odd crime and punishment

[Henkel Lightfoot]

So, I was bimbling around, doing some bounty hunting. Three guys are in a wing, one is wanted. I hose the wanted fella, he explodes, cash made, jobs a good un! Wingman one runs for it and I hear impacts on my ship accompnied with the "you are under attack." So, I hose him too. He shot first, his poor judgment right? Wrong. 6400cr bounty which should be a fine now so I can pay it.

Its not the bounty, I flew one jump over and made more than enough to pay that and much more, but this cant be working as designed. I gave the ai more than enough opportunity to stop shooting before returning fire...

 

[Bokugo]

Is the "report crimes against me" option off in the functions panel? Pretty sure with that off no one can get any bounty/fine from attacking you (not sure about destroying but I would think that would still give a bounty)

 

[excalibus]

when you spun around to attack him was he showing as wanted on your hud? maybe wingman one shot you and not wingman two? so perhaps you did not shoot the ship hitting you, also if the ship fired at you but did not actually hit you, then you got suckered... and yes what bokugo said... that is correct if you have rep crimes against you off then he would not become wanted but you would for hitting him if his report crimes against me is turned on (which I believe for npc ships it is)

 

[Karakhian]

So, I was bimbling around, doing some bounty hunting. Three guys are in a wing, one is wanted. I hose the wanted fella, he explodes, cash made, jobs a good un! Wingman one runs for it and I hear impacts on my ship accompnied with the "you are under attack." So, I hose him too. He shot first, his poor judgment right? Wrong. 6400cr bounty which should be a fine now so I can pay it.

Its not the bounty, I flew one jump over and made more than enough to pay that and much more, but this cant be working as designed. I gave the ai more than enough opportunity to stop shooting before returning fire...

Are you 100% sure that it was Wingman One who shot at you? If you could see him running for it and you felt impacts on your hull, then that creates a strong suspicion that it was Wingman Two who shot at you while Wingman One was trying to get away.

Did you check that Wingman One was Wanted (down in the bottom left, in the target information)? If he had shot at you and hit, then he would instantly have become Wanted. A really good habit to get into is to check if your target is Wanted before opening fire.

I've also seen mixed wings of wanted and non-wanted ships, so you've got to be careful.

Edit: ninja'd

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commander Henkel Lightfoot!

What you describe *sounds* like a bug; a ship that attacks you when you're clean will have a bounty issued against it and be instantly scanned and revealed as wanted to you, so that you can freely return fire.

However, there is an exception:

If you are pledged to a power and the ship attacking you was pledged to an opposing power (when you target a ship that is pledged to a power it will have a power entry instead of the usual minor faction entry on its its info panel text), *and* you are in a system controlled or exploited by that ship's power, the ship will not be committing a crime by attacking you (the authorities "look the other way") but you would be committing a crime by fighting back.

Obviously this exception is only valid if you and the other ships were in fact pledged

Also, as Commander Karakhian helpfully points out, it can sometimes not be instantly clear who has hit you, especially if multiple ships are involved in a fracas. Remember that a ship only becomes wanted if it actually hits you - two ships could have been firing, but perhaps only one hit.

Normally a ship will only turn red in the interface once it has landed a shot, so colouration is a good indicator of legal status. But to be absolutely sure, always target a ship and glance at the target info for it, and only shoot if you see "WANTED" in it.

If you are categorically sure that it was a clear cut case of getting a bounty for attacking a clean ship (and no Powerplay stuff was involved), please submit a bug.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

Hi Sandro.

Are you saying that the following should not occur?...

- Me, a pilot pledged to Patreus, flying in HOSTILE space (Fed), CLEAN in legal status.
- "System Authority Ship" interdicts me, saying Time to pay!
- "System Authority Ship" has local faction status displayed on left-hand target panel.
- "System Authority Ship" attacks me, stays clean.
- When I shoot back, I become WANTED.

The above scenario occurred in PP 1.3 Beta. At the time, I put it down to a wonky, ill-fitting PowerPlay mechanic. Didn't sit right with me one little bit.

