That's funny because FE2 had more in it the ED does as I remember it and who makes the same game from 15 years ago - things move on they don't stay stuck in the passed. We expect with better processing power, better games - not the same crap regurgitated - I might as well go play FE2 then. I can land on planets, I can do missions and taxi people around the universe.
Why is everybody complaining how much of a "grind" Elite is if every other MMORPG is exactly the same?
- Thread starter noldunar
- Start date
That's funny because FE2 had more in it the ED does as I remember it and who makes the same game from 15 years ago - things move on they don't stay stuck in the passed. We expect with better processing power, better games - not the same crap regurgitated - I might as well go play FE2 then. I can land on planets, I can do missions and taxi people around the universe.
My biggest issue for the missions/contracts within Elite is there is no end goal unlike most MMO's ( im not talking end game ) In other MMO's such as WoW once you have completed a certain amounts of missions you are rewarded with something greater than gold/credits it maybe a select piece of armor or a novelty item and in certain MMO's you actually see what a difference you make to an area by putting in the work.
Elite does not have a reward system, like this which at times makes the "grind" seem like a pointless rinse and repeat grind when it comes to missions and now with the rep decay it is becoming increasingly frustrating because you take a break from that system your currently in or god forbid the game for a day or two and your work has been wiped out.
How could they solve this for me? Add depth into the contracts with small story arcs, greater rep rewards per station/system faster and more meaningful rankings within the faction you choose to support.
As and example of meaningful missions:
You jump into a random system looking for a trade route/bounties/mining or pirating and fly into the nearest star port to refuel, you check out the bulletin board and see that the station is in dire need of help.
An escort mission to wing up with several colonist ships and see them safely to a new outpost 75ly away pays well and offers a huge amount of faction rep. Along the way you will encounter pirates perhaps other lifeforms and may receive a contract mid flight to find a straggler ship or perhaps a nefarious stranger will offer you credits to turn on the colonists or you may even encounter other commanders who may have been sent to help or hurt your cause.
Once you arrive ( if you arrive ) at the new outpost you are now asked to help build up supplies defend against pirates sent on courier missions to nearby systems and stations to build trade routes, As you do this the small outpost grows from one medium landing pad too adding a small then a second medium and eventually a large pad as other commanders stumble upon the location until eventually it has become a coriolis station and you have reaped the rewards over several months building it up.
Rewards could include:
Faction rep
System rep
Paint skins
Module upgrade eg: your cargo bays are now E.5 adds two more tons of cargo to each bay.
Storage hangers.
Even new ships ( old and new designs who does not want another eagle right?)
This could be done in several systems at a time leading to further human expansion within the galaxy, Other missions could include a rebellion within the system itself and an outpost needs to be put under siege, take out that colonist expansion or there is a massive asteroid heading our way and it is two weeks out destroy it before its massive 100,000 ton pristine metal core slams into our planet.
Elite does not have a reward system, like this which at times makes the "grind" seem like a pointless rinse and repeat grind when it comes to missions and now with the rep decay it is becoming increasingly frustrating because you take a break from that system your currently in or god forbid the game for a day or two and your work has been wiped out.
How could they solve this for me? Add depth into the contracts with small story arcs, greater rep rewards per station/system faster and more meaningful rankings within the faction you choose to support.
As and example of meaningful missions:
You jump into a random system looking for a trade route/bounties/mining or pirating and fly into the nearest star port to refuel, you check out the bulletin board and see that the station is in dire need of help.
An escort mission to wing up with several colonist ships and see them safely to a new outpost 75ly away pays well and offers a huge amount of faction rep. Along the way you will encounter pirates perhaps other lifeforms and may receive a contract mid flight to find a straggler ship or perhaps a nefarious stranger will offer you credits to turn on the colonists or you may even encounter other commanders who may have been sent to help or hurt your cause.
Once you arrive ( if you arrive ) at the new outpost you are now asked to help build up supplies defend against pirates sent on courier missions to nearby systems and stations to build trade routes, As you do this the small outpost grows from one medium landing pad too adding a small then a second medium and eventually a large pad as other commanders stumble upon the location until eventually it has become a coriolis station and you have reaped the rewards over several months building it up.
Rewards could include:
Faction rep
System rep
Paint skins
Module upgrade eg: your cargo bays are now E.5 adds two more tons of cargo to each bay.
Storage hangers.
Even new ships ( old and new designs who does not want another eagle right?)
