Why is everybody complaining how much of a "grind" Elite is if every other MMORPG is exactly the same?

[Jukelo]

EVE makes players to feel special, as there's player market only - NPCs doesn't exist per se - and you can clearly have a huge impact on game if you clever enough.

You can have a big impact in EVE if you dedicate enough effort to it. But don't tell me the game goes out of its way to make you feel special: this is no elder scrolls, the universe doesn't revolve around YOU. And ED is doing the same, although to a lesser extent.
Recently I single-handedly flipped a 2k pop federation system in favor of a pirate faction, so obviously the game wants player to have an impact. Now how much impact the game wants a player to have is another question, but the issue isn't so much there.. the problem is what will change for me? Nothing.
A few goods will stop being illegal. What do I care? The police is too bad to scan players because of the way the the game always spawns them at the same location around stations, way too far to be a threat. Also, security might go down for players trading here.. who cares about security status? It doesn't influence police response, and anybody can easily run away from pirates anyway.
See, this is where one of the game's problems lie: not that it doesn't acknowledge your actions, it does to some extent, but the consequences for your actions have no impact on how you play the game. I constantly run around with a bounty worth several hundred thousands on my head in the system I operate in... and it doesn't matter. The police sometimes react, but I can either just kill them with ease or just escape, and at no point am I in real danger of losing my ship.
When people say they want the game to make them feel part of the universe they don't mean the game should treat them like they're the new Nerevarine and start some convoluted storyline centered around themselves. People just want consequences. They want their gameplay affected in profound ways by their own actions. I'm fairly certain that this is part of the vision for the game, only it is terribly executed.

So when the game makes you feel like nothing you do matters, then people stop doing things hoping to make a difference for themselves or the universe: they start doing it to get new stuff.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

It all depends on how you define GRIND.

For me a grind is repeating simplistic game mechanics mixed with simplistic game progression. Example 1, moving object from A to B, then B to A. Example 2, killing the same NPC over and over again in the same location. These are done to fill a bar, or achieve an unlock.


Non-Grinding games are about the game world and game play, which have a goal other than filling a bar or achieving an unlock.

Examples:
Project Cars is not a grinding game - you might be going around and around the same track, but it is a game of skill will set goal. You are not going around the track to fill a bar or achieve an unlock.

Kerbal Space Program is not a grinding game. In this game you use skill, knowledge and intelligence to achieve a goal of your own making. The game does not rely on simplistic game mechanics (moving object from A to B), and it does not require you to fill progression bars.




To those that say life is full of repeating menial tasks, I say that will heavily depend on how you live your life and what sort of job you have.


Also, this:

 

[Jukelo]

@Granite:
I guess the ED area on this image was based on Kickstarter promises, the DDA and developer diary videos, maybe they should update it considering how far removed from the reality of the game this is. It sounded so awesome back then.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

@Granite:
I guess the ED area on this image was based on Kickstarted promises, the DDA and developer diary videos, maybe they should update it considering how far removed from the reality of the game this is.

Yes, the Elite area is based on what Elite should / could one day be.

 

[Renegade Roach]

Crusader Kings II can be seen as a repetition of arranging Marriages, fabricating claims, Pressing claims, realm management, Plotting and picking the optimum choices in a limited set of events basically unrestricted by the traits of the character you are playing, repeating the same activities for a small gain each time, if you so choose to.

Grind is perception made worse by the idea that there is one optimum way to play and that is the only way to play, CKII above as an example, once you know the mechanics, there is a long list of if x then z actions to paint the map your colour.
Enjoyment comes from playing sub-optimally

And we come back to Elite Dangerous where people Grind for the maximum Cr/Hr and loath to play any other way then complain of the grind.

A game having repetitive elements is not the same as it being 'grindy'. There's a qualitative difference. All games have mechanics and/or rules which are repeated to an extent, otherwise they would not be games. Sticking with CK2, yes there is an 'optimal' way to play to achieve certain outcomes, but this largely involves meta gaming the system. There are various ways you can achieve your goal in the game, and your goal can also vary and the randomness of events will cause you to react and adapt or modify your strategy.

CG and PP, the main 'content' we have been given since launch, are not the same. Or take exploration, no matter how many thousands of systems you visit nothing will change. You will never have to deal with anything unexpected. You will never need to adapt your play style to survive. You just load, point, click ad nauseam.

I disagree with you ... every game has a grind element to it, you might not think it has, but it will have.

