How to Scoop as fast as an Asp in your DB Explorer (TEST RESULTS)

As someone who has complained quite a bit on these forums over the lackluster capabilities of the DB Explorer, I was a bit shocked myself to discover that under ideal circumstances & using the same size fuel tank, they are virtually the same ship for a skilled explorer. This is surprising because the Asp scoops fuel 3 times faster than a DBX!!! However, both ships can start the FSD the moment the cooldown timer expires and recover most (if not ALL) of the fuel used on the prior jump before the FSD charges fully.

Example Video. Take note of the Fuel at the beginning of the fuel scooping and the beginning of the next jump - it ends up in the same place! Proving that the DB can scoop all of it fuel use each jump without slowing down [This video uses a DBS to demonstrate, which is essentially the same thing as an Explorer but the movements can be more exaggerated to show how it can be done]
[video=youtube_share;8HXDfAn47hI]https://youtu.be/8HXDfAn47hI[/video]

It's a bit tricky to pull this off in a DBX, but it can be done with practice. The precise technique varies from star to star depending on the next jump target trajectory and how hot the Corona is (bluer is hotter). But the basic idea is to keep throttle on FULL from the moment you exit Witch Space (holding down the D-Scan while scooping), dive deeply but at a slightly off center from the star and then pull up when you hit 342/s, and hug the surface of the collision zone (while lining up for the target star) until you are at between 70 and 77% heat (depending on the Corona Temp/Star Class). Then rotate and pull up, making a perpendicular beeline away from the stars center in order to exit the corona as quickly as possible. You do this by watching the radar screen to make sure the Red Star on the mini-map doesn't have a line being drawn down/up to your sensor plane, and is as directly behind you as possible. Then once you exit the corona (noted by the wub-wub -> sucking sound) realign your ship to the target star and jump.

[The downside is that it doesn't leave with much time to check the system map to see if you want to pull over and whip out your DSS, and very often you are forced to jump away from potentially juicy systems because you spent so much time wrestling with the corona, and managing your heat.]

The 2nd trick to this method is plotting your trip so that you always end up on a Scoopable star. I pick yellows just in case of ELWs. The reason for this is because you will be running slight fuel deficits at each star recovering about 90% of the fuel used in the last jump. Since it takes about 31 jumps to travel 1000LY in a DBX, that means that at the end of the plotted trip you will have a cumulative fuel deficit of roughly 15T + the last jump, or about 2/5 of a tank remaining. It takes about 45 seconds to plot a safe new course (LONGER in the core) and that is just 10 seconds shorter than the time it takes to top off the DBX's fuel tank.


Testing conditions:

Over about 4000 LY of travel tests on the DBX, and about 22LY of travel tests on the Asp. These test were all conducted along the vertical ZERO plane between Sol and Sag A* at various altitudes above and below the zone of unscoopable dwarfs.

Average scoop time for a DBE over 1000LY = ~45.5s
Average scoop time for an Asp over 1000LY = ~44.7s

Jumps per 1000LY:
Asp: 31
DBX: 31-32 (it was only 32 in the 1000LY gap between the spiral arms)

Builds:
DBX: http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=70i,,2-3I6u7_5K2C5K8I,4_w0MW0Ky2jw2UI
Asp: http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=70g,,2-3I6u7_6u2C8S8I,0PA0O40Ky0Ky0Ky2jw2UI


The slight difference in the average jump time is because the DBE is a little slower to recover from unscoopable stars. Over a 26,000LY trip to Sag A*, this amounts to a travel time difference of only 11 minutes, plus another extra 4 minutes for the 25 scheduled replots while refueling. Not much for an ~10.5 hour trip (about 15 minutes extra on the DBX).

**For those of you who have looked at the race results of the Buckyball Run A* and noticed that the fastest DBX time of 14 Hours and the fastest Asp time of 9.5 Hours. Well, the DBX in question was clearly not optimally outfitted for speed. And the Asp in question was a base bones model with a 16T fuel tank and a 36.5LY jump range which shaves about a hour off the best possible "safe" DBX time. You could also slot a 16T tank on a DBX for an "unsafe" trip, but I wouldn't recommend it. Your refueling speed would be more greatly impacted by unscoopables and by hotter yellow stars too dramatically causing spikes of excess fuel depletion, prolonged scooping, and delayed FSD charges. So the DBX really needs that 32T tank cushion, whereas the Asp can get by just fine on a 16T tank.