This could be done in several systems at a time leading to further human expansion within the galaxy, Other missions could include a rebellion within the system itself and an outpost needs to be put under siege, take out that colonist expansion or there is a massive asteroid heading our way and it is two weeks out destroy it before its massive 100,000 ton pristine metal core slams into our planet.
Having played EVE for a long time, real player trading and crafting is something I miss.
I would be happy if EVE had the combat of ED.
The problem with ED is its lack of standard mechanics from others sandbox MMO (like crafting, trading, customization) and the lack prerequisites from singleplayer games like deep universe, storyline.
MMOs are same things over and over, just changing models and skins of models, and ohh, adding a bit of story.
Log on SWTOR forum for example and people complains how they have to grind side missions to get to endgame. How they have to grind their crew skills to create awesome armor sets, etc.
It's same story over and over. It's just worse with ED as people are forced to make their own narrative - majority of complainers never really wanted to do that.
There's reason why hard core first wave MMOs none survived. People really don't want freedom of choice, they want constant satisfaction of achievement.
Explain the huge success of Minecraft please.
Without something to *do* PL and leaving ship is just a band-aid on a bullet-hole.
People are generally risk-taking, but loss-averse. If they already have a good thing, they're going to be upset if that is taken away. Very different from gambling, which is about getting a big reward from a small outlay (risk).
There was a test done which was something along the lines of:
I can give you £10 right now, or I can toss a coin; if you win I give you £20, if you lose I give you nothing. Afterwards, you either give me £5, or I toss a coin; if you win you give me nothing, if you lose you give me £10.
Logically, you can just play it safe and be up £5 without any risk. But in both cases the majority of people gambled, firstly to try to 'win big' then secondly to avoid losing any of what they had.
I think many have played various space sims before and are just disappointed with the lack of variety in comparison to older space sims. Especially since Elite also drags the grinding out much more than most other multiplayer games and uses stuff like decay. This ends up making the game feel much grindier.
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GTA 5 is probably not the best example. Sure the single player has no grind to it. The multiplayer is quite fun, but it's also the most grindy experience I've ever had.
As a fellow who has long grappled with loathing MMORPG grinds, I eventually came to an understanding that the main fundamental to remember is, "It's not a grind as long as you're still having fun playing the game." It does not matter how long the treadmill is so long as you're still having fun running it.
Are you still having fun? Maybe yes, maybe no. But, considering different people enjoy different things, whether or not you have any fun does not really have any bearing on the next person's experience. Ergo, you cannot objectively state Elite: Dangerous is necessarily a grind.
Personally, I would say Elite: Dangerous suffers from a dearth of variety of activities. In something like World of Warcraft (everybody's poster child of success), there are DOZENS of minor activities to participate in. In Elite: Dangerous, you have about nine things to do, and many of them (Bounty Hunting versus Mercenary versus Assassin) have only very minor variations in what you are actually doing. It is a difficult formula to try to forward the players' commitment for long hours of play. If there were aspects of greater significance (such as a fully transparent, EVE Online-like, economy) and/or a greater variety of activities (such as making Power Play inclusive instead of exclusive to the central progression mechanic) then I think you would find more players would stick around longer.
As it stands, I would say Elite: Dangerous's primary appeal is the immersive feel of the simulation, which works right up until the players have mentally streamlined it out to get to the core of the gameplay. At that point, I recommend you go play something else for awhile until that streamlining wears off. Strictly speaking, being massively multiplayer was not the primary design goal of this game, being immersive was, so they would have to put a lot of work into it to achieve an MMORPG's appeal.
Are you still having fun? Maybe yes, maybe no. But, considering different people enjoy different things, whether or not you have any fun does not really have any bearing on the next person's experience. Ergo, you cannot objectively state Elite: Dangerous is necessarily a grind.
Personally, I would say Elite: Dangerous suffers from a dearth of variety of activities. In something like World of Warcraft (everybody's poster child of success), there are DOZENS of minor activities to participate in. In Elite: Dangerous, you have about nine things to do, and many of them (Bounty Hunting versus Mercenary versus Assassin) have only very minor variations in what you are actually doing. It is a difficult formula to try to forward the players' commitment for long hours of play. If there were aspects of greater significance (such as a fully transparent, EVE Online-like, economy) and/or a greater variety of activities (such as making Power Play inclusive instead of exclusive to the central progression mechanic) then I think you would find more players would stick around longer.