EXplain to me where the grind is in Rise of Flight (it's a WW1 flight sim, if you don't know it)? You could claim that having to take off and land every time makes it a grind, but that's ludicrous. Part of the reason I enjoy it is that there really are not any goals or targets which push the player to grind. Even in campaign mode you can just focus on staying alive and being 'good'. Same for multiplayer, it comes down to a pure test of flying skill. Or take Deus Ex, there was a grind there? Your notion of gaming seems to be constricted simply to fit the argument. Unless you are going to claim that every single activity in life is essentially a grind I can't agree, that's a little too dark even for me.

Edit; Granite, you posted while I was typing and I can't +rep you again. People are making specious arguments as to what 'grind' actually is in order to fit their view.

 

[matemaster]

in most MMO you have to grind in order to be able to play particular content of the game (I stopped playing those games)
In ED you dont have to grind. You can enjoy all content ED currently offers without a grind.

 

[Lima]

What game is that? Looks really cool!

 

[kilvenny]

Its space - the distances involved are huge and therefore the time commitment is large even for the simplest fetch and carry mission - this makes the grind more obvious. One of the big things that is missing is rankings, rankings in the galaxy and in a power. Rankings give you something to aim for that matches you against others which gives a carrot. If I do this, I get x and that will take me up y positions. Therefore there is a purpose to the grind. In most games you are leveling up so again there is a reward stream other than credits. Elite has neither. PP again exposes the grind, there are no rankings, no mechanics where you can tick off that you have done x task, so the only rewards are credit and merit points which are minimal.
I have played MMO's and they all had grind, but the great reward was going up the rankings. Your gold, your cities, your soldiers increased but it was your ranking in a guild and in the game that was the big driver for me and I doubt I am alone. Yet its missing in ED. Who has the most credits, most kills, most whatever. Its all there it just needs collating and revealed to the players. Galnet could have the top players list. Automatic content and competition.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

http://i.imgur.com/qrgsKwi.jpg?1

What game is that? Looks really cool!

It's the game I hope we one day have.

I've edited the image to reflect the fact Elite isn't currently like that...

 

[Ving]

Whenever there are resource based objectives/goals in a game there is always potential for it to turn into a grind if the content that it's wrapped in is superficial.

By resources I mean:
Elite combat rank = kills
Elite trader rank = CR traded
Elite explorer rank = systems scanned
Navy ranks = missions completed
PP = merits

In all of the above objectives the content is pretty superficial, that's why it can seem like a grind. The only real reason to play Elite is "I get to fly cool spaceships". At the moment, that's pretty much it. The only way it's not a grind is if you don't make any specific objectives but just like flying spaceships / pew pew. Which begs the question, why put the objectives in the game in the first place?

When it comes to context/story, NPC interaction, player interaction, world interaction, the idea of a living breathing universe, supercruise, station variety, etc. there is very little depth.

Hence the grind.

Games like Warcraft are a grind, but at least the grind is 'usually' wrapped up in content and lore that actually has some depth, and a quest structure that is far more interesting than "get us some fish".

 

[Renegade Roach]

What actually concerns me is not so much that elements of the game are grindy. It's that grindy elements are usually either a product of simplistic and lazy design or a cynical attempt to 'lock' players into a game by giving them a rabbit to chase. Sadly CG and PP smack somewhat of both. Like you, Granite, I hope that one day we get the Elite we dreamed of and which was sold to us by Frontier. It's getting harder for people to keep that hope when they won't tell us what is planned, and everything they've given us post release is shallow and grind based.

- - - Updated - - -

In all of the above objectives the content is pretty superficial, that's why it can seem like a grind. The only real reason to play Elite is "I get to fly cool spaceships". At the moment, that's pretty much it. The only way it's not a grind is if you don't make any specific objectives but just like flying spaceships / pew pew. Which begs the question, why put the objectives in the game in the first place?

This is a very pertinent question. I believe they would have been far better off working on core mechanics and enabling us to make our own objectives. CG and PP were 'quick fixes' designed to tie people into the game through repetitive tasks, no good.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

This is a very pertinent question. I believe they would have been far better off working on core mechanics and enabling us to make our own objectives. CG and PP were 'quick fixes' designed to tie people into the game through repetitive tasks, no good.

I disgree. They were clearly put in for meta game foundation to which they can build around. People assume it's priority because FD said so. That's nonsense. Lot of things are designed in specific order because they need CG and PP in place to move forward later.

And you can already make your own objectives.

