Getting wanted lvl by hitting wanted enemy before its scanned... really?!

[EpaL]

I don't see that at all. I see the logical extension of the games mechanic. You must take the good with the bad. If you have a bounty, any other BH must verify your their target. Giving you time to get off the first shots.

The logical extension of BROKEN mechanics perhaps but you're trying to promote simplicity and unfairness over what any sane and normal person in the real world would expect.

Scoring bounties off of NPCs shots is NOT the same as getting charged with murder (with a 5+ day cooldown) over an errant / premature 'graze' (NOT kill shot) of a wanted criminal.

Objectively, I get your point but subjectively, it's stupid.

 

[M00ka]

I don't see that at all. I see the logical extension of the games mechanic. You must take the good with the bad. If you have a bounty, any other BH must verify your their target. Giving you time to get off the first shots.

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What he said (rep given for saying it more eloquently than I evidently did )

Oh so because I may receive bounties for fights that an NPC finishes for me, ipso facto I should be happy with being charged with murder for a crime I LITERALLY didn't commit (remember: I stopped firing once I realised my mistake) and even though everybody else there was perfectly justified in killing him because HE WAS A WANTED CRIMINAL? All because my timing was a bit off?

Again, you're conflating two ideas that are unrelated in an attempt to justify broken mechanics.

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You got fined for shooting an target you didn't know the current criminal status of. Maybe he was wanted, you didn't know that before your itchy trigger finger went to work. You only discovered he was wanted AFTER THE FACT. I don't care if the entire Security Force of the system is attacking one ship, I won't engage until I have scanned. Anyone that does is not only asking for trouble, they deserve it as well.
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Take this scenario (it happened to me last night some backward system near Leesi). Dropped into the Nav Beacon, saw two Anacondas slugging it out. As I wasn't allied, all were orange. Now I could have done a you and just opened fire on one of them, because using your methodology, one of them had to be wanted. But after scanning each Conda, found out that they were BOTH Security Forces, and therefore Clean - guess one must have clipped the other (or someone slept with someone else's wife lol).
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I am having a hard time trying to comprehend why so many can't wait 5 seconds to scan a target, it isn't a long time, in fact it is a very short time. In a furball, yes shots may hit the wrong target, just accept the penalty, deal with it, you as the Commander is the one that screwed up by lacking situation awareness, poor aim and bad trigger control.

 

[Spam]

Wow, this thread is something else.

This isn't Space Invaders where everything you perceive as a valid target IS a valid target. There are Rules of Engagement.

Be thankful that you have an onboard computer that lets you scan a target, look up its designation/local system status and give an appropriate engamement level indicator all in a matter of a few seconds. Or instantly if the target actually lands shots on you.

Some famous bloke once said:

“The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.” Albert Einstein.

Lets see if you can change.

As for people complaining about a possible Wanted status of a target before a scan completes matters - you bloodthirsty gits. Patience....

Or, 3 letters to answer all of this nonsense. CQC. Instant gratification and justified? psychopathy.

 

[Karakhian]

The Authority of a system places bounties on ships.

The Authority knows who it placed bounties on so when a ship reports a crime being done to it, the Authority knows to either ignore those reports or place bounties on the offending ship. Crimes are reported by the defensive ship (that's why you have an option to disable reporting)

If the authority knows this then the act of you scanning a ship is for your benefit and peace of mind. Being Wanted is not a legal quantum state. It is something that is determined regardless of your scanning the ship. Since you can't commit a crime against a wanted ship, shooting them before scanning them should not be a crime.

This is a broken game mechanic.

There's a fundamental disconnect here over how people perceive a criminal act.

You're saying that whether it's a crime or not is determined by whether the victim has a bounty on their head. I'm saying the only thing that's relevant to determine whether you committed a crime is whether you knew they had a bounty (in other words, that they're a criminal).

