One way to counter mindless player killing (griefing?)

[Red Fox Four]

Shoot back works if they actually engaged combat ships.

That is not the case in most situations. You have FdL's, Pythons and Anacondas who are jumping Type 6's and even Haulers.

Shoot back? That's such an ignorant response it's hardly worth noting.

Should you be able to pirate players in controlled (non-Anarchy) areas? Sure. There's a difference between PIRATE and ship destruction for no reason.

Pirates don't kill ship. At most a pirate will shoot at a ship (incurring the assault bounty), but not destroy it (since destruction = no cargo = no loot = no profit). Even if the murder bounty is one googol credits per murder it will not affect ACTUAL pirates, since ship destruction is counter productive in terms of their goal... which is stealing cargo to sell for profit.

There is a difference between assault and piracy and those who say they want "PvP" where "PvP" = shoot and destroy, which has nothing to do with piracy in the game whatsoever.

The so-called "PvP" requested in that sense is the same "PvP" you have in DayZ where fully geared players spend the majority of their time trying to find bambies to kill.

Instead of PvP and piracy, lets bring the discussion on it's proper track and call it "Ship destruction".

Ship destruction that is committed in controlled space should have serious consequences that penalizes the offender financially in such a manner that it is felt and hurt the offender.

Ship destruction which is committed in anarchy systems... well... it's anarchy... go crazy. Zero consequences.

Your "PvP" arena = Anarchy systems. Now grow some balls and take your Anaconda to anarchy systems if you want PvP.

 

[ToniB]

there is a thread by sandro about bounty changes. i think his ideas are quite neat.

bounty could go up a bit too, but not as much as you think. the idea is NOT to make player killing obsolete.


and on another note: despite the vocal minority in this forum, griefing (or even player encounters) is hardly any problem in Elite and happens only very very seldom.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

imo he bounty of killing a clean player could be a set percentage what ever the cost is to the clean commander you kill...


to stop exploiting this, imo the total "fine" to the killer should include the total of the amount of damage that that player has caused in ship *destruction*. This will be more than the bounty on them, but the extra goes towards the insurance company who had to foot the bill for someone elses new ship. IF the criminal CMDR cant pay for this, then it comes out of the money for their new ship and if that puts them back down to a sidewinder with a massive loan bill then so be it.

does this make it "hard" for player gankers..... sure, but then that is the life they chose.

everything this game does imo should try to persuade the player that clean player ship destruction outside warzones is bad.

Piracy =/= blowing ships up for lols. that is what cargo hatches as well as comms are for imo.

The whole notion behind elite is that pilots federation members ARE special and killing them for fun is not tolerated....

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

The game takes place in a universe where, you get blown out of the sky for a lapsed parking fine. I doubt they put much value on human life.

 

[jadefriendly]

better: permanent / time-expiring criminal records

you can't land at certain bases / lose your permits etc. if you murder X amount of ships from a specific faction

 

[Sendraks]

I don't entirely disagree with the OP, but think the approach could be better.

The changes needed to stop griefing can be handle by in-game mechanics mostly and should be by the security forces for local and major factions. Rather than being entirely player driven. At the same time, there also should be more safe worthwhile space for pirates as existed in the original Elite games.

1) Piracy in Alliance/Empire/Federation space - if the player isn't fired upon, they should be able to report the crime to the authorities at the local station. This would get the criminal a local wanted status. Local security and local federation forces would begin aggressively hunting the pirate down until they paid off the bounty. This would include security forces following their frame-shift wakes around the system. If scanned outside a station, the pirate will be attacked by the local security (but not the station guns), which will make smuggler style approaches into stations necessary if a criminal wants to pay off a fine/bounty in system


2) Firing on another player in Alliance/Empire/Federation space - gets the criminal wanted status, with repercussions the same as above.


3) Destroying another player in Alliance/Empire/Federation space - gets the criminal fugitive status as per the original elite games. The criminal cannot dock, cannot pay off the wanted status within ANY system controlled by the faction the crime took place in. They have to go to another factions space to pay the wanted status. So commit this crime in Federation space, you have to go to Empire or Alliance or Independent space to pay your dues. Also, the faction security forces will pursue the criminal throughout their controlled space, hunting them from system to system until they leave and/or pay their fine after having left.


