Why is everybody complaining how much of a "grind" Elite is if every other MMORPG is exactly the same?

[Clawhammer]

Because this game wasn't meant to be an MMO.

That said, you don't HAVE to grind. I've been in an Asp for about the last 6 months, still perfectly happy pootling around in it.

That is nice that you have fun with this ship, but what are you doing?

Are you exploring? You automatically follow the path of grinding your exploration rank to elite. (Ok you could remove your exploration data, but that would be a loss o cash)
Are you trading? Grind for money, nothing more
Are you figiting? You grind money, rep and your fighting elite rank
You try to rank up in Fed or Empire? Grind
Powerplay? Grind!
Mining? Grind too :-/

Even if you dont want to grind in this game, no matter what you do, you follow on of these grinding paths. If you want or not.

 

[Renegade Roach]

Every game has a grind in it. Pokémon is a grindy game. Even Space Invaders was a grindy game (don't believe me? "I need 2,000 more points for another extra life" ... so you grind to get the points.)

No, every game does not have a grind in it. I've been playing Rise of Flight, no grind in sight there. Deus Ex, no grind. Crusader Kings II, no grind, Kerbal Space Program, no grind. I could go on but it would be boring and hopefully you get my point. People have been conditioned to accept that 'the grind' is part of gaming, in particular part of online and mmo gaming. Many of us hoped that Elite would break away from this old paradigm, sadly Frontier have fallen for it hook, line and sinker.

 

[Vasious]

I still dont get thing Grind then anyway

Most of life is repeating the same activities for an incremental gain
Even hobbies, sports and games.
Enjoyment I think comes from the perception of the reward.


Sometimes I wonder if I awarded a "level" for every completed claim file, people would grind for more "levels" at work.
Or reward fake Credits by the millions

 

[Kayweg]

Grind =/= Grind.

Every game will have repetitive tasks, it's about how much variation within these tasks you encounter.

Just as an example, and please don't accuse me for wanting to make ED into Eve, i don't.

I spent a lot of time PvE'ing in Eve, running missions.

Many of them were multi-stage, some required you to retrieve items from a hostile ship, some were pure kill missions, others could involve mining, some were simple fetch stuff missions and so on....so far not that different to ED.

There was tactical variation to your approach, as different faction ships you'd encounter would require different load-outs and ammo types.

Killed npc ships you could loot AND salvage, the materials you found you could break down into raw minerals for crafting....or simply sell them off.

Upon completion you'd earn individual standings with the specific mission giver (persistent NPC agent), and you'd earn standings, on a smaller scale, with the corporation he represented.....that way you'd reach higher tiers and thereby

more varied and more rewarding missions become available to you.

On top of that, you'd earn faction points with which to buy faction specific modules, ammo, ships, blueprints etc.

So much for a rough, and far from comprehensive, description.

Did mission running in Eve become a grind ?

Oh, absolutely.

The difference is, as far as i can see it, there is just more variation and challenge WITHIN that grind to not make you mind that much.

I have had similar experiences in other MMORPGS, which ED is NOT and doesn't have to be either.

I don't mind grinding per say, but it can be made more interesting.

There's a difference between a game activity being repetitive and being monotonous.

 

[Renegade Roach]

Star Wars: Galaxies was (and still is) hands down the best MMORPG there ever was, until the Combat Upgrade change and class changes.

Regarding the grind in Elite: I just feel that a bigger ship lets me do the same things I do today only a bit faster.

SWG was a ludicrous, bug filled shambles full of broken 'content' and bizarrely unbalanced combat. But yes, it was the best mmorpg ever That was almost entirely down to the social aspects of the game, the exact thing that FD and a significant portion of the 'old school' Elite players have resisted. It's sad, because SWG showed how a game can be hugely social and open without ever being dominated by a group. Many people here need to get over their 'OMG EVE NOOOOO!' phobia and let this game breath. That includes Frontier.

edit: btw SWG was hugely grindy if you let it be... to get the resources for crafting, running missions for credits etc all involved a hefty grind. It's just that the rest of the game made up for it so you didn't care.

 

[Vasious]

No, every game does not have a grind in it. I've been playing Rise of Flight, no grind in sight there. Deus Ex, no grind. Crusader Kings II, no grind, Kerbal Space Program, no grind. I could go on but it would be boring and hopefully you get my point. People have been conditioned to accept that 'the grind' is part of gaming, in particular part of online and mmo gaming. Many of us hoped that Elite would break away from this old paradigm, sadly Frontier have fallen for it hook, line and sinker.

