The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[PavelKCZ]

Not because there are no other ways to talk about guilds than EVE has it (like in Lineage 2, Aion, SWTOR, and so on) but because these other examples are not feeding the automatic emotional cycle.

Funny that you mentioned Lineage 2 as an example of "other way" than EVE.

In the Lineage 2, you can crystal clearly see that Guilds (called Clans and Alliances in L2) are evil in the purest form and they represent exactly the behavior I mentioned in some other thread. Luckily, ED is not (by design) a game where the sheer non-sense of clan behaviour (which can be seen in L2) can be applied.

Few examples of the Clan/Ally behavior in L2.

1. Do you want to make the quest at Baium ? Pay ransom - piece of A grade equip or more.
2. Do you want to make the third class quest in Ketra - pay ransome daily
3. Do you want to trade in Goddard - you can't, because we have buffs from clanhall and we are crafting faster than you
4. Do you want a clan hall in Aden and fly dragon - you can't, because our Ally has all clan halls in Aden for our pet clans

etc. etc.

No, thanks.


Ooops, I forgot to mention another example from L2

B crystals - unavailable, because you need a paper, which can only be obtained from the Clan controlling the castle and collecting taxes.

or another example

Clan controlling Baium and other RBs destroying the raid drops (namely raid boss jewellery) just for a reason that no one else can have them.

 

[Asp Explorer]

still trotting out this?? even though it does not really happen in most places with guilds. Doesn't happen really in WoW or SWTOR or pretty much everyplaces I have been in a guild.

I will trot this out for as long as I feel the need to - or until FD gives a concrete statement on the matter and I can turn it into glue.

 

[Herik]

Yes, the against-arguments are still based on a mental concept claimed to have happened already.
And these conceptions are hard to let go because they are comforting - they don't require open mind and the "discomfort" of the unknown.

Basically it's a fear-based emotion. The more one revives this sort of chemical condition of the body, the thoughts follow - repetition (like we see these "arguments" here in the forums) embeds the concept and drives the thought toward the very same pattern. And it becomes an emotional addiction.

The bad news is that creation as a principle is born in that specific mental state where one can make himself independent of these chemically conditioned emotions. As long as they are running it's pointless to expect any change: the emotions drive the thoughts which recreate the same emotions which then trigger the same thought - and the cycle is there, an unconscious, automatic reaction. No added value in that really but it's there.
Breaking this chemical cycle which spins around the same emotions is possible, however for that one needs to willingly take the discomfort of the unknown. Open mind means risk as the "safety" of the well-known emotional cycles are gone when one is in the creative state. Excitement is the result: it's not about safety but being comfortable in the unknown and enjoy it.

It's all comes down to EVE when the word guild is mentioned. Then the witch hunt begins. Not because there are no other ways to talk about guilds than EVE has it (like in Lineage 2, Aion, SWTOR, and so on) but because these other examples are not feeding the automatic emotional cycle. No matter how one brings up arguments not at all related to EVE, the next denial reply is there that "I don't want you to affect my game like in EVE".

So I hope FD is conscious enough about these issues and can filter out the reflexive but one-dimensional posts from those which is venturing to the unknown to get creative and pursue joy.

Yes, DB was conscious about these issues and made his decisions known.

 

[Cmdr Cunomaglus]

I'm not really for or against guilds, as such (though I am dead against player-owned anything except ships and possibly once first person stuff is introduced, planetary strongholds something like those in SWTOR. Just a place to hang your hat, store your ships, hoard your stuff). I've enjoyed being in guilds in different games (my WoW and Age of Conan guilds were both awesome, filled with cool people with whom I played for years). But in this game? There's no guild content. What on earth do you need to divert precious developer time into creating guild tools for? If you need to communicate, there's a dozen ways of doing so - TeamSpeak, Vent, Mumble, IRC, whatever, they're all in use already by various groups of Elite players - without inconveniencing the devs whose time could be better spent making actual content for all of us rather than reinventing the wheel for a few of us. Perhaps one day, if appropriate content is ever brought into the game, then it might be time for FD to think about providing the tools for the job, but until then it's simply pointless and wasteful, IMO.