4) Committing crimes in Independent Space - works as 1-3 but as independent systems only usually have faction influence over one system, a criminal doesn't need to go so far to clear their wanted status.


5) Wanted fines for destroying players need to be much, much, much higher in Alliance/Empire/Federation space, depending on the tech level of the system or something along those lines. This should act as a disincentive on wanton in such systems, moving it more to anarchy space and independent systems.


6) Have it that the amount of fine decreases the further a criminal is from a system they committed a crime in. Basically an incentive on the criminal to get far away from where they committed their crime, so they don't just farm one system, and a recognition from the authorities that the problem criminal has moved far, far away. Basically to discourage people from farming the same Empire/Federation/Alliance system over and over and making criminal types move around to evade the law.


7) Combat zones would be excluded from all of the above in so far as combat between pilots of opposing factions are concerned. However, that is wholly dependent upon the pilots having chosen factions to fight on the side of. Flying into a combat zone and pew-pewing at players without choosing a side should be treated as a criminal act as per 1-6 above.

8) There should be populated anarchy systems as per the original Elite, which are safe havens for criminals and criminal acts. Not just uninhabited space as they are at present.

 

[TMC]

From what I hear (I only do combat so far), avoiding combat and just trucking cargo from system to system is very lucrative and credits add up quickly. Why should they get off so easy? There should be risk in making a fortune trading. I am that risk. If I see an innocent trader and I feel like taking them out for no reason other than teaching them the risks of easy money, so be it. They should think twice before investing all their money in cargo and hauling ships and leaving themselves defenseless. It's all part of the balance. Not that I go around killing innocents, I'm sure I have before but I'm sure not much, but so what if I do. If all the pirates and bounty hunters just let traders go around amassing billions of credits without fear, those same traders will soon be buying fully kitted condas and taking THEM out. Just my 2 cents on this.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Pirates don't kill ship. At most a pirate will shoot at a ship (incurring the assault bounty), but not destroy it (since destruction = no cargo = no loot = no profit). Even if the murder bounty is one googol credits per murder it will not affect ACTUAL pirates, since ship destruction is counter productive in terms of their goal... which is stealing cargo to sell for profit.

This isn't exactly true. Limpets and other non lethal piracy only work for cobras and below. Good luck getting more than 8-12 tons of cargo off your target, without his permission. When you're in an Asp or above, the only way to get sizable amounts(20-30 tons) of cargo is to, "convince" a trader to drop it. That usually involves death threats and "gentle" prodding. If you make murder too punishing, you take away one of the pirate's best potential weapons.

 

[uncle bulgaria]

This isn't exactly true. Limpets and other non lethal piracy only work for cobras and below. Good luck getting more than 8-12 tons of cargo off your target, without his permission. When you're in an Asp or above, the only way to get sizable amounts(20-30 tons) of cargo is to, "convince" a trader to drop it. That usually involves death threats and "gentle" prodding. If you make murder too punishing, you take away one of the pirate's best potential weapons.

I don't pirate as there's no money in it and I'm still working my way up the financial food chain in a mixture of ways but there always has to be that threat. If murder is punished too harshly then no one would ever submit to piracy if they knew that they wouldn't be killed, especially as repair costs are now trivial. Before you could use the threat of taking a hull down to single figure percentage health which would carry a big bill as a way of threat but not so much now as the repair costs are small. It's a very fine and difficult line for the devs to walk and achieve good balance.

 

[Scrat]

I just had a silly idea. How if the attacker has to pay the insurance when a not wanted ship is destroyed in PvP in a non anarchy system (excluding warzones). Give the attacker the option to pay insurance (perhaps in transactions screen or station contacts). If he does he will just get a small bounty (or fine?) on top. If he doesn't pay for the insurance add insurance cost to the usual bounty value.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Obviously not though. Perhaps you should read the post, or don't, and just be a troll.

 

[Blood Lust]

Please increase the bounty.
.
The larger the sum on my head the more my ego grows.

