We have to talk about ED - why it is
- Thread starter Cmdr Eagleboy
- Start date
Planety landings (if we get them) will make or break this game for a lot of people. I know it is certainly the main feature I am waiting for...
I really don't think they could delay release of the game just on this basis alone. They don't have CIG money to burn, they had to release it at some point. For better or worse 2014 December was their best chance, and they took it. Nothing disastrous happened, game is still expanding. I hope some from FD takes time to answer our worries about improvement in this front. This has hurt our expectations, but as long as they keep engaging with us, there's hope.
I think all the people complaining about the youth of today for their expectations are completely wide of the mark.
ED doesn't have:
1) depth of simulation to allow emergent behaviour
-a lot of what simulation is there up until 1.3 is hand crafted, but slow and structural
-compare with GTA where AI people around can interact and end up in fights or car chases around you that you can join in
2) immediacy of fun activities to allow messing about
-again to compare to GTA, you can literally jump in a car and having massive fun in moments
-you can get that to some degree with ED in getting into a fighter, in a RES and doing some bounty hunting, but there aren't too many other places this fun seems designed in.
3) content to 'play'
-the missions are what really let the game down here, we could be in a really different situation with a single person allocated to just scripting new mission types since launch
-compare to something like Skyrim, I'm sure lots of people never play the main quest, but just wander the world doing all the little side quests and exploring. If it was just an empty world with no quests...
If ED had any 1 of the 3 above things would be much different.
However as it is you can't just blame the people playing the game for not getting it. People make their own stories by just wondering the streets of GTA. It's not simply the users.
I still hope ED will get there, but they need to stop on the 'background simulation' and start working on the foreground simulation, but most importantly on adding content to encounter.
ED doesn't have:
1) depth of simulation to allow emergent behaviour
-a lot of what simulation is there up until 1.3 is hand crafted, but slow and structural
-compare with GTA where AI people around can interact and end up in fights or car chases around you that you can join in
2) immediacy of fun activities to allow messing about
-again to compare to GTA, you can literally jump in a car and having massive fun in moments
-you can get that to some degree with ED in getting into a fighter, in a RES and doing some bounty hunting, but there aren't too many other places this fun seems designed in.
3) content to 'play'
-the missions are what really let the game down here, we could be in a really different situation with a single person allocated to just scripting new mission types since launch
-compare to something like Skyrim, I'm sure lots of people never play the main quest, but just wander the world doing all the little side quests and exploring. If it was just an empty world with no quests...
If ED had any 1 of the 3 above things would be much different.
However as it is you can't just blame the people playing the game for not getting it. People make their own stories by just wondering the streets of GTA. It's not simply the users.
I still hope ED will get there, but they need to stop on the 'background simulation' and start working on the foreground simulation, but most importantly on adding content to encounter.
That's actually well made argument spaceJumbofudge. Rep +1
I think a major issue for the younger, brought up on Xbones etc. is: There are no short cuts. No cheats. No mods, to give them an advantage, or an easy route, to the end-game, that again, is basically not there. Not that there should be an end game in Elite, just a set of goals etc etc.
Many of this mentality, will always find ways to; try and beat the system. Ramming is a prime example of this, a way to achieve their goal, even if their goal, is just too bend the rules, take advantage of the loop holes etc. Just to say that they can.
Arry.
Many of this mentality, will always find ways to; try and beat the system. Ramming is a prime example of this, a way to achieve their goal, even if their goal, is just too bend the rules, take advantage of the loop holes etc. Just to say that they can.
Arry.
SimCity: You get money and tools to build a successful, thriving city. How to get there depends entirely on your creativity.
Sims: You get money and a doll to build a house and life around it. Might be rich and famous or miserable. Where to go and how depends entirely on your creativity.
Roller Coaster Tycoon: You get money and tools to create a successful, thriving theme park. How to get there depends entirely on your creativity.
Microsoft Flight Simulator: based as closely as possible to real world data and airplanes, you are put in a plane to experience flying around the world. Where to go and how depends heavily on studying instruments, fly mechanics, airports, real life data. No money involved since you are not creating or building anything.
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Those are 3 of the best Sandboxes ever created, and the best and most popular Flight Simulator ever created in the industry. Let that sink in for a minute and compare those to ED. What does ED has that make it: a)either a sandbox, or b)a Simulator.?