Crusader Kings II can be seen as a repetition of arranging Marriages, fabricating claims, Pressing claims, realm management, Plotting and picking the optimum choices in a limited set of events basically unrestricted by the traits of the character you are playing, repeating the same activities for a small gain each time, if you so choose to.

Grind is perception made worse by the idea that there is one optimum way to play and that is the only way to play, CKII above as an example, once you know the mechanics, there is a long list of if x then z actions to paint the map your colour.
Enjoyment comes from playing sub-optimally

And we come back to Elite Dangerous where people Grind for the maximum Cr/Hr and loath to play any other way then complain of the grind.

 

[Unfluffydave]

Every game has a grind in it. Pokémon is a grindy game. Even Space Invaders was a grindy game (don't believe me? "I need 2,000 more points for another extra life" ... so you grind to get the points.)

Exactly, every single game out there has "grind".

Pacman you ground magic pills until you could eat the ghosts, donkey kong you jumped barrels repeatedly etc etc the original Elite was a massive grind. Computer games with missions/quests are all limited by what can be coded but all boil down to the following types no matter how much fluff and lore you dress them up with:

Kill x number of mobs
Interact with x number of objects
Take this object somewhere

The complexity and depth of a pen and paper roleplaying game simply cannot happen in a computer game.

 

[Jukelo]

And we come back to Elite Dangerous where people Grind for the maximum Cr/Hr and loath to play any other way then complain of the grind.

But ED is currently mechanically too simple to let you enjoy it as just a game once you scratch the varnish a bit to see what's below. And since there's barely a game there, people do the next best thing, they work towards unlocking bigger shiny ships.

 

[Alien]

No, every game does not have a grind in it. I've been playing Rise of Flight, no grind in sight there. Deus Ex, no grind. Crusader Kings II, no grind, Kerbal Space Program, no grind. I could go on but it would be boring and hopefully you get my point. People have been conditioned to accept that 'the grind' is part of gaming, in particular part of online and mmo gaming. Many of us hoped that Elite would break away from this old paradigm, sadly Frontier have fallen for it hook, line and sinker.

I disagree with you ... every game has a grind element to it, you might not think it has, but it will have.

 

[Brujah]

Having these as tradable commodities certainly would be very interesting:

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net...f_Guard.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110306025315

Would those count as Imperial Slaves still, I wonder?

Long live Leman Russ and The Emperor!

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I personally don't see anything in ED as grind, but as choice to do or not to do stuff. I play ED for experience, and I personally like what I get from it. Problem is, ED is nightmare-ish for players looking to complete something. It's long game. People force themselves to grind, in result complaining that game is grind.

What's difference is that for me it's fun and interesting that I know that while missions for example is generated, outcome is unique and is taken into account. Yes, people complain that game doesn't go far enough in displaying those changes or not making player decisions more impactful to the rest of the game, but fundamentally, difference is huge between ED and other MMOs.

So in MMORPGs I can do stuff over and over again, and won't matter much to the outside world. In ED it does. A little, but does. That's for me is biggest difference and that's why it matters.

- - - Updated - - -

But ED is currently mechanically too simple to let you enjoy it as just a game once you scratch the varnish a bit to see what's below. And since there's barely a game there, people do the next best thing, they work towards unlocking bigger shiny ships.

That's popular excuse and I understand reasoning, but I personally don't feel that way. I suspect problem is that ED doesn't make you feel unique, and that might be denting lot of fun for lot of players - as other games make you very, very special.

 

[Brujah]

TBH it's not really about the grind: almost all games have some element of grind to them, it's an easy way of keeping the player busy and building up expectation which hopefuly (if your game is well designed) leads to a feeling of achievement when you reach your temporary goal. When playing Minecraft, you have no issue grinding a bit for resources, because you can already think of all the great things you'll be making with that diamond. It will allow you to build new stuff that adds depth to the gameplay, you'll build complex contraptions and impress your friends...
But I think for many people the issue with is, what would be the motivation in ED? Grinding credits to get the next ship... and then what? Your new ship will bring you no new gameplay, all you can do with a bigger ship, you could do with a smaller one, except a bit better.
It's not like X3 where at first you don't mind the trade grind because you're doing it so you'll be able to afford to automate your trade ship and then the gameplay will move on to something different, with you no longer flying your ships but instead figuring out where to send your traders and how best to protect them. Then eventually even that takes a backseat as you start to build stations and the whole thing goes from a micro to a macro level and you have to be careful not to completely tip over the local economy.
There is no such evolution of gameplay in ED, it's really always doing the same thing over and over. What you do in your first 10 hours playing ED, is exactly the same thing you'll be doing in 100 hours. Except you'll have a different cockpit. If ED made you look forward to great things to come, things wouldn't even feel like a grind: it would just be progressing through the game.

