REVOLUTION!!!
Pirates and Traders
- Thread starter your everyday pirate
- Start date
REVOLUTION!!!
David Braben, said that the pirating, and how that works is still under development. He said he would rather players work together but won't force them. Funny he sees it like me, but knows that if he doesn't cater to everyone then some won't buy it.
It's not a matter of being sensitive. It's a matter of choice, that's what this games all about. That's great you are fine playing at the whim of some dude that just got a divorce and wants to rage. All good, fact is all the danger is for the traders not the pirates. Looks like you're new, look up MOBIUS there's thousands that take part because they don't want to be apart of pvp. So like it or not, you can attack my emotional well being, don't even know you, you're just some random joining in on the attack of one guy who is trying to make a place for everyone in this game. I don't care how you play, we all play different. I'm not asking to change open I'm asking to add a feature to make all happy.
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This conversation is ridiculous. Comon... I don't even care if their are straight PKers out there. As it's been stated many times before in many different threads where people are complaining. Game is called Elite: Dangerous.
What I gather is a select few people would like the game changed because their fragile ego's can't handle losing their shinny ship to a player. A player that acts NO different then the NPC's do. Explain how Elite handles the difference between losing a ship full of cargo to a NPC and a player is in game? It's handled by treating them exactly the same! The only difference is your childish reaction to the loss caused by another player.
I get interdicted by NPCs all the time and they fire right away. Boo hoo. I just escape or fight back. It's part of the game.
Exactly, it's part of the game and my guess is if this thread was about an NPC killing a trader it would be a page at most telling the OP to HTFU. Because it was about a player it's 10 plus pages of different ways to justify their childish reaction to being killed by a player.
Yes, I am new to this game in the sense that I just started playing it on release to xbox. That doesn't mean I can't read. Every time I see anything about piracy, I see you crying about it, and you're insulting and judgmental. And you say that I'm just some random guy that is joining the attack, but the fact is, I'm a player just like you, with an opinion, just like you. It's obvious that you're the kind of person who only cares about what you want and anyone that disagrees with you is wrong. You have solo. Eventually, you will have private play. Quit trying to be the Dictator of Elite Dangerous. As soon as they release the private play, you can play it in your antiseptic little world, and the rest of us can play it the way it is. You say you want it good for everyone, so what is wrong with doing it that way? You say you're not asking to change open. Well, there will be private. You're crusading for a cause that's already been decided. Let it go, would ya.
The problem with all the suggestions to disable the trader and take their cargo without killing is that they don't work. Look at my earlier posts in this thread and I've explained why it doesn't work.
Also bear in mind that most people worked out the most efficient way to pirate back in beta. A lot of us have been playing for over a year and we're telling you what works and what doesn't after a thousand hours of play time. In my case I'm giving my perspective from both a pirate and a trader who traded up to an anaconda in open.
The bottom line is that if you don't want to risk getting killed by a player (which is actually perfectly acceptable under the current game mechanics) then don't go in open mode.
Also bear in mind that most people worked out the most efficient way to pirate back in beta. A lot of us have been playing for over a year and we're telling you what works and what doesn't after a thousand hours of play time. In my case I'm giving my perspective from both a pirate and a trader who traded up to an anaconda in open.
The bottom line is that if you don't want to risk getting killed by a player (which is actually perfectly acceptable under the current game mechanics) then don't go in open mode.
I had let it go. Even posted to another post a player was basically saying the same. I warned it its pointless. Much like some seriously disturbed ppl in the world humanity prefers to make excuses for their actions rather than see their actions for what they are.
This is different than npc kiddo, going by the fact that 10s of thousands are on MOBIUS shows a great number of players don't want to play solo, but want to coopt this game and not deal with players that feel like just pking.
I had dropped it. Hadn't responded. Than you randomly pull my text from deep within just to keep it going. So you're the instigator. And I have a right to my opinion and if you read through here you'd see the mods have posted here, funny how it has never been in response to what I've said but to what others have said. Because I have not called out specific ppl out or broke the forum rules. Sorry you don't like what I have to say. But private is great and all but what many of us want is two open options open pvp and open PVE. And from the email response i just received this is being considered. And these stupid battles can end. But this is where players are aloud to voice their opinions you don't have to like it. So just don't respond if you don't agree. Welcome to elite btw.