 

[Darkphoenix]

Yes, the against-arguments are still based on a mental concept claimed to have happened already.
And these conceptions are hard to let go because they are comforting - they don't require open mind and the "discomfort" of the unknown.

Basically it's a fear-based emotion. The more one revives this sort of chemical condition of the body, the thoughts follow - repetition (like we see these "arguments" here in the forums) embeds the concept and drives the thought toward the very same pattern. And it becomes an emotional addiction.

The bad news is that creation as a principle is born in that specific mental state where one can make himself independent of these chemically conditioned emotions. As long as they are running it's pointless to expect any change: the emotions drive the thoughts which recreate the same emotions which then trigger the same thought - and the cycle is there, an unconscious, automatic reaction. No added value in that really but it's there.
Breaking this chemical cycle which spins around the same emotions is possible, however for that one needs to willingly take the discomfort of the unknown. Open mind means risk as the "safety" of the well-known emotional cycles are gone when one is in the creative state. Excitement is the result: it's not about safety but being comfortable in the unknown and enjoy it.

It's all comes down to EVE when the word guild is mentioned. Then the witch hunt begins. Not because there are no other ways to talk about guilds than EVE has it (like in Lineage 2, Aion, SWTOR, and so on) but because these other examples are not feeding the automatic emotional cycle. No matter how one brings up arguments not at all related to EVE, the next denial reply is there that "I don't want you to affect my game like in EVE".

So I hope FD is conscious enough about these issues and can filter out the reflexive but one-dimensional posts from those which is venturing to the unknown to get creative and pursue joy.

Yeah, because it's not like I have ever seen entire guilds in WoW enter into the opposing sides quest giver areas and slaughter all the quest giving NPC's repeatedly just to be an annoyance or anything (sarcasm mode off)

 

[M00ka]

Damn I thought this thread would be dead and buried by now lol
.
I see the normal protagonists are still here (me included I guess) and the circular discussions are still spiraling.
.
As one of the anti-guild voters, one thing still remains. All those posting support are telling us all they want is communication tools, and that the introduction will only bring peace and harmony to the Universe. No guilds will ever exert any control over another player, I bet they will even treat NPCs with the upmost respect. But us naysayers who are predicting doom and gloom have never really played a true MMO and any guild type bullying we may have seen (but probably mistaken) was really either just an figment of our imagination or due to the PVP mechanics in the game.
.
It has been suggested to make a separate system, i.e. Solo, Open, Groups, and now Guilds but that doesn't seem to have attracted much fanfare from the Guildists. This confuses me as on one hand they are saying they won't interfere with a single player or anyone outside of their guild, but they still want those players around - why?
.
So how about this: FD allows guilds, and naturally all the little other things that the guilds will immediately demand:
Ability to add a guild prefix to the Commander Name
Ability to add a guild decal to your ship
Ability to add guild paintjobs to all your ships
Ability to add the guild prefix to your station, even if you don't own it (it will be your main base after all)
Ability to have a central account to manage the guild's credits
Ability to transfer credits, ships and modules between guild members
Ability to destroy stations and platforms, how else can a guild expand into another guilds system?
Ability to adjust pricing for commodities, fuel, ammo, outfitting and ships to give guild members an incentive to buy only from their station
Ability to change the economy of a station: if the guild is given lets say an Agriculture station, they might want an High Tech or extraction station as it suits their needs better.
.
But there needs to be some form of control as well, after all they are playing in OUR universe. So I think when a bunch of players want to form a guild, they have to apply to FD. FD will allocate a station for them to be based at on the understanding that certain rules must be adhered to. These rules include, but not restricted to:
No restricting any player from accessing your station
No overcharging any player for any commodity, module, fuel, ammo or ship - all prices are set as per the current Galactic standard.
No fees, threats of fees, or anything similar to be imposed on any player transiting your system.
Whilst guild vs guild fights are allowed, even encouraged, no non-guild player may be attacked or threatened to be attacked.
.
If any of the above rules are broken, the player causing the infraction is fined triple what the standard fine is currently set to AND the guild is fined five times the amount. If continued infractions occur, FD disband the guild and all guild members lose their ship.
.
Harsh I know, but you are introducing a whole new infrastructure into the game with no guidelines or penalties set for misbehavior.

