The Death Penalty: would Elite Dangerous be better off without it?

[daygobah]

Dying in Elite Dangerous can be punishing. Insurance costs for the larger ships can be tens of millions, explorers can lose months of gameplay due to one interdiction or collision, traders can lose both their ship and their cargo due to death, bounty hunters can lose hours of bounties due to one bad decision. Because of this it's only natural that players attempt to minimize the risks in order to not lose everything, because building up to that Anaconda can take months of real world time. Exploring out to the far reaches of the galaxy isn't quick nor simple to do. This tension, this risk, is part of what has always made Elite a fantastic game, much like how similar risks make rogue-likes so engrossing to many people.

But this version of Elite is also in an online and persistent universe. There are no save game files, there are no takebacks. And yet even though we have one online galaxy the game is divided into separate worlds: those who play together, and those who play alone, and these two worlds do not have equal risks versus rewards.

I see lots of posts daily complaining of player greifing, lack of people around in game, open versus solo/private, Power Play not being worthwhile, etc. Most of these issues, when boiled down to their root causes, are simply due to the death penalty. High risk versus low reward. It's what chases explorers and traders into solo mode, it's what prevents people from pledging to a faction power, it's what keeps the combat people grinding merits in solo as opposed to open. So, what if death wasn't such a big deal?

Just imagine it for a second. No death penalty other than being kicked back to the last station you were docked in and losing your cargo. No insurance cost, no risk of getting kicked out of your clipper and back into a sidewinder, no weeks of exploration taken away by a wing of players, no loss of bounties for attempting to bite off more than you can chew at that nav beacon. What would an Elite like that be like? Would it be a better game or would it break the game completely?

Why do we play ED? For most of us, I'd wager at least 90%, we play to have fun and enjoy ourselves. With that in mind, would the game be more fun or less fun with the only penalty for death being loss of cargo and a quick trip back to where you came from?

Think about it that kind of game. Traders who don't give up playing due to pirates. Explorers who risk dogfighting with hunters stalking community goal stations. Power Play hot spots full of PvP. Miners arming themselves and brazenly flying about in open mode. With an online galaxy full of people flying around it now due to the risks being more equal to the rewards, would we even need a solo mode?


Would that kind of Elite Dangerous, one with very little penalty for dying, be a better and more fun game, or not?

The game would suck without the insurance part of it.

Now open play sucks because of the rammers ED needs to change something about that aspect. I play solo because it sucks in open play. I would rather play in open but because of the idiots ramming i dont.

Also if you dont keep enough money on hand for at least 2-3 rebuys your dumb anyway.

 

[CMDR Holycow]

If you're an unaffiliated CMDR with a clean record that was attacked and destroyed by a Wanted CMDR outside of any combat zone: no death penalty, or more specifically no rebuy cost. Making someone who has been murdered pay their own rebuy cost is punishing the victim, not the criminal, and needs to be changed if Frontier and/or players want more people in Open.

No.......

 

[khaoste]

I'm one of the mads who are waiting for Iron mode, so, it's better if I don't answer to your point, OP.

 

[Arkos Valerian]

Buying a T9 with just barely enough credits to fill up the cargo hold and then flying to another system in a ship that handles like nothing else, knowing that if something messes up you are back in a sidewinder. <----- That is the real meaning of terror and fear, and without it I would have dropped the game long ago.

 

[Lord_Crazy]

Death is not too risky, that's called insurance. Now some professions are exceptionally risky (thinking about PvP) because they are inherently very dangerous. But most of time you don't die or if you do you recoup your loss. If you can't recoup go back to a smaller ship. I actually currently enjoy my Courier, it's cheap and not worrying about credits gave me a nice break!

 

[Deleted member 94277]

I didn't even read the OP argument, but death should mean death. I'd love if this game had an Ironman mode, where death would mean a save clear. I've read somewhere that they plan to implement this in the future, if that happens, I'll never play any other way.