You mean you want two modes, elite:dangerous and elite:casual? Seems reasonable.
Call it what you will.
Many mmo games have both modes. And its called dangerous because of the original. PVE and pvp modes. E for environment. Some ppl enjoy this mode
I wrote this in another thread. What do you guys think?
There needs to be a real penalty for murdering other players. I propose that instead of the 5000CR bounty the killing player gets for each murder, their bounty should be 1% of the cost of the ship they just destroyed. If a pirate murders a trader in a Type-9, that means that the pirate would get a (roughly) 790.000 bounty on their head for just that kill.
Obviously, this would be instantly exploited however; A pirate could just go around and kill Type-# ships and rack up a multi-million bounty in a matter of hours - and then have a friend kill them and split the entire reward. The counter for this would be that the bounty payout one receives for killing a player pirate depends on what ship the pirate is flying, lets say, 10 percent of the pirates ships cost.
For instance:
Pirate kills trader. Traders ship was worth 100m CR. Pirate therefore gets a 1m CR bounty. Pirates ship is worth 1 million CR: BH kills the pirate. Since the pirates ship is worth 1 million CR, and the bounty payout is 10% of that ships value, the payout would therefore be 100k CR. The pirate now has a 900k bounty. Days later, the pirates is flying a ship worth 200k CR: Another BH kills the pirate and based on the cost of the pirates ship, the BH receives 20k CR. The Pirates bounty is now 880k CR. And this keeps going until the entire bounty is off the pirates head. A pirate in a Sidewinder does not give a bounty payout. Otherwise a person with a bounty would just constantly hop into free Sidewinders and sit outside to die until the bounty is paid.
This means that a pirate can not exploit his or her own bounty by having a friend repeatedly killing them, because they would lose money every time.
Math is not my strong side though, maybe the bounty payout needs to be less then the insurance cost for this be un-exploitedable, but you get the idea.
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And now for fixing all the professions in relation to each other:
To fix the pirating profession FD needs to fix all the professions. There is currently hardly any Risk Vs Reward (RVR) for any of the professions - including pirates. The Fun Vs Reward (FVR) however is fairly accurate (except for explorers). I suggest following changes to the game.
First we must take the populated space and sort it in categories depending on security. These zones should be Safe (high security) Unsafe (low Security) and Lawless (no Security). Imagine an onion cut in half; the core of the onion are the Safe systems. These are the core systems of each faction. These systems are surrounded by a layer (middle layers of the onion) of Unsafe systems belonging to the factions. These are the systems bordering another factions Unsafe systems. Enveloping both the Safe and Unsafe systems are Lawless systems (the outer layer of the onion).
Now we can define what each security status provides and don't provide.
Safe Systems:
A) Boasting the fastest and strongest police responses, pilots are more safer here than anywhere else. The consequence of this however is that the presence of NPC Pirates are lower, making NPC-bounty hunting not as viable. Player Pirates will have a hard time making a successful pirating career in these systems as well because of how fast and hard law enforcements responds, benefiting traders.
B) These systems features stations ranging from the smallest outposts to the largest stations and populations in the hundreds of millions or billions. Most stations/economies are High Tech and Industrial, Tourism and some Agricultural. Trading man-made goods between Safe Systems nets you only a small margin of profit.
C) You can find all faction-legal commodities in these systems, and they sell all types of ships and modules. Since these systems have a large infrastructure in place already they can (and have) enforced the strict laws of their faction, making the black market a rather big presence here. These systems demand metal and minerals from Unsafe systems, and supply man-made goods to Unsafe systems.
D) Because these systems have been colonized for so long their asteroid belts have been mined out of their most precious minerals and metals long ago. The result is they have a high demand on all types of metals except for the most common and cheapest ones.
Unsafe Systems
A) Mediocre to low strength and speed of response by law enforcements due to being outlying systems. NPC pirates are running fairly wild here making NPC-bounty hunting a good way for combat-oriented players to make money. Player Pirates can do their thing here without being too worried about NPC Police. Because of this, traders are vulnerable.
