High end fighters

[Mohrgan]

I have reached the point where I can afford to fit out a FDL. At the loss of my Dropship, but that is a small consideration. I am a Vulture fan. I love how nimble it is, and how I can basically fly the thrusters. What I'm after here is some comparison of the flight characteristics between these two ships.

I have the impression that the FDL is more like the Viper, than the Vulture. I never liked flying the Viper, so to save myself some searching, I'm not sure where I can find an FDL and it modules, I thought I'd ask for some comments, and insight.

Thanks in advance for your input.

 

[DentRed]

Fer De Lance is alot more like the viper then a Vulture but way better, I didn't really enjoy the viper as much as I could have But I love my Fer de lance as long as you toggle flight assist at times it is easy to get your target on point. Plus one shotting an anaconda power plant with the size 4 PA is so satisfying

 

[DentRed]

Well I disagree on it being hard though it can take alot of getting use to depending on load out and what aim mode you use. And the dropping the shields first is implied but would be obvious once he land's one shot since it does about 1/3 of a anconda's shield usually depending on their rank, Also i'm totally okay with that it would be like when I miss and take out their drive accidentally. Which I find more satisfying since they are just left at your mercy.

 

[Zplintz]

FD are adding better protection for the Anaconda power plant in a future update - so buying a ship for that ability alone may be a tad short sighted.

FDL is far more expensive to fit (and also therefore to lose) than a Vulture and it is harder to bring round on target against a ship but it will take a lot more damage.

It is good to have both in your garage.

Dropping the Dropship? You can always get it back later if you want to - however I am reading that there may be a Fed Dropship Mk II with us in a couple of weeks (for 1.4).

 

[Mohrgan]

I was afraid of that. Super Viper, huh? Well that puts the FDL off my list. I pretty much hated the Viper. Jousting is not my thing. I just heard that there will be a couple new Fed ships coming with 1.4. So, I'll just wait and see what turns up.

By the way, where did you hear about the sub-system targeting changes? I knew there was some issues there, but I hadn't seen anything concrete.

 

[Steve72]

Personally found the fdl a dissapointment. Load out is everything. Never go the hang of the huge hp. But I have limited space at home and fly with cheap joystick so struggle with fixed.

Went from vulture to python and although a but tanky in moving it felt awesome. Then got the fdl and the drop in firepower is huge.

Actually prefer dbs scout with its awful dps to fdl.

Sure ill jump back in it again and change my mind.

After a vulture I dont think you will like the maneuverability of fdl but each to their own as alot love the speed and you can dictate and disengage at will not relying on system jumping when things go wrong.

 

[h347h]

I was afraid of that. Super Viper, huh? Well that puts the FDL off my list. I pretty much hated the Viper. Jousting is not my thing. I just heard that there will be a couple new Fed ships coming with 1.4. So, I'll just wait and see what turns up.

By the way, where did you hear about the sub-system targeting changes? I knew there was some issues there, but I hadn't seen anything concrete.

If you want something like a vulture but bigger, the Imperial Clipper is the nearest thing. Pythons are damn good ships. Once you can kit one out to mostly B grade id suggest getting one.

 

[ocflyer]

...In practice, the Python actually seems to take more shield damage [than the FDL]...

The Python's A6 shield generator has optimal mass of 540T compared to the hull mass of 350T. The FDL's A5 shield generator has optimal mass of 405T compared to the hull mass of 250T. I believe that the Python's shield generator can take more hits because the Python's hull is 190T less than it's shield generator's optimal mass while the FDL's hull is only 155T less than it's shield generator's optimal mass, even though the FDL's A5 raw shield strength is 72MJ stronger than Python's A6 shield strength. The difference between a shield generator's optimal mass and the hull mass is very important!

 

[Io_Sys]

FDL is much better at PvP than PvE. Vulture can turn on a dime, FDL can't.
It's got pretty poor yaw and you need to boost into your turns with FA off to get the same results-- needs a lot of power pip management, but when you get the hang of it, it's fantastic.