 

[marx]

Let's be honest here: we can just as well say that the original Elite was grindy. You grinded for credits for better equipment (and in the sequels, also ships), and you farmed NPCs to get that Elite ranking after 6000 kills. So in this sense, ED is like the original Elite, with multiplayer.
It might just be me, but I've never seen any MMO game where nobody complained about it being grindy.

 

[Jukelo]

That's nonsense. Lot of things are designed in specific order because they need CG and PP in place to move forward later.

In a game trying to immerse the player in the role of a spaceship pilot, they needed the current implementation of PP, which takes you completely out of it and gives you mechanics and presentation you'd expect from a board game?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

A lot of the reason many people are complaining is because the original design documents and videos didn't really talk about this type of game play. Instead they talked about emergent game play. Early on Elite wasn't really refereed to as an MMO, that has only came about in the last year or so.

To be fair, a lot of the people saying the game is a grind are not backers.

 

[Vasious]

A game having repetitive elements is not the same as it being 'grindy'. There's a qualitative difference. All games have mechanics and/or rules which are repeated to an extent, otherwise they would not be games. Sticking with CK2, yes there is an 'optimal' way to play to achieve certain outcomes, but this largely involves meta gaming the system. There are various ways you can achieve your goal in the game, and your goal can also vary and the randomness of events will cause you to react and adapt or modify your strategy.

CG and PP, the main 'content' we have been given since launch, are not the same. Or take exploration, no matter how many thousands of systems you visit nothing will change. You will never have to deal with anything unexpected. You will never need to adapt your play style to survive. You just load, point, click ad nauseam.

The grind is in your perception, the CK2 forum is full of people claim it too is too shallow and predictable and repeditive
Perception
As you say Exploration is You just load, point, click ad nauseam but one can set your own goals, enjoy the vistas, ocassionally hit a contact binary or have to readjust your route to make sure you have fuel.
Why is it okay for Ck2 to be able to say "There are various ways you can achieve your goal in the game, and your goal can also vary and the randomness of events will cause you to react and adapt or modify your strategy." and it not be a grind when you can say and do the exact same in Elite and it be a grind.

The Optimization of CK2 Meta gaming, is not the use of all the trade tools etc to maximize the Cr/HR meta gaming too, and both a grinding but it is not forgivable in ED?
You dont need to meta game in either, you can set your own goals in both.

The difference is *you* feel like ED is grinding but CK2 isnt
I love CK2 but loath it MP as *I* find it a grind to keep up against the inevitable min/maxers who will remove you from the game as soon as they realize you are setting your own goals to have fun and thus are not min maxed.

Grind is perception

Any activity can become a grind, and usually adding other players is what creates the desire for min/maxing grinding behaviour

Doesnt even have to be competitive.
I have had some terrible pen and paper RPG games where someone has to meta game their way to a min max munchkin to be better than the rest of the party, for the some reason of ego, even when we are all part of the same team on the same side; to the point of actively criticising the other players for not min maxing

Doesn't matter how much emergent game play is possible, people will trend towards what gives them the most the fastest and call that the grind regardless of all the other options available.
Only one build or role of combo will be the best and all you do is repeat that then comment on how nothing is fun.


You is generally 2nd person plural usage in this post not the person I am quoting in particilar

 

[Obsidian Ant]

To be fair, a lot of the people saying the game is a grind are not backers.

Totally new and old players alike are saying it.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

This is a very pertinent question. I believe they would have been far better off working on core mechanics and enabling us to make our own objectives. CG and PP were 'quick fixes' designed to tie people into the game through repetitive tasks, no good.

I disgree. They were clearly put in for meta game foundation to which they can build around. People assume it's priority because FD said so. That's nonsense. Lot of things are designed in specific order because they need CG and PP in place to move forward later.

And you can already make your own objectives.

 

[Sphider]

In my oppinion the game is as much a grind as you make it. If you do not like to grind credits to buy a python as fast as possible then simply don't do it. A grade your Viper or Anaconda and have fun bounty hunting or do quests. Buy a transporter and do trading if you like. Equip a sidey or hauler and go exploring. I mean many people here are complaining about how much of a grind elite is but that is only the case because they expect to be able buying an anaconda in a few days of playtime. People should concentrate on enjoying the game and stop racing through it,

 

[Oss133]

Why is everybody complaining how much of a "grind" Elite is if every other MMORPG is exactly the same?

I do apologise. I didn't realise I was doing that. I will attempt to stop it immediately.