is just as flawed when applied to this, because if all things were the way things are in Speculative Fiction (SF, the over genre term for Science Fiction, Fantasy and Horror), it wouldn't be speculative if everything were possible and understood. However, there does need to be a rationalisation and realism element to how things work so as to hit the immersive sweet spot for the majority.
 

Hamerstein

Hamerstein
To be blunt, I think the use of immersion and it's meaning is completely dependent on the individual's understanding of what the project (in this case ED) is trying to achieve.

Perhaps we need an exam on the ED concept, and if you fail you're banned from posting? ;)
 

huwthomas

huwthomas
Keeval said:
For example - the bobble-heads, some people like them and think that they add to the immersion, but others think that they are a distraction. In this case the answer is a simple option to enable them or not (or change them into an Xmas tree ).
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To the extent that immersion = creating the illusion that the game world is real and living, it's the option that is providing it, and not the bobble head at all.
 

Kroy

Kroy
You can get immersed in a book, music, a film, a story, meditation, singing, playing an instrument, driving. To me, being immersed is for that moment forgetting that you are part of something other than the thing you are doing.

And whilst I agree with the OP that you can't measure immersion reliably, there are definite things that you DO NOT want to happen. In story telling, there is much talk of the "bubble" that you form together with your audience. If a fire alarm goes off, then the bubble is popped. You have to regain focus, composure and draw your audience back in.

In games, there are things you do not want to happen. I'd wager that whilst it is subjective, there are things in particular games that everyone would agree breaks immer This advert is brought to you by Nike All Condition Gear for what every commander needs to stay warm in space sion.

Immersion is not guaranteed - to become immersed you must first be willing to forgoe all that is around you to stay in that moment. Some people will never be immersed, unless they are drugged and plugged in to the matrix. Meanwhile, for the rest of us, it's up to authors, film makers and game developers to do the best job they can and find a happy balance. Usually when you feel that you're being met half-way, your mind is happy to do the rest.
 
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jan

jan
For me to get immersed i need a chill spread down my spine and get goose bumps all over.

From the first time i did listen to elite frontier intro i did know i was deeply immersed in the game even before i even typed my first Commander name or even flown my first space ship. :D
 

Keeval

Keeval
huwthomas said:
To the extent that immersion = creating the illusion that the game world is real and living, it's the option that is providing it, and not the bobble head at all.
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Correct - I was just using it as an example of something that someone would pick that would increase their immersion (in creating the illusion that the world is living and breathing as you say) for some, but others would find annoying. The point I was making is that some things can easily be changed, offered as an option.. but others not no much/easily.
 
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