EDIT: Okay, now I've read it all,

Well, if that was the case, the game would feel like singleplayer, since it would work much like a checkpoint based game. But I don't know how the MMO component would play out; maybe the game would become a haven for griefers, maybe pirates would be less of a hassle and pirates themselves would have more reasons to pirate.

What I do know is that death would be exploited to hell and back. For example, death would, in effect, become a hearth-like ability: I'd travel to the other side of the galaxy, explore everything in between and when I felt tired of it, would just dive in a star and spawn back at home, with all that sweet exploration data.

 

[Lucifer Hate]

No exploration data should not remain. That would be exploitable.. You go out across the Galaxy getting data and get to lazy to fly back. You commit suicide and sell data as the Asp is not very expensive on insurance then rinse and reoeat another direction. Quit trying to fix the parts of this game that actually do work and work on suggestions to fix what is truly broken.

 

[JoeShmo]

No exploration data should not remain. That would be exploitable.. You go out across the Galaxy getting data and get to lazy to fly back. You commit suicide and sell data as the Asp is not very expensive on insurance then rinse and reoeat another direction. Quit trying to fix the parts of this game that actually do work and work on suggestions to fix what is truly broken.

But losing data on "death" is broken....

How hard is it to put your Data Storage in your ejection seat?

 

[Vasious]

People already use the "Get in a Sidewinder and die" to Remove bounties.
Why not just do away with any penalty.

 

[M00ka]

Agree with the majority here, I like the current system. You have to monitor your worth, if you can't afford insurance lets say, then it is your fault, no one elses. Same goes if you are flying around with a few million in bounties you haven't bothered clearing. Exploration data I think is different because at times you can't clear it but it is a risk every explorer accepts I think.
.
What I would like to see is a hardcore mode: if your ship gets destroyed you spawn back at the station with a sidewinder or eagle, and the starting 1,000 credits. The only thing you retain is your ranks. Have it as an option in open (or another persistent universe so you will have the choice of open, solo, hardcore etc.).

 

[Jaeger]

It would be a much better more engaging game.

Except cargo should be split some being spilled in space and some reappearing with you at your last station.

It should be difficult to get from station A to station B, combat should be required for the most profitable runs. There should be lots of competition for the cargo that is spilled.

If the game was designed around that kind of dynamic instead of egregious death penalties that stifle risk taking and engenders boring risk aversion in gameplay... It would be a good engaging game.

Much better the the travesty of grief mechanics that it has been built on.

- - - Updated - - -

I didn't even read the OP argument, but death should mean death. I'd love if this game had an Ironman mode, where death would mean a save clear.

There should be an IronMan mode for you. Unfortunately instead we are all forced to suffer semi iron man mechanics. Worst case scenario.

 

[Deleted member 94277]

There should be an IronMan mode for you. Unfortunately instead we are all forced to suffer semi iron man mechanics. Worst case scenario.

I agree 100%.

 

[Cmdr Heizenburg]

So while I agree that losing exploration data on death is a bit harsh, if you removed that then there would be no reason for explorers to make the return trip... They could just fly into a Sun when they think they have explored enough, spawn back in the last station they were in, and sell the data, which even with rebuy costs some will still take it over days and days of flying back to a station. Not saying many would, exploreres seem to be the most honest crowd in this game, but some would use this exploit.

 

[Jaeger]

There is no risk when you lose playing checkers, when was the last time thousands paid $60 to to play. The risk adds value to what you are doing, without risk your goals have little worth.

No that's specious. The risk adds no value or meaning, the event of destruction takes away any effort invested. That's adding grief not value or meaning.

Destroying something does not give it value. It's a dumb idea and it's ruined what could have been a good game.

 

[Cortechs]

I was thinking about this over the weekend. Many MMOs that have PvP remove or reduce the penalty if you are killed by a player, but leave the full penalty for PvE deaths. I have only been playing in solo so far, and it's hard for me to justify going into open when I'm going to have to pay 2-3M a pop every time a player kills me.