It's irrelevant whether they have a bounty or not. If you didn't know that, then you're also committing a crime when you open fire. Your request for Wanted status is made to the jurisdiction, and if that hasn't completed then they know you opened fire without being aware of the bounty. The target of your fire being Wanted is not a legal quantum state. It's also irrelevant. Because whether you knew, knew for sure, they were a criminal is not a legal quantum state either. You didn't know. You opened fire. You get a bounty.

This ties in with how I understand the law today - intent is the difference between murder and manslaughter. It completely makes sense to me.

 

[Karakhian]

To all those defending this game mechanic, please explain to me how this makes any sense:

Yesterday I was fighting in a HIRES, making lots of bounty and generally have a good time. I came across yet another NPC who was scanning me and making all those 'Yaa-haarh' piratey-like rumblings. As per usual, I started scanning him but accidentally opened fire on him before the scan had finished. I copped the usual 600cr fine, wanted status and muttered a few choice words under my breath before boosting away before the other NPCs could start firing at me.

The problem: as we was Wanted, the other NPCs opened fire and killed him but because I'd hit him first, I got a 6,000cr fine for murder!

Now I have to wait 5 frickin' days for the measily 6,000cr fine to be payable which basically means I'm sin-binned in E for the better part of a week.

TL;DR: Pressed the trigger a split second too early on a Wanted NPC, have to wait 5 days before I can go back to making CR again.

I love you FD but this is makes absolutely no sense :-(

If a ship expodes soon enough after you shoot red-hot supersonic metal at it or carve into it with lasers, the police are pretty much going to hold you responsible for that. Along with everyone else who shot at it, of course - unless they already knew the ship had a bounty.

You're looking at this purely from the point of view of how the consequences of what you did affect you. You shot at someone and seconds later they blew up - yes, that goes from assault to murder. Because you were actually trying to kill that ship, weren't you? You had it selected as your target and you opened fire. And you didn't know for sure that it was wanted at that point. You committed a crime, so in that jurisdiction, you're a criminal.

No, you're not sin-binned. No, you're not prevented from making credits. There are literally thousands of jurisdictions. There are a huge number of ways to make money. You are wanted in one of them. You could still actually make money there. But you've got thousands of other systems and stations to pick from and work from.

 

[Karakhian]

That's to think that your crime is that you didn't check in if the person you shot at was a wanted criminal. Who places your criminal status? The authority who knows already that the person you shot was wanted. There is no uncertainty on their part. You did nothing wrong by shooting a wanted ship. Whether you knew for certain that it was wanted is not an issue. The ship was wanted absolutely. End of story. The mechanic is broken.

There's no uncertainty, no. They know for certain that you fired on a ship without knowing its wanted status. It is completely irrelevant at that point whether the target is a criminal or not. You are a criminal for doing that. You are someone who just opens up on people without knowing whether they have a bounty or not. There's hardly any other behaviour that could more clearly be considered criminal. Whether you knew for certain that they are wanted is exactly the issue when deciding whether you've committed a criminal act.

 

[excalibus]

for the OP

I turn on the tube and what do I see
A whole lotta people cryin' "Don't blame me"
They point their crooked little fingers ar everybody else
Spend all their time feelin' sorry for themselves
Victim of this, victim of that
Your momma's too thin; your daddy's too fat

Get over it
Get over it
All this whinin' and cryin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it, get over it


You've been told what the game mechanics are, you have chosen to ignore the mechanics and then you whine and claim that the mechanic is broken when in reality it is your own gameplay that is broken...
There is one very good reason why this is happening... Consider this ... If you scan them first then your computer KNOWS they are wanted and then the police KNOW you have been properly informed they are wanted because when you perfom a scan you are actually contacting the authorities computer network and requesting a status of the target...

Your arguements about supposed real world scenerios or 'makes sense to me' scenerios are totally invalidated because the game has a set of rules for confirming a targets status prior to engaging... Choosing to ignore following those rules is your own choice and the consequences of which are a direct result of your own choices and actions...

Nuff said!!!

 

[EpaL]

If a ship expodes soon enough after you shoot red-hot supersonic metal at it or carve into it with lasers, the police are pretty much going to hold you responsible for that. Along with everyone else who shot at it, of course - unless they already knew the ship had a bounty.

