[POLL] Do you like Powerplay (as it currently is)?

[Araviel]

I don't see how you can accuse me of having "turned poll results around". I simply did the math, there's absolutely no interpretation in there, and math doesn't lie. If you like PP that's great, but there's a significant chunk of players who don't. That's not an attack on you, that's just personal opinions which we're ALL entitled to.

I'm pretty sure that when FD spent a bunch of time and a bunch of hype about a major update to their game they intended it to be played and enjoyed by most people. They didn't put in all that work to create something that would only appeal to 25% of players.

So you're saying that because not everyone likes every version of grind, that it's equally fair that a lot of people don't like an additional layer to the game that encompasses every version of grind?

i am not accusing you of turning the poll results, i am accusing you of being to biased to see anything else but your own truth,
and i dare you again to go on and make a poll about exploration or mining, then come back here whit the results and claim that they were a waste of development time and should be removed from the game.

oh and for your information i am not playing PP atm and i am actually quite indifferent about it.
but still i accept it as a part of the game and respect those who enjoy playing it.
my issue here is whit YOU and your hyperbole buddy club,, nothing else.

Edit: i just read this part

I think a misunderstanding you (and possible Araviel) have is that we want it (to use your words) "kicked out of the game" - quite the opposite. We want it improved so that it makes sense and is fun for more people. No-one wants LESS in the game, but we equally aren't going to be interested in mediocrity. Surely even people who enjoy it would want to see it improved?

if this is true then i forgive you, and i am sorry if it was a misunderstanding.
we would also be on the same page as im also quite opposed of mediocrity and think that PP has allot of room for improvement.
just think you have had an odd way of showing it since all the way back to early 1.3 beta i have been under the impression that all you have wanted to do was to undermine FD for adding "content" that you did not approve off.

 

[Kernel Kwatz!]

i am not accusing you of turning the poll results, i am accusing you of being to biased to see anything else but your own truth,
and i dare you again to go on and make a poll about exploration or mining, then come back here whit the results and claim that they were a waste of development time and should be removed from the game.

oh and for your information i am not playing PP atm and i am actually quite indifferent about it.
but still i accept it as a part of the game and respect those who enjoy playing it.
my issue here is whit YOU and your hyperbole buddy club,, nothing else.

And breathe ...

 

[Beetlebum]

i am not accusing you of turning the poll results, i am accusing you of being to biased to see anything else but your own truth,
and i dare you again to go on and make a poll about exploration or mining, then come back here whit the results and claim that they were a waste of development time and should be removed from the game.

Have some rep! Exactly my thoughts.

 

[Jason S]

I did join a power yesterday and flew to the alliance for it. But I found what you were asked to do was not fun. So I went away from the power and back on my trading route.

I do however think power play is a good idea for those that like it and so I say yes to it.

It has inspired me to actually play again as the idea and the pictures bring some life to the game.

 

[hanks01]

There's two points here... firstly if you asked the people who enjoy mining if they think it's great and they don't want to see any improvements to it I'm sure they'd all say it's primitive and it needs heaps of improvements - and yet the proponents of PP seem to think it's a perfect game, needs no improvement, and get quite upset at the idea that the majority of ED players don't enjoy it.

Secondly, noone backed ED because they thought it was gonna turn into an RTS. I'm personally a huge RTS fan and I've been playing them since Age of Empires way back when, I've even got a few RTS's on my cellphone. PP however is not only a pretty crappy RTS (let's face it, it's more fantasy football than age of empires), it's not what I backed ED for... I backed it to play Elite! Even if it was a GOOD strategy game it's still not what I (and at least half the player base) want in a space fighting/trading game.

[edit] There's a third point. As an RTS it's not introducing any new game play - it's using the same old fight/trade/mine/explore mechanisms, so you'd expect that ANYONE who enjoys any one of them would enjoy PP. (in fact when FD were "selling" it to us they said many times that there was "something in it for everyone" because it would encompass all the basic trades). Yet half or more of the players DON'T enjoy PP. Surely you're not suggesting that half of the players of ED don't enjoy any of the basic mechanisms of ED?

Some interesting points here. I don't think everyone who has enjoyed Powerplay would say that it's perfect and needs no improvement, even the best games have areas where they could improve it. There's certainly a few things I'd like to see changed but that hasn't stopped me enjoying it. Just as getting stuck between cliffs, or resetting a glitched quest hasn't stopped me enjoying Borderlands 2 (as a recent example.)