 

[Cmdr Corran Antilles]

So the elite can't handle pilots working with other pilots....how is that elite? Seem new to me.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Yes, the against-arguments are still based on a mental concept claimed to have happened already.
And these conceptions are hard to let go because they are comforting - they don't require open mind and the "discomfort" of the unknown.

Basically it's a fear-based emotion. The more one revives this sort of chemical condition of the body, the thoughts follow - repetition (like we see these "arguments" here in the forums) embeds the concept and drives the thought toward the very same pattern. And it becomes an emotional addiction.

The bad news is that creation as a principle is born in that specific mental state where one can make himself independent of these chemically conditioned emotions. As long as they are running it's pointless to expect any change: the emotions drive the thoughts which recreate the same emotions which then trigger the same thought - and the cycle is there, an unconscious, automatic reaction. No added value in that really but it's there.
Breaking this chemical cycle which spins around the same emotions is possible, however for that one needs to willingly take the discomfort of the unknown. Open mind means risk as the "safety" of the well-known emotional cycles are gone when one is in the creative state. Excitement is the result: it's not about safety but being comfortable in the unknown and enjoy it.

It's all comes down to EVE when the word guild is mentioned. Then the witch hunt begins. Not because there are no other ways to talk about guilds than EVE has it (like in Lineage 2, Aion, SWTOR, and so on) but because these other examples are not feeding the automatic emotional cycle. No matter how one brings up arguments not at all related to EVE, the next denial reply is there that "I don't want you to affect my game like in EVE".

So I hope FD is conscious enough about these issues and can filter out the reflexive but one-dimensional posts from those which is venturing to the unknown to get creative and pursue joy.

Basically, this is one big dodge to classify the counter arguments as irrational, without actually addressing them. Which is indicative of not even wanting to consider any other position.

If they are indeed as you say fear-based and thus irrational, why not address them? You should have no trouble formulating a rational argument against the specific arguments.

edit: By the way, I never played Eve, never brought it up, don't care about Eve.

 

[Cmdr Corran Antilles]

Again with the putting words in people's mouths.

People trying to control other players is a pvp problem or a personal problem. Not a guild problem.

Tools that allow people to talk to others in no way gives anyone control over anyone. And if people are grouping up and attacking people that is a pvp problem that already exists in the game. Tools to talk to others does not create that problem.

 

[Asp Explorer]

So the elite can't handle pilots working with other pilots....how is that elite? Seem new to me.

The elite don't care. It's the poor peeps demanding things and trying to form Unions and demand better wages etc. Like those ugly scenes in the 80's. Miners on strike? Demanding more pay and better conditions? We can't have that - Close the Mines!

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Again with the putting words in people's mouths.

Ahem ...

So the elite can't handle pilots working with other pilots....how is that elite? Seem new to me.

 

[Dave1235]

Drunks of Sol have no rules and no requirements - drink what you like to excess* and enjoy Elite

Only for playing Elite though - no driving or operating real machinery or trying to chat up the cute girl in the supermarket

<looks over shoulder> <whistles> (anyone seen Yaffle recently? ).

I AM IN! & so is my part time co-pilot CMDR Redwine*, although he won't join the forums, maybe I should ask him join just for the vote , actually lets not talk about him, I had to report him for TDA (TWOC now), I had some heat from the pilots federation about some late night insurance claims and he is "taking one for the team*".