Heat Management:

The DBX runs at about 15% heat. The Asp build runs at 17%. Neither of these builds requires heatsinks. Heat management is then all about fuel scooping, and not accidental collisions. While speed scooping, both ships will run above 80%. The Asp will usually top out at 86%, and the DBX will regularly go above 90% and occasionally 100%.

The DB Scout:

The same jump method works on Scout model. Though the jump range is only around 27LY. It is far more maneuverable though, so you can push it to higher heat % and safely exit the corona without worrying about breaking 100%. Even if you do break 100% the Scout doesn't always take full damage, and when it does, the damage is usually very light.



Why I came clean with this INFO:

I debated on whether I should keep these results secret until I put up a shockingly fast time Top Ten time for a Sag A* run, but I may not have the time to do a full consecutive run before the Race officially ends in a few days, and I wanted some other intrepid pilot to have a shot! :D

Caveats:

The DBX is still a clown car of a combat ship for anything except the easiest NPCs in the weakest ships. In it's fastest configurable exploration build, it is a sitting duck for both NPC pirates and CMDRs alike. You would need to find a safe port and hone your escape skills, just to fly this thing with any confidence of getting your ship to dock, even when playing single player. If you slot defensive hardware on your ship, you will kill it's jump range, increase the heat buildup, and still be pretty easily killed or heavily damaged.


Well now that you are armed with this info, Good luck, and enjoy your DBXs! Now with moar speed!!
 
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If that wasn't completely clear, DoubtOutLoud created a diagram...

01_scooping106.jpg

:p
 
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Thanks for pointing this out! I missed the dedication in Doubt's post and am deeply touched by the accuracy of his rendition, though his dive velocity was off by 33% ;)

You're a better scooper than I, Brother Z. I'll stick to my easy peasy 6A scoop and keep corona surfing :)

Ha! Yeah, the DBX is not exactly a graceful diver, so it's a bit of a seat of your pants kind of ride. Very exciting though!
 
Did you get this idea from my Rush to Lembava video? :D

I'm planning on making a guide video about this, do you mind if I use your post?
 
WOW All that to save a few seconds? Pull up to a star, pull back on the throttle and let it fill. No heat build up ever.
I guess some things are important. :)
 
Nice one, Ziljan. :) Question: Is that faster than spooling up the drive a few seconds before the tank is topped up and doing a combined align-scoop-the-rest-and-charge-and-jump-as-soon-as-outside-the-corona? (I guess the argument would be that the drive charges faster, on the other hand, you don't lose the time to exit and align.) I remember that being both impressively fast and, after more than 10 jumps, thoroughly nerve-wrecking. :)

WOW All that to save a few seconds? Pull up to a star, pull back on the throttle and let it fill. No heat build up ever.
I guess some things are important. :)

It is to racers and explorers who want to reach their destination fast. :) And it is important because it shows that the on-paper stats for our ships don't tell us everything about them. I know that Ziljan was one of the two most vocal critics of the DBE, and still took his time for a balanced assessment; so to me, as one of the DBE defenders, it's also important because it reminds me why I really like this community. :)

And if that ship wouldn't be outturned by your average Coriolis station after hauling its fully combat-spec'd carapace over vast distances fast, I'd pull it out of storage again. La.
 
Did you get this idea from my Rush to Lembava video? :D

I'm planning on making a guide video about this, do you mind if I use your post?

I must have missed that one. I spend about two weeks developing this technique on my own while planning a Buckyball Run. I didn't think I could place the top Asp time because I didn't know the secret to jumping far in an Asp, and I thought I could place the top time for a DB or a Cobra. In any case, if I had seen your video first I would definitely have mentioned you in my OP, I am a stickler about giving credit. But I guess great minds think alike :)

So I just found your video on youtube:
[video=youtube;DpUrmo8WYxI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpUrmo8WYxI&list=PLmZswJzvjc8eGygYrJNJfyFiOj58WjkwH&index=15[/video]

It is not actually like my technique, though you do maintain the speed of 0.33c which is important for escaping the gravity well and charging FSD more quickly. I will post a video of my dive technique in a DB Scout which is very similar to a DBX but a little more graceful so you can see the major points of the technique a bit more plainly.