 

[Red Fox Four]

From what I hear (I only do combat so far), avoiding combat and just trucking cargo from system to system is very lucrative and credits add up quickly. Why should they get off so easy? There should be risk in making a fortune trading. I am that risk. If I see an innocent trader and I feel like taking them out for no reason other than teaching them the risks of easy money, so be it. They should think twice before investing all their money in cargo and hauling ships and leaving themselves defenseless. It's all part of the balance. Not that I go around killing innocents, I'm sure I have before but I'm sure not much, but so what if I do. If all the pirates and bounty hunters just let traders go around amassing billions of credits without fear, those same traders will soon be buying fully kitted condas and taking THEM out. Just my 2 cents on this.

Trading is one of the most boring playstyles in the game. Also, bounty hunting and combat bonds got massively cranked up lately. You easily make millions of credits now while bounty hunting which is pretty safe and risk free to do as well, unless you noob out and engage Pythons in you Sidewinder.

Also, if you want to disrupt their trading then sure, you can kill them. But you should expect more than a tiny, insignificant 6k bounty as the result of doing so.

From what you are saying you just want to kill random unarmed cargo ships for lolz, then jusitify it to yourself by proclaiming yourself as some "game balance" feature since you are jealous of them making a profit for 'free'.

Please, you can do better.

Noone is stopping you from killing cargo ships. That is not the discussion here. Also they can avoid you in Solo play anyhow, which is what happens if you randomely kill them. So what excatly did you achieve with your shortsighted thinking and strategy behind why you randomly kill traders? Nothing. They go play solo, make the same profit, and you have one less potential target in your game sessions.

Smart way to play it.

The discussion however is about penalizing random murders within faction controlled systems sufficiently so it is discouraged and the offender has to make a gard choice whether to do it or not.

As for killing being only tool for a pirate...what??

Disable drives and they float around helpless and you can pop cargo hatch.
Disable FSD and they cant jump, so you can threaten them to drop or lose ship... Or just pop the hatch again.

Two very simple and easy ways to pirate, and I have done it plenty.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Please increase the bounty.
.
The larger the sum on my head the more my ego grows.

Not just about increasing ego. If penalty also means fugitive status, ie you cant land anywhere within the Federation, then you quickly start having some problems beyond your ego. If you are deep enough inside Federation (or whatever faction you operate within) then you might not even have fuel to get to a safe station.

You are a prime example of the mentality that needs to be considered when increasing penalty and bounties, so I thank you for your input.

 

[khaitom]

Increasing bounties yes, stepping up the amount by factor of 5 no, what are you thinking? It would very soon go into ridiculous figures and basically stop any kind of pvp.

Btw, i have an idea:

>One way to counter mindless player killing (griefing?)

Shoot back.

It would be brilliant for PvP there'd be combat experienced bounty hunters fighting combat experienced pirates.

Only pirates who fear bounty hunters would complain about this.

 

[Tuzmaal]

Not just about increasing ego. If penalty also means fugitive status, ie you cant land anywhere within the Federation, then you quickly start having some problems beyond your ego. If you are deep enough inside Federation (or whatever faction you operate within) then you might not even have fuel to get to a safe station.

You are a prime example of the mentality that needs to be considered when increasing penalty and bounties, so I thank you for your input.

Please show us the system that has no neutral system within 5 jumps that could be his safe haven ?

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Not just about increasing ego. If penalty also means fugitive status, ie you cant land anywhere within the Federation, then you quickly start having some problems beyond your ego. If you are deep enough inside Federation (or whatever faction you operate within) then you might not even have fuel to get to a safe station.

You are a prime example of the mentality that needs to be considered when increasing penalty and bounties, so I thank you for your input.

If you aren't allowed to park where you have a bounty, then you never have to pay it off. Currently, the only way you are forced to pay off your bounty, is if you respawn in a system/station where you have one. If you can never make the dumb decision to park there, well then Bounties are not a punishment.

 

[ChaosCloud]

This would discourage any sort of PvP in the game... sorry, but it's a really bad idea.

Random player killing does not equal greifing.
Someone following someone repeatedly killing them/ camping them and specifically targeting one player to cause disturbance is greifing.

Player killing will continue to exist in the game. There will always be the random people who will kill someone for no reason... why? It's the Internet.
Multiplayer does that to some people.