But was this, then, a bug? I'd be really pleased to find out (belatedly) that PowerPlay wasn't intended to turn local police into political assassins, who attacked me just because I worked for somebody the police commissioner's boss' boss didn't like.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commander CaptainKremmen!

"Normal" system authority ships are indeed meant to stay out of Powerplay with regards to starting combat.

Only Ships pledged to powers are meant to get angry with you, and only if the conditions are correct (e.g. the powers involved support different major factions etc.)

So it does sound like a bug that an authority vessel would attack you for no reason, or simply because you were pledged to a different power than the current system. Authority vessels should only be interested in ships that have broken the law.

Again, for clarity, if you are attacked by a power ship in its home turf, it might not get a bounty on it, and you might get a bounty on you for fighting back. but the local authorities (minor faction) should not be instigating this, only responding to bounties.

Also, to put things another way:

You should never get a bounty for attacking a wanted ship (so you can legally return fire against even Powerplay ships, in their own turf, if they are wanted), because being wanted means that the local authorities want them dead, regardless of who their patron is.

Hope this info helps, and if you experience events that do not match this expectation, feel free to raise the issue/submit bugs.

 

[Henkel Lightfoot]

As a general answer, all three were ai ships and I targeted and fired upon the ship that was flashing red and making passes at me. If I got intentionally suckered, the ai has been getting a lot more cunning. The ship may have been clean at the time but was firing on me to the extent that my ships computer decided to inform me of the fact. Sorry if I missed anyone's points, at work and on my phone.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commander Henkel Lightfoot!

Hmm. Can you remember if the ships were pledged to a power, and are you pledged to a power?

Also, do you remember seeing the "WANTED" status on the ship that caused you to gain a bounty?

The fact that the ship you were attacking was red on the interface does lean towards something having gone a little squiggly, but without concrete answers to the above questions it's quite hard to be absolutely sure.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Hello Commander CaptainKremmen!

"Normal" system authority ships are indeed meant to stay out of Powerplay with regards to starting combat.

Only Ships pledged to powers are meant to get angry with you, and only if the conditions are correct (e.g. the powers involved support different major factions etc.)

So it does sound like a bug that an authority vessel would attack you for no reason, or simply because you were pledged to a different power than the current system. Authority vessels should only be interested in ships that have broken the law.

Again, for clarity, if you are attacked by a power ship in its home turf, it might not get a bounty on it, and you might get a bounty on you for fighting back. but the local authorities (minor faction) should not be instigating this, only responding to bounties.

Also, to put things another way:

You should never get a bounty for attacking a wanted ship (so you can legally return fire against even Powerplay ships, in their own turf, if they are wanted), because being wanted means that the local authorities want them dead, regardless of who their patron is.

Hope this info helps, and if you experience events that do not match this expectation, feel free to raise the issue/submit bugs.

I personally think it should be wrong to be attacked by anyone even if you are a part of a different power. If you get caught actively going againt the the powers due to cargo scan or combat, then fine you are fair game. But i could be just doing straight forward trading and I get attacked for no reason by another powers ships, surely that should be illegal.

For example lets say i support the labour party and I go to a very conservative area, doesn't give them a legal excuse to murder or attack me. It would still be illegal.

 

[bitstorm]

So reading between the lines...

Essentially if you pledge to a power you can shoot up any ship marked as a different power with impunity, as long as you are in a system controlled or exploited by your power?

 

[excalibus]

So reading between the lines...

Essentially if you pledge to a power you can shoot up any ship marked as a different power with impunity, as long as you are in a system controlled or exploited by your power?

not quite... They have to be part of another power that is NOT affiliated with your powers major faction

Ex: Fed Power in Empire Power Space = kill at will but Empire Power in another Empire Power space = do not kill or you will lose merits

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commander bitstorm!

No need to read between the lines: in systems exploited or controlled by your power, you can attack with realtive impunity ships pledged to powers that do not support the same major faction. You don't have to, of course, but in the opinion of your power, disruption of activities by ships of opposing powers is nominally considered a good thing by your power.