I wouldn't file Powerplay under RTS entirely, whilst the weekly battles of fortification, undermining and expansion play out in real time, the actual results come in turn based form. Putting an analogue to those genres though isn't quite the same due to the nature of the game and the pace it's played. Couldn't really compare it to Age of Empires or the likes of X-com, Fire Emblem or Shining Force. Whilst I'm open to persuasion, I don't see Powerplay making ED any less "Elite" due to it being optional for those that wish to engage in the extra layer.

 

[Sandmann]

i am not accusing you of turning the poll results, i am accusing you of being to biased to see anything else but your own truth,
and i dare you again to go on and make a poll about exploration or mining, then come back here whit the results and claim that they were a waste of development time and should be removed from the game.

I just did the math, I'm not interpreting anything and there's no bias. If you think my math is flawed please point it out. I neither started this poll nor made any attempt to influence it.

As for mining, as I said earlier most people who do mining would be the first to say it's incomplete and primitive (and in fact they do so on numerous occasions, quite loudly).

Edit: i just read this part
if this is true then i forgive you, and i am sorry if it was a misunderstanding.
we would also be on the same page as im also quite opposed of mediocrity and think that PP has allot of room for improvement.
just think you have had an odd way of showing it since all the way back to early 1.3 beta i have been under the impression that all you have wanted to do was to undermine FD for adding "content" that you did not approve off.

I don't think I did anything that requires your forgiveness, but I'm equally willing to forgive your misunderstanding.

All the way back in 1.3b I thought that PP was an odd idea, that it didn't fit in the game, that it added nothing new but unnecessary complexity, and that it was poorly implimented. I said so then and I continue to say so now. If they want to add political intrigue then it needs to be embedded into the existing political system, not a "stand alone" extra bit that doesn't actually DO anything with the game's background politics. Right now we have lines on a map, but the actual "power" doesn't mean anything so there's no reason for players to take on engagement or feel there's a purpose to it. If it actually DID something it'd be much more interesting.

Do I feel that PP as it currently stands belongs in the game? No I don't, quite frankly I think it's currently rubbish. Do I feel that there's room for a good political influence & intrigue system? Hell yes. I'm not arguing for PP's removal, I'm arguing for it's improvement. What FD have given us is half a game with no real reason to play it. If we're going to do political strategy in space let's have a FULL, COMPLETE game and actually give players a reason to CARE about who's controlling their region of space and a way for players to continue to actually PROFIT while supporting their candidate of choice. There shouldn't be a separate "normal gameplay" and "powerplay" with people choosing to to do this or that... the "powers" should be a part of "normal life" and should influence every part of the bits of space they supposedly control. The "powers" should be as relevant as whoever is running the government wherever you live in the real world... not something that occupies your every waking moment (unless you want to work for them), but something that colours every part of your individual life, from the taxes you pay to the laws you follow to the way your area of space is perceived by people from other areas of space.

 

[Sandmann]

I wouldn't file Powerplay under RTS entirely, whilst the weekly battles of fortification, undermining and expansion play out in real time, the actual results come in turn based form. Putting an analogue to those genres though isn't quite the same due to the nature of the game and the pace it's played.

And that I guess is part of the problem.. PP isn't really a complete ANYTHING... to me it seems more like MB and Sandro sat down over a bottle of something tasty and came up with a half formed idea for a political back story, said "yeah that's a good idea" and wrote it up, then just pasted it on top, half formed. It COULD be good. I WANTED it to be good. But it just... aint. I actually liken it more to Fantasy Football than an RTS, but I ran with the analogy coz it was given to me.

I don't see Powerplay making ED any less "Elite" due to it being optional for those that wish to engage in the extra layer.

No it doesn't, but equally it doesn't make it any MORE Elite either. It's like they started designing a game of chess, got half way through it and said "Hey, backgammon is a good game, let's include half of a backgammon game!".

The chess game isn't finished yet...
Backgammon may be fun but we bought it to play chess, not backgammon...
No-one asked for a backgammon game in the middle of their chess game...
And they didn't even finish the backgammon game!

 

[Sylow]

if this is true then i forgive you, and i am sorry if it was a misunderstanding.
we would also be on the same page as im also quite opposed of mediocrity and think that PP has allot of room for improvement.
just think you have had an odd way of showing it since all the way back to early 1.3 beta i have been under the impression that all you have wanted to do was to undermine FD for adding "content" that you did not approve off.