There are 2 things you can do to counter it:

1. Shoot Back, kill them first. If they shoot you first then they gain a bounty, you will not.
2. Play solo play.

You have to remember, pirating in the game is a legit career.
Sometimes a player will not give up their cargo and try to get away, the punishment for this is death.

If there was a ridiculous amount of bounty gained from killing another player, then no one will want to pirate.

Increasing bounties yes, stepping up the amount by factor of 5 no, what are you thinking? It would very soon go into ridiculous figures and basically stop any kind of pvp.

Btw, i have an idea:

>One way to counter mindless player killing (griefing?)

Shoot back.

Shoot back, best advice ever for the merchant with his T6 fully loaded with cargo for which HE paid the full price to make a more or less pitiful profit compared to losing the whole load and ship.

But as pointed out already, no matter how big the bounty gets, it will either not be worth it to stop murdering or it will instead be used to exploit the bounty system.
Simply as the given example, a friend kills him and then they switch places.

The only solution is probably to make someone who gets killed with a bounty have to pay it off upon death ontop of the ship rebuy.
If you don't have enough you don't get your ship back and will be left with a Sidewinder should your bounty exceed your available money, also the bounty should take priority over the ship so that there's actually some incentive to NOT build up an insane bounty just "for the lulz".
That way there is loss in the process which could take care of the bounty exploit. Even if his friend would kill him, he'd just "give" him the bounty and still had to pay for his ship on top.


Also how would this kill PvP? This is about pointless MURDER, as in killing a clean player "just for the lulz" (or whatever RP reason you'll come up with), if you're not willing to pay for that then maybe you shouldn't do it?
Just attacking a trader and demand his cargo, or take it by force by wrecking his ship and then breaking the hatch would not count as murder and therefore not increase the multiplier (if one would be used) so there you'll still get away cheap, way cheaper than the trader btw...
And if they manage to run before you manage to cripple them then you are presented a choice: let him go or take the bounty to make your point. Funnily enough, the first option is cheaper for both of you.

I guess pirating is only fun as long as there are no consequences, eh?

 

[Snarfbuckle]

-Make bounties to work like unclaimed bounties, they go away when you die, bounties are supposed to be a badge of honor for a criminal anyway...you guys dont PAY your fines do you???
-Set a cap on CMDR bounties at 500K - The main bounty is merely the amount of attraction the wanted man will get from local law enforcement
-Wanted status is not a hidden stat so every damn station and ship KNOWS he is wanted - double all repair costs and resupply costs in non-anarchy station to promote "Pirate Heavens"
-Limit mission types for wanted people to those suited for them like smuggling and murder, milkruns dont fit Blackbeard the pirate
-Add a temporary reputation change as a bonus towards crime factions and a negative one towards regular corporate factions while wanted
-Make law enforcement actually create a posse and a manhunt for notorious criminals (like those legendary X8 Vulture wings)

Come on, Elite DANGEROUS, does it feel DANGEROUS being a criminal in the Elite we play right now? I get more interdicted by Faction NPC idiots trying to take me out than actual law enforcement.

 

[CMDR Kantos Kan]

I agree, at present you get a bigger fine for carrying stolen goods or contraband in some systems.!!! I was fined 69,000 credits for picking up some cargo floating around in USS space.

You get a 69K credits fine for smuggling but only 6K credit bounty for murdering someone? That sounds a bit flawed...

I agree with you, though. I was fined 24K credits for smuggling prohibited goods that earned me 200K credits. If you kill someone and get only a 6K credit bounty on your head, it would seems that the system is flawed. I therefore agree with the OP that bounty should be increased.

 

[geoffrey.hdt]

I do both PvE bounty hunting, PvE undermining and PvP piracy.
I agree that bounty should be increased to about 10000-20000 per kill...

I mean, every week I take down about 30-40 ships while undermining, and end up with about 150-200k bounty. This is nothing compared to my credit balance and/or ship insurance claim.
When I do PvP piracy, I take down way less ships than when i undermine.

Also, low bounties on the head of wanted players, and the fact you must travel to specific systems to collect the bounties is why I do not do PvP bounty hunting. This, and all the ways players have to escape death.