You're looking at this purely from the point of view of how the consequences of what you did affect you. You shot at someone and seconds later they blew up - yes, that goes from assault to murder. Because you were actually trying to kill that ship, weren't you? You had it selected as your target and you opened fire. And you didn't know for sure that it was wanted at that point. You committed a crime, so in that jurisdiction, you're a criminal.

No, you're not sin-binned. No, you're not prevented from making credits. There are literally thousands of jurisdictions. There are a huge number of ways to make money. You are wanted in one of them. You could still actually make money there. But you've got thousands of other systems and stations to pick from and work from.

Let me go over it one more time as I think most of you are missing the nuance of my argument:

• I accidentally shot at him first before the scan had complete, incurring the usual 600cr fine. I am FINE with this.
• Scan completed, he is WANTED.
• I then turned to run because I knew I had a bounty on my head and didn't want to get blown away by the local heat.
• A few seconds later, security destroyed him as they had determined he was wanted, and so they attacked.
• Despite my scan now showing he is WANTED, I cop a murder rap for his destruction.

Now, lets consider this in isolation (as that is what any court of law would do)

• Did I cause harm to this person and their ship? YES
• Did I deserve a fine for shooting before the Wanted scan was complete? YES
• Did I cause enough damage to kill him? NO
• Was I responsible for his ship blowing up? NO

So in the absence of the local constabulary, this person would have survived and I would not have copped the murder rap. Ergo, I did not cause his death therefore I did not deserve the fine.

Now you can argue all day long about how E D works out who is responsible for what but main point still stands: once a scan is complete and the person is considered WANTED, no player or NPC should be awarded fines / bounties for damage or destruction to that ship.

 

[excalibus]

Let me go over it one more time as I think most of you are missing the nuance of my argument:

• I accidentally shot at him first before the scan had complete, incurring the usual 600cr fine. I am FINE with this.
• Scan completed, he is WANTED.
• I then turned to run because I knew I had a bounty on my head and didn't want to get blown away by the local heat.
• A few seconds later, security destroyed him as they had determined he was wanted, and so they attacked.
• Despite my scan now showing he is WANTED, I cop a murder rap for his destruction.

Now, lets consider this in isolation (as that is what any court of law would do)

• Did I cause harm to this person and their ship? YES
• Did I deserve a fine for shooting before the Wanted scan was complete? YES
• Did I cause enough damage to kill him? NO
• Was I responsible for his ship blowing up? NO

So in the absence of the local constabulary, this person would have survived and I would not have copped the murder rap. Ergo, I did not cause his death therefore I did not deserve the fine.

Now you can argue all day long about how E D works out who is responsible for what but main point still stands: once a scan is complete and the person is considered WANTED, no player or NPC should be awarded fines / bounties for damage or destruction to that ship.

Then report that in itself as a bug... Submit a ticket and who knows your bounty might get reduced back to 600 cr

 

[jgm]

Let me go over it one more time as I think most of you are missing the nuance of my argument:

• I accidentally shot at him first before the scan had complete, incurring the usual 600cr fine. I am FINE with this.
• Scan completed, he is WANTED.
• I then turned to run because I knew I had a bounty on my head and didn't want to get blown away by the local heat.
• A few seconds later, security destroyed him as they had determined he was wanted, and so they attacked.
• Despite my scan now showing he is WANTED, I cop a murder rap for his destruction.

The game used to be such that the killing shot was the one taken in to account when handing out rewards and punishments. Because lots of players complained that NPCs were stealing their kills this was changed so that the last player shot (within a reasonable timeframe) was the one taken in to account when handing out rewards and punishments.

Players in general prefer the current system over the previous one because it makes their lives easier.

once a scan is complete and the person is considered WANTED, no player or NPC should be awarded fines / bounties for damage or destruction to that ship

The destruction of the NPC ship was a continuation of your attack from before you knew that the NPC was wanted. This, along with the system above, is why you received a bounty.