Most of the players in ED are ages 30 thru 50. I think we all are "old gamers" in a way. Truth is that the youngest generations are all for instant gratification, but that argument is getting old and not so generalized specially in a community whose player base is well into adulthood, and had seen many games before. Not to mention this games community gathers the best nerds out there, from astrophysicist, to mathematicians, to programmers. Few games can proud themselves in bringing so much intelligentsia together. You will have some pew pew here and there, but this community is generally speaking, more versed and more scientific than most. Disregarding their point of view just because "self gratification" might be quick conclusions.
The main problem that I see with ED, is that is not a Sandbox! I can't build anything and currently can't apply my creativity as wildly as I could in a real sandbox. Is not the instant gratification, is that, in reality, ALL SANDBOXES HAVE A GOAL, EITHER EXPLICIT (THRIVING PARK) OR IMPLICIT (GET A LIFE)!
There is no such thing in ED!!! There is no specialization enough (explorer, miner, pirate, etc. really?? no) Sandboxes limit creativity for the sake of structure. e.g. Once you start a water park, you would have to sell everything and start over as a, say sci fi park. It costs you almost the save! It has to!! Not in ED!!! Professions mean nothing, factions and all that complex system of politics -and I am talking up to 1.2- brings no impact whatsoever in our actions, in prices or anything!! Same goes with trading!!
FD is giving me an already created park, with some rules they came up with, and telling me to run it efficiently without outright telling me how it works. Finding out "how it works" is the supposed game. But I AM NOT CREATING ANYTHING.
That's not a sandbox and that's the huge, deep wound in ED's heart!
You know who is applying their creativity, to make do with whatever this "park" is? Explorers. We might realize we cant change anything in the galaxy, but at least hey! let's travel it and roam around using our creativity. Let's rename the places albeit only in our forums, lets set goals and create races. But this is not what was intended, or calculated. This was a byproduct of exploring also being neglected like the other "professions".
No, I don't want instant gratification and I doubt most of here do. What we want is a game where I can create my own path, in a creativity fueled thriving galaxy.
p.s. by the way, I am a fanboi as well. Love ED right now but it is in no little part due to a lot of concessions I have to give to the game.
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It boils down to different people want different things, Frontier included.
Frontier don't tell us what the larger picture is because they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they say nothing, they're being secretive. If they say what they plan to do, it's treated like a fixed commitment; a binding contract rather than a gentleman's agreement on what they'd like to do if technical hurdles, time and money allow.
As I've said elsewhere:
Will I get all that? Maybe, maybe not. Do I still play the game and enjoy it? Right on commander!
Frontier don't tell us what the larger picture is because they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they say nothing, they're being secretive. If they say what they plan to do, it's treated like a fixed commitment; a binding contract rather than a gentleman's agreement on what they'd like to do if technical hurdles, time and money allow.
As I've said elsewhere:
Will I get all that? Maybe, maybe not. Do I still play the game and enjoy it? Right on commander!
I completely disagree. People probably end up doing stuff like Ramming because there isn't something more fun to do (obviously discounting the odd psycho who just wants to watch the world burn).
You cannot just blame the users.
I've been playing games since the 80s and game design has moved on as remarkably as game technology. Any 'it used to be better in the old days' is just nostalgic rubbish. Try playing old games you used to love, they almost always don't hold up.
ED isn't even always the equal of the 80s version either - take assassination missions, back in the day this meant going to the right place in the right time and following your prey to somewhere to do the job. Modern ED? Go to a million USSs until you luck on the right one then just fight. 1.3 is an improvement apparently, but still behind the 80s.
Did the original require simulation? No, the prey doesn't have a real job or real reason for going from station to station, they just scripted a mission that felt real, that was involving, that was fun.
It's not just that one aspect either, what about smuggling? They knew in the 80s that the formula was risk+reward, yet in ED there's no point in smuggling because there's no reward.
There's not reason ED can't start putting in more content at less development cost. We need to be honest about the cost of trying real simulation and about the value to the player. We also need to be honest about the quality of the simulation they've managed so far.
You're right. E.g. the good flight mechanics are certainly a major part of the fun factor.
I was just thinking of a lot of games in the past that had very ambitious/fascinating ideas (and arguably epic storylines) but were unsuccessful because the game mechanics were broken
Well, opinions on this diverge. I personally actually like it that I can't be superman in this galaxy. Every other game does that. Every. Single. One. It's so ludicrous it isn't even funny. If I want "superman in space" I play something else (don't get me wrong - that's fun, too! Love me some Tie Fighter now and again. But I think it's great that ED provides an alternative to that).
I dunno. I've been doing the same in ED. I own it since launch, play fairly regularly, and haven't even started to do any of the rep missions for Federation or Empire (and have only been active in one CG). Still having lots of fun. It's just very different from other games - and for me it hits an absolute sweet spot in what it is. The devs certainly have a vision and are working towards that - and I hope they keep going that way.