B) These systems features smaller to medium outposts and stations. Most stations/economies are Extraction, Refinery, Terraforming and some Agricultural. Trading minerals and metals between Unsafe Systems net you only a small margin of profit. These stations only sell some of the ships; mostly the lower rated ones (Asp and below maybe?)
C) Man-made commodities are more scarce than in Safe Systems, but they sell all the different types of metals and minerals. These systems demand man-made commodities and supply metals and minerals. Because of the small presence of law enforcement, all laws are not followed and as a result, not all commodities that are illegal in Safe systems are illegal in Unsafe systems, which gives the black market a smaller presence (and gives smugglers somethings to transport to Safe Systems).
D) These systems have not been exploited as much as Safe systems. They have a lot of good resources in their asteroids (meaning many good RES-points for NPC-bounty hunting). NPC pirates prowl these belts looking for miners.
Lawless systems
These are basicly the unexplored/unpopulated systems. They should mostly have enviromental dangers I guess? I've never explored so maybe an explorer should come up with an idea.
What this creates is a clear supply/demand between Safe and Unsafe systems.
1) Traders: To make the most money, they need to trade between the resource rich Unsafe systems and the well developed Safe systems. Traders can stay in Safe Systems if they want and trade between the stations there, but the profit margins will be a lot lower since all stations demands and supplies similar things.
2) Bounty hunters need to venture out to Unsafe systems to make the most money bounty hunting NPC Pirates. They also work as a deterrence to player pirates looking for traders to raid. Bounty hunters can also stay in Safe systems if they want, but the lower spawn count there means that they won't make as much money.
3) Pirates will have to try and catch traders in Unsafe systems, since they will have a much harder time in Safe systems to do so (unless they are in a wing). They need to be careful however that player bounty hunters won't come for the assistance of the trader. Since Unsafe systems only sell mostly lower rated ships, Pirates need to manage their bounty and thus, try not to kill other traders (if they want to be able to access high quality weapons and ships that is). Pirates will be in a disadvantage towards bounty hunters since bounty hunters can buy bigger ships in Safe systems. Since there is a clear supply/demand pirates should not have a hard time finding targets (both other players but also NPC traders).
4) Smugglers can find all the illegal things in Unsafe systems and sell them in Safe systems. Because the strong law enforcement presence in Safe systems however, they need to be careful.
Risk Vs Reward and Fun Vs Reward
- Trading and mining are the most boring (or peaceful, depending on how you look at it) professions and should be highly profitable since the fun factor is fairly low. Since they need to go to Unsafe systems regularly they are more prone to be attacked by other player and NPC pirates.
- Exploration and smuggling should be the next most profitable professions. Exploration because you're basically playing Solo Mode in Open Play (again, fun vs reward factor) and Smuggling because risk vs reward factor.
- Pirating and Bounty hunting should be equally profiting. These are considered the most fun aspect of the game I'd dare say and thus should have the lowest income (but not as low as today). Pirates will have plenty of targets since most defenseless players (miners and traders) will buy/sell and mine in Unsafe systems to take back to Safe systems. Bounty hunters will have plenty of both player pirates and NPC pirates to hunt.
The map could be divided something like this:
There needs to be a real penalty for murdering other players. I propose that instead of the 5000CR bounty the killing player gets for each murder, their bounty should be 1% of the cost of the ship they just destroyed. If a pirate murders a trader in a Type-9, that means that the pirate would get a (roughly) 790.000 bounty on their head for just that kill.
Obviously, this would be instantly exploited however; A pirate could just go around and kill Type-# ships and rack up a multi-million bounty in a matter of hours - and then have a friend kill them and split the entire reward. The counter for this would be that the bounty payout one receives for killing a player pirate depends on what ship the pirate is flying, lets say, 10 percent of the pirates ships cost.