WOW All that to save a few seconds? Pull up to a star, pull back on the throttle and let it fill. No heat build up ever.
I guess some things are important. :)

Seconds? My good man Willard this method could save you DAYS (including needed breaks) on a trip to Sag A*. Pull back on throttle....?? that alone would cost you 5 hours on a BB Run. But I definitely understand the allure of going at a relaxed lazy pace. It's just not something that I can personally handle without getting a little squirrely.

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Nice one, Ziljan. :) Question: Is that faster than spooling up the drive a few seconds before the tank is topped up and doing a combined align-scoop-the-rest-and-charge-and-jump-as-soon-as-outside-the-corona? (I guess the argument would be that the drive charges faster, on the other hand, you don't lose the time to exit and align.) I remember that being both impressively fast and, after more than 10 jumps, thoroughly nerve-wrecking. :)

Yes indeed you can shave about 3-10 seconds off the jump time (depending on your descent angle) by charging FSD as soon the cooldown is up, and you don't miss much if any fuel. Posting a demonstration video in a few minutes!

it is important because it shows that the on-paper stats for our ships don't tell us everything about them. I know that Ziljan was one of the two most vocal critics of the DBE, and still took his time for a balanced assessment; so to me, as one of the DBE defenders, it's also important because it reminds me why I really like this community. :)
.


:D Exactly! And yes, I have no problem being wrong, and I will even work hard to prove myself wrong. I only care about the facts and improving the game for everyone.
 
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Fair enough :) still, can I use some of your ideas for my video? I will of course mention and link.

Ps I don't think the temp of the star affects your temp levels, they seem to have it all balanced by how close you can get. But the size of the star can make a difference. Huge stars can get you trapped
 
can I use some of your ideas for my video? I will of course mention and link.

Ps I don't think the temp of the star affects your temp levels, they seem to have it all balanced by how close you can get. But the size of the star can make a difference. Huge stars can get you trapped

Yes certainly ;)

To be clear though, the temp is definitely effected by the star type. The ship temp at the max scoop depth is higher for a bigger star (red 64%, yellow 66%, white 68%, etc). The amount of heat generation rate from charging FSD is also greater from hotter sources. This is why close binaries and neutron stars are so problematic for most ships to escape after collisions, and small red stars are no problem to charge FSD for hyperspace while lounging in normal space inside the corona. In general, you can muck around in SC in the corona of the small red stars until >90% heat, and even catch up on lost fuel from unscoopables, however if you wait until 80% heat to start evacuating the corona from hotter brighter stars then you will probably fry you ship's components a bit.
 
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I noticed something as well, which I wonder if someone else spotted too. Back in my cobra (combat/trader hybrid fit, so yea it had modules on that added to the heat) I noticed my heat would consistently get higher on Red Dwarf stars, even though they're cooler than most other types. I think this could have been because you need to get closer to those smaller stars to reach maximum scooping distance (a class 3 scoop vs a class 6 on my Asp also meant staying in the corona longer). My asp runs much cooler and scoops much faster so I've not noticed it on that ship, but with the Cobra I'd sometimes even have to abort scooping, cool down then swing back to finish the job, especially on those class M dwarf stars.
 
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Yes certainly ;)

To be clear though, the temp is definitely effected by the star type. The ship temp at the max scoop depth is higher for a bigger star (red 64%, yellow 66%, white 68%, etc). The amount of heat generation rate from charging FSD is also greater from hotter sources. This is why close binaries and neutron stars are so problematic for most ships to escape after collisions, and small red stars are no problem to charge FSD for hyperspace while lounging in normal space inside the corona. In general, you can muck around in SC in the corona of the small red stars until >90% heat, and even catch up on lost fuel from unscoopables, however if you wait until 80% heat to start evacuating the corona from hotter brighter stars then you will probably fry you ship's components a bit.