Yea, it seems like the big mistake many defenders of the current PP make: they think everybody who is against the current implementation wants it to be removed. I have no idea, how you come to that (now i would have to censor a whole line of adjectives here) idea. What we want is that it is massively improved.

Some random things:
- Adjust the merit structure. The current system says "be rich and have a lot of time for the game, or get lost". Now, i am blessed in comparison to my friends, my real job only takes me like 55 hours a week, my girl is also a gamer and understands that i spend time in ED and we still don't have kids. Lucky me, but for many of my friends, things look different. They can't invest as much time into a game as me, and the concept of PP gives casuals the slap and tells them to go for another game.
(So yes, indeed, just this week i was forced to send them an email telling them to currently not buy this game, as they obviously are not the intended audience. Which i hated a lot to do, i would've enjoyed flying with them, but with group missions still excelling by absence and all new mechanics being designed to punish the casual player, it was the only honest thing to do. )
- This does not mean the casual player ever should be compete with the top dogs, but since PP currently is the only actually kid of supported multiplayer activity, participation should be rewarded instead of punished. But currently the player with plenty of time spare, who spends far into double digit hours per week in ED and invests a quarter of that into PP is massively rewarded, while the one who due to RL reason can only spend a few hours and invests all of them into PP is punished.

For most of the casual players, one simple move would make all of the difference here: give us a counter on the total of merit ever earned for the power and award power commodities based on this counter. Also base the unlock for the tier 3 equipment on this. Keep the rest (weekly bonus, nominations) based on the weekly effort and the "much time invested" player still has an edge by getting more money and influence, but the casual player doesn't feel punished any more.

- Make participation in PP worth it by just playing, instead of using it as money sink. What i mean is, if i "support" the random "dirty hole at the end of the world blue mafia" by killing one of their enemies, i get a bounts of several thousand credits. If i do that due to a mission of them, i even get a hundred k. When i return to my power after killing two dozens of their enemies so they could take over a sector of space, the reward i get is a tip, barely covering my ammo costs.

So, every bandit group in the game seems to be enonomically better of and more generous than the "major powers" we have. The similar impression is of the powers. For example Hudson is "combat and combat and combat". While even the most remove bandit group not only gives missions to kill enemies, but also buys stuff and delivers it somewhere. Not necessarily legaly, but unlike the "major powers" they seem alive.

Easy fix here: just increase the payout a bit. It doesn't need to yield huge profits, but it shouldn't feel like you waste money on supporting a power without getting anything back. (Especially considering how boring and nondescript the current powers are. )

- Make powers more alive and less cartoony. To do that, just give all powers the full scope of actions for preparation, expansion and control, just weight them according to their philosophy. (So if you kill an enemy for Hudson, you get 15 merit, if you deliver supplies, you get 10 merit. To compensate for that, the goals for the levels would be increased by the factor of 10. )

This is not a complete overhaul and still has much room for improvement, but all of those things would easily be done with very little effort (the system is there already, all that might happen is that the scrollbars get a little longer at some places) but would already go a long way.

 

[Beetlebum]

There's two points here... firstly if you asked the people who enjoy mining if they think it's great and they don't want to see any improvements to it I'm sure they'd all say it's primitive and it needs heaps of improvements - and yet the proponents of PP seem to think it's a perfect game, needs no improvement, and get quite upset at the idea that the majority of ED players don't enjoy it.

Nah, that's not true. As a proponent myself I am not happy with the details how it is implemented, but I like the foundation and look forward to further improvements. PP still needs a lot of work until it is really enjoyable for me, but it is a step in the right direction. But I never read from anyone that he is 100% happy with PP and it doesn't need improvements. Can you prove that?

Secondly, noone backed ED because they thought it was gonna turn into an RTS.

I backed for a living, believable galaxy that the players would be able to influence a little. How the devs do this in detail, I left up to them.

I'm personally a huge RTS fan and I've been playing them since Age of Empires way back when, I've even got a few RTS's on my cellphone. PP however is not only a pretty crappy RTS (let's face it, it's more fantasy football than age of empires),

It isn't an RTS at all. There are weekly turns.

it's not what I backed ED for... I backed it to play Elite! Even if it was a GOOD strategy game it's still not what I (and at least half the player base) want in a space fighting/trading game.

Then half of the playerbase is free to ignore the aspects of the game that the other half enjoys. This is the power of Elite. Don't like mining, like 80% of the playerbase? Don't do it. Simple as that.