 

[JoeShmo]

People already use the "Get in a Sidewinder and die" to Remove bounties.
Why not just do away with any penalty.

Except you can't do that. Your bounty resets to its max timer when you die.

So while I agree that losing exploration data on death is a bit harsh, if you removed that then there would be no reason for explorers to make the return trip... They could just fly into a Sun when they think they have explored enough, spawn back in the last station they were in, and sell the data, which even with rebuy costs some will still take it over days and days of flying back to a station. Not saying many would, exploreres seem to be the most honest crowd in this game, but some would use this exploit.

Considering there is no added penalty for dying 10k ly out in the outer edges of the galaxy, compared to dying 300km from a station ...there are a lot of things "exploited".

How long should it take for a "rescue" ship to magically stumble onto your wreckage and haul you back to civilization ( before you ran out of oxygen / food / water / etc. ) , when it would take days or weeks just in travel time to get to you?

But you appear in the last station you visited instantly when you die ^.^ .

 

[Cumquat of Pain]

There are multiple problems with both sides of the argument. They way credits work in Elite is a bit funny, but is very similar to your standard RPG. Essentially Credits = XP. If you lose too much XP you can no longer wear that rare awesome equipment you could before. It makes sens.

Look at the various arguments. If there was no penalty to death, a lot of the flavor players want would be gone. As it is, you can nearly avoid the penalty by using some very capable "cheap" ships. Some of the best combat ships are very cheap. If you die, it hurts a little, but generally not a problem if you have some cash reserves. Honestly, flying around in a Viper is still one of the most fun things to do.

But, I mentioned cash reserves. Up until now there was only one way to amass money: trading. To do that, you would generally need a minimum of a Type-6 and a significant investment to eek out some money. However, the recent 1.3 patch is offering some very nice missions available that have some nice rewards. 200K for an assassinate? With PowerPlay you can get various power bonuses for trading, bounty hunting etc. In Lavigny-Duval, right now Bounties are worth 50% more. So it can be done and with those cheap ships it works well and you can enjoy the game properly.

The big ships = higher reward = higher risk. My lowly ~E/D grade Python is a glorified hauler that can barely defend itself. But it can land on medium pads and haul 224 cargo over 130LY in 12LY jumps. But replacement is around 3mil just for this right now (non-founder/beta) + 3mil in cargo. But then I make close to 1mil/trip. The risk actually isn't too high, but I'm not dumb enough (nor rich enough) to go throw this thing into the middle of a combat zone right now.

So what about permadeath. My wingmate ran into that a while ago. He had worked himself up to an ASP and left himself enough credits for a buyback. Too bad he died twice in a row. He essentially lost everything and restarted. It took him a bit, but he was able to do the right things to get himself back into an ASP within a week.

But, in general, I will still mostly play PvE in private. This is due to the negative interactions with people. People who say nothing and then blow you away just for the laugh. Those people are toxic to the game and provide nothing. If I died hauling cargo after trying to run from a pirate, fair game. Those other guys, no fun. But, it's the internet. Permadeath may actually work to deter those guys.

 

[mossfoot]

There should be an IronMan mode for you. Unfortunately instead we are all forced to suffer semi iron man mechanics. Worst case scenario.

Insert obligatory plug for the Pilot Ejection Table

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=107694

 

[Robert Maynard]

People already use the "Get in a Sidewinder and die" to Remove bounties.
Why not just do away with any penalty.

.... or add the difference between the insurance rebuy of the ship used when the bounty was gained and the insurance rebuy of the ship used when the bounty was claimed (if the former is greater than the latter, of course) to the bounty itself....

 

[Mephane]

What if all what the OP were implemented... but only when being killed by a player? No loss of anything when killed by a player, not even cargo (dropped cargo, of course, won't reappear if a pirate still kills you after you dropped some cargo). Lot's of games forgo their death penalty only when a player is killed by another player, after all. The biggest disincentive from Open Play would immediately vanish.