 

[Han Brannigan]

So. I should not need to scan him as its obvious !

Nr1 Your example is very extreme and we all know ( or at least we should ) that it would be very hard for the AI to decide wether its obvious or not
Nrt2 Its the way FD Devs want it to be
Nr3 get used to it

 

[Han Brannigan]

Oh so because I may receive bounties for fights that an NPC finishes for me, ipso facto I should be happy with being charged with murder for a crime I LITERALLY didn't commit (remember: I stopped firing once I realised my mistake) and even though everybody else there was perfectly justified in killing him because HE WAS A WANTED CRIMINAL? All because my timing was a bit off?

Again, you're conflating two ideas that are unrelated in an attempt to justify broken mechanics.

Your logic is weak.

 

[Rauminen]

OK, there's one little thing I don't understand.

If you are bounty hunting properly, as it supposed to be done, you are using a KWS. It's good for your budget as well.

How on earth can the normal scan not finish in the time the KWS is done? (rhetorical)

Now I understand that you want EVERY LAST BIT OF BOUNTY RIGHT NOW. But if he's down to 5% hull, just let it go. Seriously. There will be another.

 

[Karakhian]

Let me go over it one more time as I think most of you are missing the nuance of my argument:

• I accidentally shot at him first before the scan had complete, incurring the usual 600cr fine. I am FINE with this.
• Scan completed, he is WANTED.
• I then turned to run because I knew I had a bounty on my head and didn't want to get blown away by the local heat.
• A few seconds later, security destroyed him as they had determined he was wanted, and so they attacked.
• Despite my scan now showing he is WANTED, I cop a murder rap for his destruction.

Now, lets consider this in isolation (as that is what any court of law would do)

• Did I cause harm to this person and their ship? YES
• Did I deserve a fine for shooting before the Wanted scan was complete? YES
• Did I cause enough damage to kill him? NO
• Was I responsible for his ship blowing up? NO

So in the absence of the local constabulary, this person would have survived and I would not have copped the murder rap. Ergo, I did not cause his death therefore I did not deserve the fine.

Now you can argue all day long about how E D works out who is responsible for what but main point still stands: once a scan is complete and the person is considered WANTED, no player or NPC should be awarded fines / bounties for damage or destruction to that ship.

Actually, yes - I agree that that is pretty rough. You fell between the cracks between the laws and the police enforcing of them. You got utterly screwed over. They pinned a murder rap on you on the basis of a lesser offence and some bad timing.

This same thing has happened to me (and most players). In Codorain, I once hit an Eagle just before my scan completed and got the assault charge. Being paper thin, he exploded a couple of seconds later when police Vipers opened up on him. I got the murder charge - and when the cops attacked me, I proceeded to kill two police Vipers before I decided increasing the bounty on my head wasn't the best way of dealing with the situation. So I thought, 'Kay', and jumped out. I was looking over my shoulder for bounty hunters over the next week, and then I went back and paid the fine once the bounty expired.

I considered that a rough deal. But the thing is - I consider all of it my own fault, and not a fault with the game. The rule is really, really simple. Finish your scan, check for Wanted. It's a simple rule, easy to follow. If I screw up, then I consider that my mistake, not anyone else's.

The police in Elite have always been trigger-happy bullies, right from the original game. It's a nasty galaxy. They blow you up for loitering, for god's sake. If you're expecting proper justice and being able to argue legal minutiae, then you're going to lose out. The way I see it, it's about learning to survive - and that means knowing the consequences of the things you do. You know that if you don't finish your scan, you end up wanted. It's nice and simple - everyone understands it. Whatever bounty accrues after that, I never thought to do anything but write it off as my own mistake - and being a free-roaming independent pilot, I'll just move on from that jurisdiction until it blows over.

From a game design point of view, the simplicity of it is also a good thing. Everyone knows what happens if you shoot before scanning. If you do it, you're screwed by the local cops. Fine-graining it as you suggest doesn't create any obvious exploits that I can think of - but trust me, there will be players who will try to come up with something. It might well work, though the devs would have to think hard before introducing a little more complexity to the system - there might be issues of more complex calculations during combat interfering with performance. But the thing is - it actually suits the lore of the galaxy better if it's kept simple and the police are just brutal and will screw you at the drop of a hat. So I'm not sure it's worth it to even change it.