 

[Ervig]

Just a small fyi: I created this poll as unbiased as I could think of. I just wanted to know people's opinions.

My personal opinion: I don't like what PP currently is. Do I want it removed? No, definitely not! I want it in game improved with all the great ideas on this forum.

 

[Sandmann]

Nah, that's not true. As a proponent myself I am not happy with the details how it is implemented, but I like the foundation and look forward to further improvements. PP still needs a lot of work until it is really enjoyable for me, but it is a step in the right direction. But I never read from anyone that he is 100% happy with PP and it doesn't need improvements. Can you prove that?

OK not trying to be a smart ass here, but you're not making sense. What are you saying you're a proponent of now, PP or mining... or both? Can I prove what, that you've never heard anyone say that he's 100% happy with PP? Uhhh no, I can't do that. I've never heard anyone say that either. However the way many proponents respond when people like myself (and there are MANY) say we don't like or enjoy it and we'd like it improved, you'd swear we'd suggested that FD should murder their parents or something. Noone's saying it should be removed. We don't like it the way it is and we want it IMPROVED... same as most miners want mining IMPROVED, not removed... as do most pirates, most pvpers, etc etc etc ad nauseum.

I backed for a living, believable galaxy that the players would be able to influence a little. How the devs do this in detail, I left up to them.

So for you a living, breathing galaxy is one in which "powers" don't actually exercise any significant changes to their areas of space and can safely be ignored, they expect people to work and support them at their own cost and foregoing profit, and they exist as separate entities to the previously existing political structure?

It isn't an RTS at all. There are weekly turns.

OK, so it's a turn based strategy game. Are you really going to argue semantics now? It's not even a GOOD turn based strategy game. One thing it's NOT is anything to do with a Space travel/combat/trading game which is why we bought into and backed Elite in the first place.

Then half of the playerbase is free to ignore the aspects of the game that the other half enjoys. This is the power of Elite. Don't like mining, like 80% of the playerbase? Don't do it. Simple as that.

Riiight... so because we don't have to do it we should like it and approve of the direction that Elite is going? The poll asked "Do you like PP?" It didn't ask "should we remove it" or "are people who like PP somehow less deserving" etc. This isnt' an attack on you. This is an attempt to improve PP so that at least the majority of players are not against it. Wouldn't that be nice, if they could improve it so more people liked it? Or are you so dead set on noone touching it that you're happy to have more than half the player base disliking it?

In the poll you asked "Do you like Powerplay (as it currently is)" and now you make out of it that players don't like the idea of PP at all?

A: -I- didn't ask a damn thing. It's NOT my poll.
B: A significant proportion of players answered that they DIDN'T like it. They only answered that they don't like the way it is NOW. Noone mentioned liking or disliking "the basic idea of it".
C: The poll asked who liked it. To find out how many people liked it, you have to compare the number of people who liked it to the number of people who either dislike it or don't care about it. The number of people who liked it is less than the sum of the people who didn't like it and the number of ambivalent people. Learn basic mathematics.

 

[Beetlebum]

editeddd

 

[Philip Foster]

I like it if for no other reason than the improved optimisation. A few stutters here and there, one nearly got me killed but otherwise nice and smooth on my lappy. I also enjoyed the Diamondback Scout.

Not so sure about pledging yet. Might wait until my mate gets his prismatic shields and leaves the Empire. I am leaning toward an Alliance pledge but not sure if I can be bothered. I like doing what I am doing at the moment.

Oh. And it was a free download. What's not to like?

 

[Beetlebum]

A: -I- didn't ask a damn thing. It's NOT my poll.

Ah, sorry. Mixed u up there. My fault. I will answer the rest later.

 

[Sandmann]

I like it if for no other reason than the improved optimisation. A few stutters here and there, one nearly got me killed but otherwise nice and smooth on my lappy. I also enjoyed the Diamondback Scout.

Not so sure about pledging yet. Might wait until my mate gets his prismatic shields and leaves the Empire. I am leaning toward an Alliance pledge but not sure if I can be bothered. I like doing what I am doing at the moment.

Oh. And it was a free download. What's not to like?

Yah there's a lot to 1.3 that's good - noone's arguing that. I believe the OP made a point of clarifying that the poll is ONLY about the Powerplay aspect of 1.3 and not about any other part of it.

- - - Updated - - -

Ah, sorry. Mixed u up there. My fault. I will answer the rest later.

As you like. I'll read it tomorrow, time for bed here.

 

[ste]

I voted - I joined one of the powers (and played Powerplay) and am indifferent about it.