FDL's advantages over the vulture:

1. Speed. seriously, you'll pretty much hit the vulture's top speed in reverse.
2. C4 Mount. Not many weapons for it, but when they hit they hit hard.
3. Armour. You don't want to be hull tanking, since the repair costs ain't cheap, but it keeps you alive. This is before I've even fitted Mil comp armour too.
4. Shields. Viper? good shields for a light fighter. Vulture? good shields for a heavy fighter. FDL? I'm rocking 750MJ right now. More than necessary actually, but if I downgraded to pulse I could probably hit 1000MJ.
5. Hardpoint placement. The C4 is mounted real low, but it's fine for bombing runs. C2 Mounts are spaced perfectly.

Honestly it's not really a question of vulture vs FDL but Python vs FDL. Python is miles better for PvE due to the 3xC3, even with space for 2 backup C2, plus it can trade.


Anyway, the upcoming Federal Gunship (2xC1,4xC2,1xC3) should be a cheaper alternative.

 

[h347h]

Edit: Also, how can something that's not so great for PvE be better at PvP? I have a hard time seeing that working; human players are still supposed to be harder to beat, so anything that's good at PvP should rock at PvE.

The C4 hard point and the raw speed.

 

[askavir]

Flow a FDL for a while... Honestly didn't like it, but it has it strenghts.

Its quite fast, its shield is huge, good armor, looks great. It huge hardpoint allows for some tremendous opening shot but...

Its very difficult do actually land a shot with the class 4 hardpoint on anything moving faster than an Anacoda, and the remaining far more usable 4 medium weapons feel very lackluster compared to Python, Clipper and even Vulture. And both the Vulture and the Clipper are far more agile.

On top of that, has very low fuel, terrible jump range, despite the fact that the FDL is bigger than an Asp Explorer.

It feels way too few ship for way too much money. Sold it, never looked back.

 

[h347h]

That hardpoint is virtually useless against anything smaller than an Anaconda, and I thought 'Condas were bad for PvP anyway?

No condas are the best at stand and fight pvp. The Python doesn't even stand a chance at a stand up fight if they are equally skilled pilots and both ships are A kit. They(condas) just cant catch anything that runs from them. Which is another area the FDL shines. If something runs they can boost up on it and plant that PA right up some ones tail pipe. Where a conda/python will watch a clipper/fdl low wake out. FDL are only ok 1v1 in pvp. But great in wing pvp since if you are not actively dodging the FDL it can do a ram/PA combo to rip shields off pretty fast. Which is right now the big thing since SCB stacking is king.(the reason the condas are great at stand up fights btw, they can run 9 total)

 

[Sire]

The difference between a shield generator's optimal mass and the hull mass is very important!

Sorry for the OT but I'm very interested in the subject. Can you PM me a link to a thread that explains this better? Does the optimal mass aspect work as for thrusters, i.e. the lower hull mass respect to optimal mass the better, or the hull mass must stick as much as possible to shields optimal mass?
Thanks in advance.

 

[Io_Sys]

Depends on what other characteristics it has. Those weapons won't do it much good if it turns like a T9. I doubt it will of course. And, being an Imperial, I'll probably still prefer the Clipper...

Edit: Also, how can something that's not so great for PvE be better at PvP? I have a hard time seeing that working; human players are still supposed to be harder to beat, so anything that's good at PvP should rock at PvE.

For the small things that count? Thrusters, hardpoint placement.
Big things? Speed, Shielding, Firepower.

The things fast as you? Vipers, Cobras and Clippers. You have better shielding and firepower than all of them.


EditSire: essentially for every ~10% (can't remember what the actual percentages are) of mass over the optimal shield generator mass, you lose a ton of shield strength.
I remember reading the same thread but I can't find it or I'd link it.
The main thing is, shield strength doesn't matter if you load up on heavy modules and cargo since it's only the base hull mass that counts.