The bottom line is that pledging to a power has consequence. Once pledged, human space as additional geographical meaning. You gain specific benefits and suffer specific penalties based on geography, as you are deemed part of the struggle for territorial control and fair game for those that oppose your power.

Hello Commander CommanderKronos!

In Elite: Dangerous, "the law" changes based on geography, is sometimes malleable for those with enough power, and the authorities are not always shining paragons of virtue.

Perhaps it would help to consider the powers in a constant state of cold war, operated by individuals and groups that are absolutely willing to see innocent folk murdered if it furthers the cause.

Smaller factions are drawn into this web and sometimes forced to act against their own sense of morality.

 

[bitstorm]

Ta excalibus/Sandro.

So this mechanism of being able to attack other ships without repercussion from the local authorities under the circumstances described...

Is this "free to shoot" indicated in any way by your sensors/HUD?

I've seen LAWLESS but not sure under what circumstances, is this the indicator?

 

[Karakhian]

Ta excalibus/Sandro.

So this mechanism of being able to attack other ships without repercussion from the local authorities under the circumstances described...

Is this "free to shoot" indicated in any way by your sensors/HUD?

I've seen LAWLESS but not sure under what circumstances, is this the indicator?

'Lawless' appears for me in circumstances where 'Clean' and 'Wanted' have no meaning - for instance in anarchy systems or systems that have no human population nor authorities to issue bounties. All ships in those systems have 'Lawless' in place of 'Clean' and 'Wanted'.

 

[Mithos09]

Depending on the strength of your shields, an attacking sidewinder may need some time and several hits to make a dent in them and be recognised as an offending attacker. I guess the same system that protects you from being penalised for grazing shots will let them attack you without becoming wanted.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commander bitstorm!

Hopefully yes:

If you see HOSTILE above your signature element in the cockpit: worry, you are either at a location where the local minor faction running the place wants you dead, or in a system where the controlling power wants you dead.

Conversely, if you see a ship and its status is ENEMY, it means the ship is from an opposing power and you are free to go weapons hot without fear of recrimination.

If you see LAWLESS on a ship, it means there is no local law enforcement, no crimes, basically, do what you want (of course, if you see this in a conflict zone, there will be very immediate and painful consequences for attacking ships...)

 

[Colonel North]

Hello Commander Henkel Lightfoot!

What you describe *sounds* like a bug; a ship that attacks you when you're clean will have a bounty issued against it and be instantly scanned and revealed as wanted to you, so that you can freely return fire.

However, there is an exception:

If you are pledged to a power and the ship attacking you was pledged to an opposing power (when you target a ship that is pledged to a power it will have a power entry instead of the usual minor faction entry on its its info panel text), *and* you are in a system controlled or exploited by that ship's power, the ship will not be committing a crime by attacking you (the authorities "look the other way") but you would be committing a crime by fighting back.

Obviously this exception is only valid if you and the other ships were in fact pledged

Also, as Commander Karakhian helpfully points out, it can sometimes not be instantly clear who has hit you, especially if multiple ships are involved in a fracas. Remember that a ship only becomes wanted if it actually hits you - two ships could have been firing, but perhaps only one hit.

Normally a ship will only turn red in the interface once it has landed a shot, so colouration is a good indicator of legal status. But to be absolutely sure, always target a ship and glance at the target info for it, and only shoot if you see "WANTED" in it.

If you are categorically sure that it was a clear cut case of getting a bounty for attacking a clean ship (and no Powerplay stuff was involved), please submit a bug.

Ships in wings protecting their wingmates can bring down two rings of shields and not appear as 'red' or even wanted. This happens regularly to me effectively making turrets redundant.

 

[Chummy62]

We have a wonderful community that is supported by a helpful team at Frontier Development. You guys Rock! Thank you for helping us with the finer points of the game. Keep up the good work!

 

[Darth Ender]

Ever since 1.3 there has been an issue where ships attacking you do not show up as hostile sometimes and so it's incredibly annoying trying to determine who is shooting you.

I've not seen an issue though where they aren't wanted.