I'm a bit lost by it all.
What exactly should the average player be doing?
Whats the goal?
Am I helping?
Am I needed?
Whats the point of preping somewhere that has prep coming out of its eyeballs?
Do we just wait around each week for our territory grow?
Why can I no longer fly to Sol because I'm considered hostile?
Am I better off not being in a power?
What has all this got to do with Elite?

 

[Beetlebum]

What are you saying you're a proponent of now, PP or mining... or both?

PP of course.

Can I prove what, that you've never heard anyone say that he's 100% happy with PP? Uhhh no, I can't do that. I've never heard anyone say that either. However the way many proponents respond when people like myself

Don't act like you had then. You said that every PP proponent doesn't want PP improved, yet you are not able to show one quote that proves that. Besides, as a PP proponent who wants PP further improved, I am living proof that you are wrong.

We don't like it the way it is and we want it IMPROVED... same as most miners want mining IMPROVED, not removed... as do most pirates, most pvpers, etc etc etc ad nauseum.

I agree with you here. PP needs a lot of improvement.

So for you a living, breathing galaxy is one in which "powers" don't actually exercise any significant changes to their areas of space and can safely be ignored, they expect people to work and support them at their own cost and foregoing profit, and they exist as separate entities to the previously existing political structure?

As I already stated, the details need a lot of improvements, but I appreciate the foundation. All your points are valid, though. My main concern is that the link between the powers and the rest of the game is too artificial, especially with the background simulation in mind.

OK, so it's a turn based strategy game. Are you really going to argue semantics now?

Yes.

It's not even a GOOD turn based strategy game.

That's another story. But PP could turn into one.

One thing it's NOT is anything to do with a Space travel/combat/trading game which is why we bought into and backed Elite in the first place.

For me the star of the game is the galaxy and everything that makes it richer is highly appreciated.

Riiight... so because we don't have to do it we should like it and approve of the direction that Elite is going?

Uhmm... no? But maybe you could appreciate that others like it? There are many features in the game I don't like and therefore not choose to use.

Wouldn't that be nice, if they could improve it so more people liked it? Or are you so dead set on noone touching it that you're happy to have more than half the player base disliking it?

So you don't want PP to be removed, but changed. How? As the boardgame is the core concept of PP, I would not assume that you would want to remove it entirely? If so, the change would qualify as removal. I don't know if I wanted to go that far. But I am always open for new ideas.

A: -I- didn't ask a damn thing. It's NOT my poll.

Yeah, lol. Sorry, mixed u up with the OP.

B: A significant proportion of players answered that they DIDN'T like it. They only answered that they don't like the way it is NOW. Noone mentioned liking or disliking "the basic idea of it".

Yeah, I mixed something up there. I was in a hurry when I wrote that, I am sorry about that.

C: The poll asked who liked it. To find out how many people liked it, you have to compare the number of people who liked it to the number of people who either dislike it or don't care about it. The number of people who liked it is less than the sum of the people who didn't like it and the number of ambivalent people. Learn basic mathematics.

I don't have a problem with the numbers, but with your logic conclusions. The poll is a pure joke and says almost nothing. If people were asked whether they liked the stations, the outcome would most likely be similar. But that could mean anything. Doesn't they like the lack of variety, the docking system, the speeding rules, the animations?

Maybe 80% of the people are totally fine with the boardgame stuff, but don't find the characters appealing or want a few more bonuses or don't care for politics at all (which means even the best implementation couldn't do anything about it)? How could you know?

The thread discussion here says a lot more than the poll. My impression is, that many people don't get how PP works or what it is all about. It just doesn't seem very accessible as it is now, so many people gave up on it.

 

[Araviel]

Yea, it seems like the big mistake many defenders of the current PP make: they think everybody who is against the current implementation wants it to be removed. I have no idea, how you come to that (now i would have to censor a whole line of adjectives here) idea. What we want is that it is massively improved.

i happen to belong to the later group, and not the former so i know very well that its not everybody as that would include myself.
but it is clear that there are those who would like to have non of it and does everything they can to lobby against it.
and if one wants to improve something then one does not go and question its existence in the first place (i am sorry sandman, it just shines through to much and my apology is withdrawn)

 

[Granulated]

Solo players should not be allowed to affect Powerplay at all.

(I play solo most of the time by the way... just to avoid lag/griefing)

 

[Starender]

Solo players should not be allowed to affect Powerplay at all.

clearly .