E.g In the FDL's case it can fit a size 3, 4(stock) or 5 Generator.
A size 3A Shieldgen will net you just about 300MJ, as you're about 50-70% over the optimal mass limit.
A size 4A will get you just under 400MJ. (just within optimal mass.)
A size 5C (Optimal is almost double your hull mass) will get you comfortably over 410 MJ, 5A will get you about 470.
As you can see, the penalty is pretty hefty, while the bonus doesn't seem that great--
until you start cranking in shield boosters and realise a 5A has essentially the same stats as a 4A + A rank booster.

 

[h347h]

That doesn't answer my question. You're comparing the FDL to other ships; I'm asking how it can be good at PvP without being even better for PvE (I'd expect the reverse.)

The lack of large hardpoints and having 4 mediums. Large hardpoints are the most efficient pve weapons. That's why the vulture is good at pve. Its inability to carry loads of SCB make it less effective at pvp than other ships, kind of the opposite of the FDL.(vulture =good at pve but not so good at pvp) With out that sustained DPM the FDL doesn't stack up to the Python or the Clipper. The huge hard point makes it good at pvp because it can pop shields quick if used properly. Which is a huge deal in pvp, once a shield is down that's generally the end of it. By running or system sniping.

 

[GluttonyFang]

FDL vs Vulture huh?

FDL:

+Better module protection
+Higher Armor and Shield
+More power to play around with
+More firepower than the Vulture
+Faster
+Mass lock equivalent to that of a Clipper
+Six utility slots

-Terrible jump range
-Heat issues (scoop and railgun)
-Not nearly as maneuverable as the Vulture (Great lateral thrust, but poor yaw and pitch)

Vulture:

+Most maneuverable ship
+Decent firepower with two large hardpoints, but less than the FDL
+Slightly better jump range than the FDL
+More heat efficient

-Less internal slots and less power = less SCB
-Vulnerable modules
-Limited weapon selection (Dual pulse/beam + cannon are the most prominent)
-Less shield and armor than the FDL
-Only four utility slots and already struggling with power
-Slightly slower than a FDL
-Less Mass Lock factor

 

[Mohrgan]

It definitely looks like the FDL is not my thing. I thought that if it could fly with the Vulture I'd give it a go, but I am weak in the FA-Off department. Currently the Vultures thrusters allow me to largely go with out that. The straw that broke this camels back is the insurance excess. Four times the cost for getting my tail blown up. Maybe when I grow up and learn to fly I'll reconsider.

 

[h347h]

That makes some sense I guess, but I would think the large hardpoints would also help in PvP; they'd take shields down faster wouldn't they? Why would mediums be better? You can mount two large lasers on a Python and still put a class 3 plasma under the chin; that Large plasma may not be a Huge, but it can still do some nasty damage.

The Python is good at everything. After the conda the Python is the next best stand up fighter. It has IMHO the best weapon hardpoint placement in the game. Great jump range, can stack a good amount of SCB, decent utility mount amount, handles well for its size. If I didn't have 3 anacondas for each specific thing to do in the game id have kept my Python. The problem with the 4 mediums on the FDL is the power draw for sustained damage. Where the Python and Conda can run their larges for a long time and rip shields off easily.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Not enough to matter, I've found. FDL only has heat problems if you put almost full pips to weapons, or use railguns; I run lasers (usually c2 burst), route to engines then to weps, leaving 2-1/2 pips in each, and leave one pip in sys. That keeps me from overheating much.

...

Try to scoop with a 2A on a Vulture then try again with the same module on a FDL...

Btw... in case you didn't know, full pips into weapons is suppose to reduce heat. Lack of energy in the weapon capacitor is what creates extra heat...

I would love to see how long you survive in PvP with 1 pip in system...

 

[Mephane]

That hardpoint is virtually useless against anything smaller than an Anaconda, and I thought 'Condas were bad for PvP anyway?

I use a class 4 gimballed cannon, aka BFG, and while being tricky to use, it can hit Dropships, Pythons, Clippers etc. if you are close enough, you just need to keep the target below the nose of your FDL and let the gimbals do the rest. I must admit through, I would really love it if there were class 4 lasers, I think I'd put a class 4 pulse laser turret in there so that the entire hemisphere below the horizon has fire-coverage.