And yes, exactly this.

Given I can already kill Anacondas (at least, the lower ranked ones that don't have reinforced bulkheads) in my Asp, I'm sort of wondering what the point in actually continuing to upgrade my ship is. The only difference between the Asp and a more expensive ship is that it will be marginally easier to do the things I can already do, meaning I can earn yet more money, that I can then spend buying a more expensive ship in which to earn yet more money... ad infinitum.

This is sincerely different to a game like WoW when you know that you at least have end-game content (in raids) that you'll only ever experience if you put the work in.

 

[Parmo]

Grind is in the eye of the beholder at the time of the beholding.
The way people grind their moaning on this forum is quite amusing at times and a full-on grind at other times.
People just like to moan, I guess.

 

[Jukelo]

I suspect problem is that ED doesn't make you feel unique, and that might be denting lot of fun for lot of players - as other games make you very, very special.

If that wastrue, people would also complain about EVE, and people who love EVE wouldn't complain about ED not making them feel special.

 

[Maxulic]

a lot of people here are complaining about Elite being a "grindfest"

Elite: Dangerous is so grindy that it would put many Korean F2P to shame...

 

[Flavourless]

...Grind is in the eye of the beholder at the time of the beholding...

So is moaning

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

If that wastrue, people would also complain about EVE, and people who love EVE wouldn't complain about ED not making them feel special.

EVE makes players to feel special, as there's player market only - NPCs doesn't exist per se - and you can clearly have a huge impact on game if you clever enough.

 

[Morbad]

Even if all these things have some flaw, how does that excuse the same flaw in something else? It's not like the aspect in question is intrinsic to anything.

Not saying Elite is particularly grindy, unless you make it so, but if it were, I sure wouldn't be trying to excuse it with silly logical fallacies like "these games are grindy too!".

 

[DjordjeDtW]

Grinding (credit, gold) and Farming (trade or craft material) is legal in RNG mechanic, it's allowed.
Elite Dangerous already have that RNG mechanic and you guys know that very well.

Pirate's grind, Traders grind, Explorers grind and Bounty hunters grind.
You scream, I scream We all scream for a Ice grind

 

[Renegade Roach]

That's popular excuse and I understand reasoning, but I personally don't feel that way. I suspect problem is that ED doesn't make you feel unique, and that might be denting lot of fun for lot of players - as other games make you very, very special.

I know you like this theory, but it's making a lot of assumptions about the mindset of other players. I think the problem is more that people look at things like CG and PP and see a huge bar that has to be filled to 'win' (so yes, Elite does have 'win' situations). That bar can only be filled be an extremely limited number of extremely repetitive tasks. No matter how you cut it, carrying PP packages from your HQ to a prep or expansion system is never going to vary. Now, that could still be ok because you could mix it up with other activities. Except that it's a competitive, time limited mechanism. If you don't get all your packages to X before the opposition and before the timer runs out you 'lose'. And for PP, when you 'win' one system what next? Move onto the next of potentially dozens of races which are indistinguishable other than by the names on the map. And at the end of the week? Well, get ready to do it all over again, and if you don't be prepared to lose.

This is what people are talking about when they talk of Elite being 'a grind'. This type of mechanism grinds the fun and the life out of the game and the player. There is no leeway or room for creative thinking and play, no room to experiment... simply a treadmill which must be run in order to achieve what the game sets out for the players.

Now, if you potter about doing the odd mission, handing in a few bonds for merits here and there without really caring about the result, perhaps pop into a RES now and then and do a little exploring on top then you can tell yourself that 'there is no grind, it's people doing it wrong'. To an extent you'd be right, that's how I play the game. Thing is, it's also willfully ignoring the gameplay design and direction which FD have followed since launch. We are shutting our eyes to the aspect of the game we don't like and ignoring it. We are not playing the game fully, as FD have implemented it and as they have clearly intended their players to behave.

People are perfectly right to claim that Elite is grindy. It is. Ignoring it can allow us to still enjoy the game, but denial isn't so helpful and claiming that those talking about the grind are misguided is presumptuous.