Nice summary Arithon, repped +1
OT perhaps but it's kinda harsh to call the younger generations unimaginative (whoever said it, I'm not sure who). If that were really true a game like Minecraft wouldn't be one of the most popular games ever.
Maybe you'd have a game called 'Minecrafted', where you just walk around and see the things that the devs have built, with no ability to alter or affect things in anyway.
Maybe you'd have a game called 'Minecrafted', where you just walk around and see the things that the devs have built, with no ability to alter or affect things in anyway.
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FWIW I think that after this update it might be worth their time adding some of the things mentioned by Arithon:
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As A "Car Guy" I would love to see some kind of Tunable (be it mildy) Supercharger/Turbo module for capacitors/speed inc./boost inc. ect Taht would add to not only the sim aspect as well as rp/gameplay and just all out Fun cuz that's what E
is all about or any game really especially with one that has such a Loyal and Concerned (for the right reasons) following. I believe there is a reddit post currently open on the E Sub
Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...ield_cells_are_here_to_stay_then_why_not_add/
is all about or any game really especially with one that has such a Loyal and Concerned (for the right reasons) following. I believe there is a reddit post currently open on the E Sub Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...ield_cells_are_here_to_stay_then_why_not_add/
I'd like a time limited cloaking device that can only be fitted only on a sidewinder. It wouldn't render you totally invisible but instead you'd show up like the heat haze rising off the road on a warm summer's day. Then you could do espionage missions.
I love the Sidewinder. *hugs sidewinder*
lol
I love the Sidewinder. *hugs sidewinder*
lol
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You need to read my other post, in this forum. About expectations. I am NOT blaming anyone, just stating facts. Ramming is done, by players, because, they can. Giving me the, 'I have nothing to do here!' line, just does not cut it. The, I have nothing; I WANT to do!' Is just teddy throwing of the lazy etc. Agreed, some aspects of this generation of elite, need a lot of work to match the 84 standards, but at the same time, it does what it says on the box. Unfortunately, people will always want and demand, more.
My other post, states that all programming issues need to be fixed or removed and need to be sorted before FD add more depth etc., which logically can only offer more little bugs etc.
Arry.
I'm just scared that FD listens TOO much. See, when the playerbase thinks something is wrong, there's lots of feedback, but none when they think FD is right. So, FD end up changing perfectly fine things (Ex- 1.1, NPCs can't steal bounties) for these people, leaving the people who liked these things in the dust. FD is just too, too jolly! They love this game and want to see it move forward, and they're very much linked with the community as they were kickstarted.
FD, I think, needs to put some wax in their ears and ignore the community, at least a little bit more. If they want thoughtful forum threads, the type which they could get in Alpha/Premium Beta/Beta, they could create Alpha/PB/Beta forums for only those backers. I guess you would have to link your game account with your forums account, but it could work. A huge portion of the general community is no longer the original backers, it's the new steam players.
FD, I think, needs to put some wax in their ears and ignore the community, at least a little bit more. If they want thoughtful forum threads, the type which they could get in Alpha/Premium Beta/Beta, they could create Alpha/PB/Beta forums for only those backers. I guess you would have to link your game account with your forums account, but it could work. A huge portion of the general community is no longer the original backers, it's the new steam players.
You seem to have missed the point of the post. The primary reason to play Elite: Dangerous is to play Elite: Dangerous. It's literally a time sink. You log in, fly around, do some stuff, look at the pretty ships, shoot some guys, shoot some space rocks, fly a couple missions, look at the pretty ships, buy a new module, and log out. It's a game for being a game's sake, there's no primary mission, you can change your style/goal/mission as much as you want. There's no end-game, there's THE game.
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I know this is a very hard concept to fathom for most gamers who have lived and died in terms of "success" or "failure" constantly, but you don't win Elite: Dangerous. Neither do you "lose". You play. You live in the Universe, you immerse yourself in the stories, in the politics, in your pilot, or its character, or whatever drives you to play. That's Elite: Dangerous. Maybe as things progress, we'll start to see more directed gameplay available to those who need it, but that's still a ways out, I feel, as there are other things Frontier is currently working on.