I really disagree. I've tested this countless times. No matter which star type I scoop from in my Asp, the temperature always reaches the same level when at optimal fuel distance. Bigger stars (which blue ones generally are) sometimes make things worse because it's harder to escape, but otherwise, I really have found no difference
 
I really disagree. I've tested this countless times. No matter which star type I scoop from in my Asp, the temperature always reaches the same level when at optimal fuel distance. Bigger stars (which blue ones generally are) sometimes make things worse because it's harder to escape, but otherwise, I really have found no difference

Sorry drkaii, but I have to agree with Ziljan. I can't comment on 'temp at optimal distance' with the FSD off as I've never taken any notice, but once the FSD is activated in the corona the temperature rockets with anything brighter than a Type-G.

In my last Asp run (I'm currently third amongst the Asp-racers, and fifth overall) I didn't even bother pulling away from Type-M stars as I knew that a tangential course would get me away in time, often without reaching 80% heat, regardless of the actual size of the M. I was always happy to see a Type-M after an unscoopable, as I knew that I'd be able to scoop two jumps worth without delaying my FSD charge.

Blue stars I usually slightly pulled up from before the cooldown clock finished so that I was already on a gentle escape vector before hitting jump - as they're hotter and generally bigger I knew that I'd keep refueling long enough to top up on the way out of the corona.

The one's that usually caught me out were the Type-Fs, because the temperature surge when you charge the FSD seems faster than Type-Gs. I took very little module damage on the way to Sag A* this time, but most of it came Type-Fs.

@Ziljan: Are you planning to run with a DBX? I'll be seriously impressed (and frustrated! ;)) if you push me down the rankings in an "inferior" vessel. Drakhyr is planning to keep the leaderboard going once ElectricZ steps down, and I think you still have nearly two weeks to make an "official" run as you've registered an interest, so you've already "entered".

That's how I'm reading ElectricZ's posts anyway, as the "two weeks to go" message in his last post conficts with the date that he added to the first post. So I think that you still have the next two weekends, but I might be wrong. :)
 
Sorry drkaii, but I have to agree with Ziljan. I can't comment on 'temp at optimal distance' with the FSD off as I've never taken any notice, but once the FSD is activated in the corona the temperature rockets with anything brighter than a Type-G.

In my last Asp run (I'm currently third amongst the Asp-racers, and fifth overall) I didn't even bother pulling away from Type-M stars as I knew that a tangential course would get me away in time, often without reaching 80% heat, regardless of the actual size of the M. I was always happy to see a Type-M after an unscoopable, as I knew that I'd be able to scoop two jumps worth without delaying my FSD charge.

Blue stars I usually slightly pulled up from before the cooldown clock finished so that I was already on a gentle escape vector before hitting jump - as they're hotter and generally bigger I knew that I'd keep refueling long enough to top up on the way out of the corona.

The one's that usually caught me out were the Type-Fs, because the temperature surge when you charge the FSD seems faster than Type-Gs. I took very little module damage on the way to Sag A* this time, but most of it came Type-Fs.

@Ziljan: Are you planning to run with a DBX? I'll be seriously impressed (and frustrated! ;)) if you push me down the rankings in an "inferior" vessel. Drakhyr is planning to keep the leaderboard going once ElectricZ steps down, and I think you still have nearly two weeks to make an "official" run as you've registered an interest, so you've already "entered".

That's how I'm reading ElectricZ's posts anyway, as the "two weeks to go" message in his last post conficts with the date that he added to the first post. So I think that you still have the next two weekends, but I might be wrong. :)


Ok I have to admit guys I've been a bit fast in reading your responses, and yeah - when FSD is charging, I don't have any data. I've only done that once and wasn't paying much attention. So you are right (I presume)
 
I know that Ziljan was one of the two most vocal critics of the DBE, and still took his time for a balanced assessment; so to me, as one of the DBE defenders, it's also important because it reminds me why I really like this community. :)

My thoughts exactly.