For instance:
Pirate kills trader. Traders ship was worth 100m CR. Pirate therefore gets a 1m CR bounty. Pirates ship is worth 1 million CR: BH kills the pirate. Since the pirates ship is worth 1 million CR, and the bounty payout is 10% of that ships value, the payout would therefore be 100k CR. The pirate now has a 900k bounty. Days later, the pirates is flying a ship worth 200k CR: Another BH kills the pirate and based on the cost of the pirates ship, the BH receives 20k CR. The Pirates bounty is now 880k CR. And this keeps going until the entire bounty is off the pirates head. A pirate in a Sidewinder does not give a bounty payout. Otherwise a person with a bounty would just constantly hop into free Sidewinders and sit outside to die until the bounty is paid.
This means that a pirate can not exploit his or her own bounty by having a friend repeatedly killing them, because they would lose money every time.
Math is not my strong side though, maybe the bounty payout needs to be less then the insurance cost for this be un-exploitedable, but you get the idea.
______________
And now for fixing all the professions in relation to each other:
To fix the pirating profession FD needs to fix all the professions. There is currently hardly any Risk Vs Reward (RVR) for any of the professions - including pirates. The Fun Vs Reward (FVR) however is fairly accurate (except for explorers). I suggest following changes to the game.
First we must take the populated space and sort it in categories depending on security. These zones should be Safe (high security) Unsafe (low Security) and Lawless (no Security). Imagine an onion cut in half; the core of the onion are the Safe systems. These are the core systems of each faction. These systems are surrounded by a layer (middle layers of the onion) of Unsafe systems belonging to the factions. These are the systems bordering another factions Unsafe systems. Enveloping both the Safe and Unsafe systems are Lawless systems (the outer layer of the onion).
Now we can define what each security status provides and don't provide.
Safe Systems:
A) Boasting the fastest and strongest police responses, pilots are more safer here than anywhere else. The consequence of this however is that the presence of NPC Pirates are lower, making NPC-bounty hunting not as viable. Player Pirates will have a hard time making a successful pirating career in these systems as well because of how fast and hard law enforcements responds, benefiting traders.
B) These systems features stations ranging from the smallest outposts to the largest stations and populations in the hundreds of millions or billions. Most stations/economies are High Tech and Industrial, Tourism and some Agricultural. Trading man-made goods between Safe Systems nets you only a small margin of profit.
C) You can find all faction-legal commodities in these systems, and they sell all types of ships and modules. Since these systems have a large infrastructure in place already they can (and have) enforced the strict laws of their faction, making the black market a rather big presence here. These systems demand metal and minerals from Unsafe systems, and supply man-made goods to Unsafe systems.
D) Because these systems have been colonized for so long their asteroid belts have been mined out of their most precious minerals and metals long ago. The result is they have a high demand on all types of metals except for the most common and cheapest ones.
Unsafe Systems
A) Mediocre to low strength and speed of response by law enforcements due to being outlying systems. NPC pirates are running fairly wild here making NPC-bounty hunting a good way for combat-oriented players to make money. Player Pirates can do their thing here without being too worried about NPC Police. Because of this, traders are vulnerable.
B) These systems features smaller to medium outposts and stations. Most stations/economies are Extraction, Refinery, Terraforming and some Agricultural. Trading minerals and metals between Unsafe Systems net you only a small margin of profit. These stations only sell some of the ships; mostly the lower rated ones (Asp and below maybe?)
C) Man-made commodities are more scarce than in Safe Systems, but they sell all the different types of metals and minerals. These systems demand man-made commodities and supply metals and minerals. Because of the small presence of law enforcement, all laws are not followed and as a result, not all commodities that are illegal in Safe systems are illegal in Unsafe systems, which gives the black market a smaller presence (and gives smugglers somethings to transport to Safe Systems).
D) These systems have not been exploited as much as Safe systems. They have a lot of good resources in their asteroids (meaning many good RES-points for NPC-bounty hunting). NPC pirates prowl these belts looking for miners.
Lawless systems
These are basicly the unexplored/unpopulated systems. They should mostly have enviromental dangers I guess? I've never explored so maybe an explorer should come up with an idea.
What this creates is a clear supply/demand between Safe and Unsafe systems.
1) Traders: To make the most money, they need to trade between the resource rich Unsafe systems and the well developed Safe systems. Traders can stay in Safe Systems if they want and trade between the stations there, but the profit margins will be a lot lower since all stations demands and supplies similar things.