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The average Call of Duty/Assassin's Creed/Mario/Final Fantasy/WoW gamer isn't necessarily going to like Elite. The person who is going to enjoy playing Elite is the person who can set their own goals. The person who bets themselves they can make it to the top of that cliff-face, the kind of person who regularly challenges themselves to do something new, or to reach an arbitrary goal with no reward besides acheiving that goal. Changing the ships balance will never change the gameplay, and as GluttonyFang so aptly put it in his/her post, the completionist, the min/maxer, the knight searching for his princess will likely never "like" the current interation of the game. Perhaps down the road we will see more guided content that these players will enjoy, until then, there are plenty of games that provide this experience, you own Elite now, there's no shame in coming back once it meets your expectations.
Please note; I'm a newcomer to the series; not knowing of Elite (as a whole) up until a good friend of mine was playing it through steam (sometime around february of this year) nor do I know of what ED was supposed to be like everyone else does. (In my opinion, it dosn't matter what it was supposed to be at this point, what does matter is what it currently is and where it can go development wise)
While others may not agree with me, I enjoy the wonder of space. When I was younger, I wanted to be an astronaut (among a few other things, but eh), the stars always interested me, my curiosity about what could be in this vast galaxy blew my mind.
Elite: Dangerous gives me (or at least a small glimpse of it) what could be out there. The wonder and beauty of this game is so impressive that I'm always left in amazement at what could be at the other stars in the backgrounds. I plan to go exploring eventually in the game, but right now I'm left in amazement at it since I first played it. Sure, there's a rather limited amount of star systems we can visit (though that amount is still rather mind boggling), but I don't mind, I don't care. While I probably won't ever end up visiting space in real life, I can always dream.
For me, combat is engaging and fun. I grinded RESes to get to a fully kitted Vulture with what remaining to buy a T6 and kit it out a bit. My only issues so far with it is can we please have a buff for the Conda? The subsystems on it are paper. Between you and me; it didn't feel like grinding.
Trading; I suck at it, so eh. I have a pretty good route, but that's about it. Can't comment on something I'm bad at, lol.
Exploration; haven't tried it yet, so I cannot say.
Piracy; not interested in it, so no comment.
Smuggling; Same as pirating.
Mining; Plan to try it some time, not currently though.
Ending comments; To me, the game doesn't feel shallow at all; Landing requires careful maneuvering (especially without a shield.), especially in high traffic areas with lots of players going in and out of a docking area, interactions with other players are both varied and interesting. (Quite amusing to see a bunch of newer players go after another with a 600 bounty because of accidental fire, lol.) I personally believe FD has a very impressive and amazing game and believe it'll only get better from here. Though as I've said before; my only problem with it is why is the Conda's subsystems paper and the Python's and Clipper's subsystems impossible to knock out?
While others may not agree with me, I enjoy the wonder of space. When I was younger, I wanted to be an astronaut (among a few other things, but eh), the stars always interested me, my curiosity about what could be in this vast galaxy blew my mind.
Elite: Dangerous gives me (or at least a small glimpse of it) what could be out there. The wonder and beauty of this game is so impressive that I'm always left in amazement at what could be at the other stars in the backgrounds. I plan to go exploring eventually in the game, but right now I'm left in amazement at it since I first played it. Sure, there's a rather limited amount of star systems we can visit (though that amount is still rather mind boggling), but I don't mind, I don't care. While I probably won't ever end up visiting space in real life, I can always dream.
For me, combat is engaging and fun. I grinded RESes to get to a fully kitted Vulture with what remaining to buy a T6 and kit it out a bit. My only issues so far with it is can we please have a buff for the Conda? The subsystems on it are paper. Between you and me; it didn't feel like grinding.
Trading; I suck at it, so eh. I have a pretty good route, but that's about it. Can't comment on something I'm bad at, lol.
Exploration; haven't tried it yet, so I cannot say.
Piracy; not interested in it, so no comment.
Smuggling; Same as pirating.
Mining; Plan to try it some time, not currently though.
Ending comments; To me, the game doesn't feel shallow at all; Landing requires careful maneuvering (especially without a shield.), especially in high traffic areas with lots of players going in and out of a docking area, interactions with other players are both varied and interesting. (Quite amusing to see a bunch of newer players go after another with a 600 bounty because of accidental fire, lol.) I personally believe FD has a very impressive and amazing game and believe it'll only get better from here. Though as I've said before; my only problem with it is why is the Conda's subsystems paper and the Python's and Clipper's subsystems impossible to knock out?
I have said, that because of the different levels of the game being played and, discussed here in open forums, it creates animosity and confusion. (Yes only over the last few days am I making a note of the 'type' of forum I am reading) I was under the impression, that CG and PP, was open to all. This has little to do with the fact that I am old and stupid, more to do with the 'marketing', PR of things like CG and PP. It is everywhere, in our faces and yet, untouchable to most players reading this.
Arry.