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Ok I have to admit guys I've been a bit fast in reading your responses, and yeah - when FSD is charging, I don't have any data. I've only done that once and wasn't paying much attention. So you are right (I presume)

Even when the FSD isn't charging, there are differences in the Max temperature at max scooping depth over time. You wouldn't notice this on an exploration specced Asp unless you were using a very slow scoop. This is because the temp sensitivity to depth is highly dependent on power usage and PP size and the build up of heat can be slow on heat efficient ships. The Diamondbacks are both extremely efficient even when combat specced with larger thrusters etc, but they are also in the corona much longer, so you can just start to notice heat differences while idling/scooping (not even charging FSD). You can test this out by parking a DB at max depth on a B star and watch the temp keep climbing into the 70s. Meanwhile if you park that same ship on the skin of an M dwarf it will stay in the low 60s for as long as I've bothered to test it before getting bored and leaving.

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@Ziljan: Are you planning to run with a DBX? I'll be seriously impressed (and frustrated! ;)) if you push me down the rankings in an "inferior" vessel. Drakhyr is planning to keep the leaderboard going once ElectricZ steps down, and I think you still have nearly two weeks to make an "official" run as you've registered an interest, so you've already "entered".

That's how I'm reading ElectricZ's posts anyway, as the "two weeks to go" message in his last post conficts with the date that he added to the first post. So I think that you still have the next two weekends, but I might be wrong. :)

idk if I'll have the time to make a run in the next week, maybe the following weekend. That's why I made this public info. I would like the DBX to get a good score on the board before it goes "unofficial". I don't care if it's me that does it. Though it would be nice to be mentioned ;)
 
I really disagree. I've tested this countless times. No matter which star type I scoop from in my Asp, the temperature always reaches the same level when at optimal fuel distance. Bigger stars (which blue ones generally are) sometimes make things worse because it's harder to escape, but otherwise, I really have found no difference

Sorry drkaii, but I have to agree with Ziljan. I can't comment on 'temp at optimal distance' with the FSD off as I've never taken any notice, but once the FSD is activated in the corona the temperature rockets with anything brighter than a Type-G.

In my last Asp run (I'm currently third amongst the Asp-racers, and fifth overall) I didn't even bother pulling away from Type-M stars as I knew that a tangential course would get me away in time, often without reaching 80% heat, regardless of the actual size of the M. I was always happy to see a Type-M after an unscoopable, as I knew that I'd be able to scoop two jumps worth without delaying my FSD charge.

Just to add my agreement here as well (4 BBRA runs, where the last 3 could be considered as quick). It can be difficult to get to maximum scoopage, whilst maintaining a 'reasonable' temperature with the bluer stars, and it is much tougher to scrub temperature off as the FSD is charging. I think of it as a temperature gradient - the bluer the star, the steeper the curve, and more sparks I am going to get :)

idk if I'll have the time to make a run in the next week, maybe the following weekend. That's why I made this public info. I would like the DBX to get a good score on the board before it goes "unofficial". I don't care if it's me that does it. Though it would be nice to be mentioned ;)

Interesting you posted this as I had dismissed doing my last 'official' BBRA in a DBX due to the scoop. I then had a long tedious chore to do in the garden last week and whilst my mind wandered, I realised that it may be possible to do fast-jumping due to the 'great heat management' - i.e. I could push it 'hotter' than the Asp. My subsequent tests in game got me to a point where I could scoop just enough and could maintain my normal jump pace. However, I found it difficult and it felt very similar to tests I did with a B6 scoop on an Asp (basically right on the edge of hitting the gravity well, most of the time). I am not sure I could get a smooth enough rhythm to keep going for 9-10 hrs...

...although, maybe I'll have another play tonight.
 
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Mjmw, the trick on blue stars is to exit early and make up the lost fuel on the next M class. You can actually scoop more than you used on the last jump at M stars ;). Yeah it's not relaxing at all, and a 10 hour slog would get pretty iffy. Remember, the jumps don't always have to be perfect since there are a LOT of M class stars to make up the difference, and you get a free scooping reprieve every time you replot (hopefully only once every 1000LY).

If you can speed jump with a 6B scoop that is essentially the same heat headache as a DBX, but you have less time to relax between dives.
 
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