As it stands, I would say Elite: Dangerous's primary appeal is the immersive feel of the simulation, which works right up until the players have mentally streamlined it out to get to the core of the gameplay. At that point, I recommend you go play something else for awhile until that streamlining wears off. Strictly speaking, being massively multiplayer was not the primary design goal of this game, being immersive was, so they would have to put a lot of work into it to achieve an MMORPG's appeal.
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Minecraft success is about creating stuff and breaking it down for funsies. Kinda 'build your sand castle and watch it burn' vibe.
Creating stuff certainly sounds like freedom of choice and making your own narrative. Minecraft hardly holds your hand at any point of the game, and yet you say this is the kind of game people don't want (except the old guard defending the current state of Elite of course).
The mission system is where the emergent gameplay must reside in my opinion. The core gameplay is there, all the tools required exist, it's just a matter of having someone with enough imagination to put them to interesting use.
For example, rather than a simple "assassinate x", you could have a higher-value mission which requires you to use a hatch-breaker and steal the important cargo the target is carrying. Basically the same mission (hunt down and attack a given target) but the variation keeps it fresh.
You could then roll out further missions on top of this with a branching mission structure: "Excellent work, Commander. The cargo you recovered included a map showing us the location of the pirate base. We believe that is where the pirate leader, Bartholemew Beeble, resides. Travel to the COR 231 Anaethema system and eliminate him."
Nice.
For example, rather than a simple "assassinate x", you could have a higher-value mission which requires you to use a hatch-breaker and steal the important cargo the target is carrying. Basically the same mission (hunt down and attack a given target) but the variation keeps it fresh.
You could then roll out further missions on top of this with a branching mission structure: "Excellent work, Commander. The cargo you recovered included a map showing us the location of the pirate base. We believe that is where the pirate leader, Bartholemew Beeble, resides. Travel to the COR 231 Anaethema system and eliminate him."
Nice.
Every game is a "grind" - it's doing something that has no effect on "real life" and is always repetitive and constrained. I don't understand why anyone complains about "grind" -- that's what games are for.
The difference is: some make it fun. OK. But let's accept that the idea of a game is to do something pointless and repetitive, whether it's killing covenant in Halo, running raids in WoW, shooting people over and over in COD, or flying around in ED.
The difference is: some make it fun. OK. But let's accept that the idea of a game is to do something pointless and repetitive, whether it's killing covenant in Halo, running raids in WoW, shooting people over and over in COD, or flying around in ED.
You are comparing apples to oranges. In Minecraft nothing really threatens you, nothing really happens. Yes, it's freedom of choice because there's no actual choice to be made. It's just tinkering and constructing and then burning down. No real consequences whatsoever.
Now you are in this online world with consequences and danger. Freedom? Safe and guaranteed achievement please.
Please tell me it's NOT so. And it is hardly to do anything to do with content. People want this constant massage of achievement. They can't shake it. Because that's how they are trained, especially those with IT background.
For example, FD especially have said there's no mandatory requirement to play PP. Yet, there's huge confusion and complaining, people literary forcing themselves to play mode, to grind it to death...because achievement.
You know when I feel grind seeping in what I do in ED? I quit and do something else. That rarely happens, because I don't play it to death. Because no, I don't want to get that Anaconda in matter of weeks.
Stop treat game like pinjata. Seriously.
p.s. and Yes, I want MORE. Never said otherwise. Just I challenge notion that 'lack' of doing things are basis of grind people put themselves trough. It's not.
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This. Framework is important, as what they gonna do with it. I don't think they lack imagination. Just 1.3 was required to make mission system way more flexible for stuff like his. Hopefully we will see fruits soon, as they have hinted (1.4 maybe?).
Many/most/all MMO/MMORPGs are "grindy" because grind mechanics are easy to implement, and there are enough transient players to keep the game financially viable.
This goes hand-in-hand with progression being just the same gameplay with bigger numbers.
If you want to avoid grind, then the game can't reward it (this is especially true if you are trying to have a "realistic" dynamic economy underpinning the game-world). But then you need to give the players something else to do - which is much more interesting (and therefore expensive) to implement. The game needs to be able to generate quests/missions which have sufficient complexity and involvement to keep players interested and busy. Bonus if the outcome of these quests has lasting effect on the game-world.
From what has been mentioned in interviews by DB, I am hopeful that the intent in ED is to evolve to current BB missions into something like this.