In the end, you're not arguing about whether you did something wrong - you're arguing about the penalty (which I think you weren't aware didn't apply galaxy-wide) and whether it suits the crime. I actually agree that you got thoroughly screwed over there... but I'm not sure that that's 'wrong' necessarily. When that happened to me, I just kind of wrote it off as my mistake coupled with unforgiving douchebag police. And my reaction was to learn a lesson from it and always finish my scan.

 

[R Wilco]

From memory he was a sidey and I was in my Imp. Clipper wielding C3 Beams. Like a hot knife through butter...

Nice! My Vulture's C3 Pulses are obviously no match. Kudos to the engineers of Gutamaya for creating such a beautiful, powerful ship! Their power management skills far exceed the techs at Core Dynamics.

And mad skills on you for making it all the way to Baron in the Imperial Navy and not once shooting before the Scanner completed! Personally, I just attained Master and look forward to fighting for Princess Lavigny-Duval in a Clipper one day.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

Let me go over it one more time as I think most of you are missing the nuance of my argument:

• I accidentally shot at him first before the scan had complete, incurring the usual 600cr fine. I am FINE with this.
• Scan completed, he is WANTED.
• I then turned to run because I knew I had a bounty on my head and didn't want to get blown away by the local heat.
• A few seconds later, security destroyed him as they had determined he was wanted, and so they attacked.
• Despite my scan now showing he is WANTED, I cop a murder rap for his destruction.

<snip>

Ah, you got done by the "Ten Second Rule".


This was brought in to hand kills to Players. If a Player does damage to an NPC that dies in the next ten seconds, they get the kill.

It was originally designed to give Players magical powers to claim a WANTED NPC's bounty in a big furball fight, when multiple NPCs are all gunning for the mark.

It works both ways, though... Players also get framed for NPC murder, because they illegally shot a ship within ten seconds of that ship "being killed".


My ideal solution would be to erase the Ten Second Rule from existence. But that's just me.

 

[Karakhian]

Ah, you got done by the "Ten Second Rule".


This was brought in to hand kills to Players. If a Player does damage to an NPC that dies in the next ten seconds, they get the kill.

It was originally designed to give Players magical powers to claim a WANTED NPC's bounty in a big furball fight, when multiple NPCs are all gunning for the mark.

It works both ways, though... Players also get framed for NPC murder, because they illegally shot a ship within ten seconds of that ship "being killed".


My ideal solution would be to erase the Ten Second Rule from existence. But that's just me.

I agree with this. I never had that much of an issue with NPC's getting credited with kills. If they got the killshot, too bad for me.

But realistically, the complaints if they tried to change it back... "This NPC stole my kill! Not fair!"... I don't actually know why we should get precedence over them just because we're commanders. Makes sense to me.

It would also incentivise using heavier alpha-strike weaponry to try to maximise the chance of delivering the killshot. And wasting lots of ammo/heat by pouring more fire into the smoking hulk after the powerplant hits 0%, 'just in case'. That sounds awesome.

 

[Jay8ch]

The wanted status of a ship is an entirely separate state of affairs to whether or not you've scanned it and the game should behave as such.

 

[ilotram]

I have also been fined for shooting at a wanted target before scanning has finished. Wanted is wanted. You should not have to scan a wanted target. Also, I have dormant fines that I cannot pay, and an active fine that I cannot pay. This is spoiling the whole game for me

 

[CaptainKremmen]

I have also been fined for shooting at a wanted target before scanning has finished. Wanted is wanted. You should not have to scan a wanted target. Also, I have dormant fines that I cannot pay, and an active fine that I cannot pay. This is spoiling the whole game for me

Attacking other ships without legal clearance to do so... and getting in trouble for it... is spoiling the whole game for you?

Okay...