2) Bounty hunters need to venture out to Unsafe systems to make the most money bounty hunting NPC Pirates. They also work as a deterrence to player pirates looking for traders to raid. Bounty hunters can also stay in Safe systems if they want, but the lower spawn count there means that they won't make as much money.
3) Pirates will have to try and catch traders in Unsafe systems, since they will have a much harder time in Safe systems to do so (unless they are in a wing). They need to be careful however that player bounty hunters won't come for the assistance of the trader. Since Unsafe systems only sell mostly lower rated ships, Pirates need to manage their bounty and thus, try not to kill other traders (if they want to be able to access high quality weapons and ships that is). Pirates will be in a disadvantage towards bounty hunters since bounty hunters can buy bigger ships in Safe systems. Since there is a clear supply/demand pirates should not have a hard time finding targets (both other players but also NPC traders).
4) Smugglers can find all the illegal things in Unsafe systems and sell them in Safe systems. Because the strong law enforcement presence in Safe systems however, they need to be careful.
Risk Vs Reward and Fun Vs Reward
- Trading and mining are the most boring (or peaceful, depending on how you look at it) professions and should be highly profitable since the fun factor is fairly low. Since they need to go to Unsafe systems regularly they are more prone to be attacked by other player and NPC pirates.
- Exploration and smuggling should be the next most profitable professions. Exploration because you're basically playing Solo Mode in Open Play (again, fun vs reward factor) and Smuggling because risk vs reward factor.
- Pirating and Bounty hunting should be equally profiting. These are considered the most fun aspect of the game I'd dare say and thus should have the lowest income (but not as low as today). Pirates will have plenty of targets since most defenseless players (miners and traders) will buy/sell and mine in Unsafe systems to take back to Safe systems. Bounty hunters will have plenty of both player pirates and NPC pirates to hunt.
The map could be divided something like this:
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No I'm not removing the ability to dock, I'm saying there should be a bloody high penalty for grief killing for the sake of it. I gave one or two options of how that could be achieved. What's wrong with that?
Pirating done properly should be no need for killing. Plenty of methods for good targeting to disable an escape, and stealing cargo.
If you want to play pyschopath, that's up to you, but I don't think that's a very community minded attitude and those people should be in solo, as they are simply griefers. No one I know wants them in their games (unless they pick on a tooled up bounty hunter by mistake, but my bet is they, like all bullies, avoid anyone likely to win a fight).
But that's the thing, killing other players does not automatically make it griefing; It is part of the game mechanics. Sorry that you feel it is a play style that shouldn't be in the game, but your options are wildly biased.
The penalty system, risk vs reward system and fun vs reward system all need to change - to benefit all the play styles.
If you can't see how that removes the ability of psychopaths to dock then you probably shouldn't be making these types of suggestions. Why should I be forced to play in a community minded way? I want to play the game in a way that I find most entertaining and if that means killing others for sport then you can imagine what I'll be doing with my game time.
I think that's probably the most reasonable suggestion I've heard (the risk vs fun vs reward), and you might have something there with the murder penalty as well, although, it probably does need a little refinement.
Didn't mean to copy that entire post.
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I think that's probably the most reasonable suggestion I've heard (the risk vs fun vs reward), and you might have something there with the murder penalty as well, although, it probably does need a little refinement.
Didn't mean to copy that entire post.
Thanks! And yes it definitely needs some refinement. Glad you liked it.
Have you sent your idea to the devs? If not, you should. I'm sure they've got a suggestion/feedback thread.
I guess it could work out. If there were in attractive reason for traders to risk pvp in unsafe systems I guess it could make piracy a little more 'legitimate'. However, I can't imagine that it would be any different in the end of the day. The same people who complain about getting killed now will still complain later even if FD uses this idea. It will just be a slightly different conversation.
Keep the game as is and add a PVE sever with zero aggressive Bot's. This way the players have zero threat of having their ship destroyed by an AI unless they cause the encounter. In return this server is separate and anything earned can't be used in the official server. This way they what they want.
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