I can't believe you brought the "cute girl in the supermarket" into it, I am sure she is a open vs solo vs groups exclusive analogy, are you trying to get this thread merged

OT, I won't post the link again to EGX2014 again but the change on DBOBE's face when asked about guilds says it all. FD will never say no, it would cost too many sales. The mmo tag has caused some to buy the game without research and left them feeling disappointed, but they won't remove it to avoid a bit of forum agro, that's what we are here for .

I think Robert mentioned ~ 25K Kickstarters (bless them for backing this game, I only wish I knew earlier, lets just remember for one minute, without them there would be no Elite Dangerous! (thank you all))

Beta backers would be much higher > 100k? but I couldn't even guess how many bought the DLC).

Fictional scenario. DBOBE bumps his head and forgets everything he said before, and demands guilds in the game.

I decide I don't like that and its not what I bought, having played the game I wouldn't get a refund (after many hundred hours over 13 months I wouldn't expect one, for the game I have played), not having ever used (or even seen) the DLC I would be due one for the DLC, and I might well ask for it, lets guess 25% bought the DLC (I did it looked like a good deal at the time) and decide they want their ~£40 for the DLC back, and if they do play again it will never be in open, FD refund £1,000,000.

I would have thought if FD were intending to include guilds in Elite they would have gone for the C/S model and subscriptions, something that could allow big fleet battles.

Don't get me wrong I have been in guilds in several games for > 8/9 years and they were a big part of the game (in those games), without them I might not have stayed so long, Elite is not "those games" and guilds are not what was sold, I thought I bought CMDR Jameson against the world where cooperation would be there and PVP rare and meaningful YMMV.

Don't trust CMDR Redwine, I left him for a minute and he had bought & equipped a mining Asp spending half my cash, he tried to justify it by saying "we" could change it for an explorer set up real cheap (idiot). Anyway I am looking for a new co pilot, I heard CMDR Jack Daniels gets a bit punchy & CMDR Vodka has a bad attendance record, post CV's here (when Yaffle is not looking)

 

[Mohrgan]

I was/am attracted to FD's no guild policy. I believe diverting attention from the original road map (as vague as it has been) is not warranted. FD should up-grade the Communications System to allow for outside groups to organize. The Social aspects of the game should be expanded, with a view for groups to operate.

This should all be done through the Comm's System. So far FD has not been in favor of Guilds, nor personal/guild holdings, I have every reason to expect FD to offer a solution that fits in with their vision. Elite doesn't need guilds, but it could use a way for players to get in touch with each other.

 

[Sysmon]

Day 3. This thread is still alive, despite being short one important poll option. It is partly my fault, I know I could stop posting.

But please, somebody, remove the three other poll options if you are not going to add the important fourth option:

NO PLAYER GUILDS BUT LIMITED PLAYER-OWNED STRUCTURES!!!!

<vanishes in a puff of puffiness>

S

 

[Asp Explorer]

How about Guild owned Structures but NO Players!

 

[Darkphoenix]

How about Guild owned Structures but NO Players!

Repped for the LOL

 

[Cmdr Corran Antilles]

By the way maybe you guys haven't noticed...but there are already guilds in the game. You have noticed you can join a group right? All we are asking for is for them to give us some communication tools to go with something that is already in the game.

 

[Asp Explorer]

By the way maybe you guys haven't noticed...but there are already guilds in the game. You have noticed you can join a group right? All we are asking for is for them to give us some communication tools to go with something that is already in the game.

Then ask Mobius on how he manages to do it. He's a really nice chap, I'm sure he'll oblige.

 

[Mohrgan]

By the way maybe you guys haven't noticed...but there are already guilds in the game. You have noticed you can join a group right? All we are asking for is for them to give us some communication tools to go with something that is already in the game.

We don't need guilds, just a better in-game communications system. If guilds already exist, that issue is settled.

 

[PavelKCZ]

By the way maybe you guys haven't noticed...but there are already guilds in the game. You have noticed you can join a group right? All we are asking for is for them to give us some communication tools to go with something that is already in the game.

Do you know a fantastic utility named Team Speak ? You can use this for chat/voice comm in your ED group. As a bonus, nothing need to be changed in ED game.