So, then how to avoid the second half of the problem - new forms of gameplay need to be opened up to the players as they progress. I *really* hoped that this was what Power Play was promising - gameplay evolving from trade/combat/exploration to participating on the power-politics and macro-economics scale, earning positions of power and influence, a seat on the board, the guiding hand behind colonisation and political machinations...
Not so far it appears.
It is interested that you can find individual games at various "levels" of game play, but I have yet to see them joined-up - for example, consider an MMO which layered RPG, SimCity, and Civilisation into one environment.
This goes hand-in-hand with progression being just the same gameplay with bigger numbers.
For commercial games, why do more if this will bring in the money?
If you want to avoid grind, then the game can't reward it (this is especially true if you are trying to have a "realistic" dynamic economy underpinning the game-world). But then you need to give the players something else to do - which is much more interesting (and therefore expensive) to implement. The game needs to be able to generate quests/missions which have sufficient complexity and involvement to keep players interested and busy. Bonus if the outcome of these quests has lasting effect on the game-world.
From what has been mentioned in interviews by DB, I am hopeful that the intent in ED is to evolve to current BB missions into something like this.
So, then how to avoid the second half of the problem - new forms of gameplay need to be opened up to the players as they progress. I *really* hoped that this was what Power Play was promising - gameplay evolving from trade/combat/exploration to participating on the power-politics and macro-economics scale, earning positions of power and influence, a seat on the board, the guiding hand behind colonisation and political machinations...
Not so far it appears.
It is interested that you can find individual games at various "levels" of game play, but I have yet to see them joined-up - for example, consider an MMO which layered RPG, SimCity, and Civilisation into one environment.
- Mining on Planets
- Bombing runs
- Reconnaissance
- Exploration
- Resource Gathering
- Remote Controlled Ground Vehicles
- Landing Ports
- Aerial Combat
Just a few of the things I can think of. I will be very surprised if Frontier don't include at least a few of these.
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I agree. Which is why in the example, I was showing the single player version of the game.
Sounds like you've never actually played Minecraft if that's all you think it is. Also, nice bit of condescension cut with assumption about why people don't like parts of this game as much as you do. "Training", huh? Classy.
The whole point people are making here is not that grind exists as a concept, it's that in Elite it's painfully obvious, with a veneer of enjoyability that is easily scraped away if you're not careful. Life itself is a repetitive pattern. Breathe, eat, sleep. Till you die. If there was nothing interesting along the way to occupy your sentient mind you'd go insane with the repetition.
Therein lies Elite's biggest failing, that its repetition is easily exposed, thus becoming uninteresting more quickly than it should. It's not that people can't appreciate the game, it's that the game doesn't have much to appreciate past a certain depth. While the viscerality of being in the ships is really second to none right now, the REASONS for getting into these ships are shallow and unengaging for a great many players, for a great many reasons.
Stop blaming the players for not knowing how to "properly" enjoy Elite when it's the game that needs improvements. Plenty of other games have FAR more grindy mechanics, but also have far more fun trappings to keep said grind from being obviously and primarily that.
There is room for emergent gameplay everywhere:
RES sites: You kill a pirate attacking a miner; he thanks you and drops off some of his cargo. Maybe he contacts you later for paid escort. Future contact and now you're a regular until he is killed by pirates or YOU!!!
Mining: You mine an asteroid; an unknown artifact or element is uncovered. You bring it back to station for analysis. After some time you are contacted and told the artifact has properties similar to another artifact another *player/s* has found. You are tasked with taking the artifact to a research outpost where the items can be studied. Data collated points to a system of origin. Now you can work together with your new friends to uncover the mystery, possibly a deadly one!
Exploration: You stumble across an Earth-like planet; it seems like there is a transmission coming from the surface. You have just stumbled across a marooned pilot. He tells you he can get into orbit in his escape pod. You track down his signal-source and pick him up. He says that he lives in system x and will gladly pay you for rescuing him but you also learn he is wanted with bounty in system y. Choices. Btw, he has friends who don't forget or forgive.
Combat Zones: You help *clear* a combat zone; you are thanked by the admiral of the faction you fought for. He asks you for your assistance in a very important mission. You are to take a wing of his best pilots and intercept the surviving officer of the opposing faction who barely escaped. He cannot make it back with the intel he has. You intercept him and fall into an impossible trap! Do you try to kill him before you run or report back with failure. Your actions affect the balance of ships in future CZ's for a time. Success means the members of the wing stay with you until they die.
And I'm just getting started ...
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