Elite / Frontier KS Update #3: Procedural Generation Video
- Thread starter Kipper
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If the younger generation doesn't like this stuff then to h*** with them I say. They are a lost generation, let's produce a new one instead.
Seriously, I'm saying that this needs to be done and to be done differently from games you see today. If I still dream about Frontier almost 25-30 years later, they had to be doing something right, even if I wished for more, nothing has come even close to match it.
He has a point tho anyone who cares what procedural generation is probably already understands it better than David can cover in the scope of that video and anyone else is probably going "yeah yeah... get to the bit with the flashy graphics already." it also concerns me that a lot of the footage very obviously is using placeholder graphics for much of the content - as someone with a fair bit of video game development experience I can understand that they've got most of the underlying mechanics functioning and the implications of what these can bring to the game and that a large part of work to do between now and release is fleshing out the real content - but to someone looking at the video wondering if they are going to put their money down its not going to be the most convincing.
I respect that David is trying to make the game he wants to play and I find it refreshing that hes not hyping up features or making grand promises that he knows he has no hope of keeping but it also means the publicity for the game is relatively low key compared to other mainstream gaming titles and I think in this day and age hes going to have to appeal as much to the fans as mainstream gamers who may have never even heard of elite to hit the kickstarter target or otherwise scale back on the goals and targets for the game if its going to be realised in some shape or form. (EDIT: http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showpost.php?p=26103&postcount=14 has some very good points on this but ultimately you have to be realistic to some degree. I can quite understand the desire to steer clear of a publisher
).I hope I don't come off as being overly negative but I really want to see this come to fruition and theres a lot of potential here to make something that is new and refreshing in what has become quite a stagnant market.
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Procedural generation is a USP for the Elite series but for this to work it needs to be pushed right to the limit - there is a need to do things that impress people, achieve the impossible, and blow minds in the way that Frontier's galaxy simulation did.
Clouds are cool. Gas giants with atmospheric layers that can be explored are cool. They're beautiful and I can see some definite gameplay potential but I'm not convinced they're going to be mind-blowing. And I may be mistaken, but I'm sure there are other games that feature clouds. What else can David and the team simulate using procedural generation?
Are there plans for exploring some locations (cities, space stations etc.) out of the ship? if there were procedurally simulated cities or colonies that were incredibly detailed, complex and realistic, that might be a start.
Also can the same approach be applied to other aspects of gameplay, for example, replacing "I have a small package I'd like you to take to Leesti" with a much more complex mission or event generator built along dramatic theory principles?
Clouds are cool. Gas giants with atmospheric layers that can be explored are cool. They're beautiful and I can see some definite gameplay potential but I'm not convinced they're going to be mind-blowing. And I may be mistaken, but I'm sure there are other games that feature clouds. What else can David and the team simulate using procedural generation?
Are there plans for exploring some locations (cities, space stations etc.) out of the ship? if there were procedurally simulated cities or colonies that were incredibly detailed, complex and realistic, that might be a start.
Also can the same approach be applied to other aspects of gameplay, for example, replacing "I have a small package I'd like you to take to Leesti" with a much more complex mission or event generator built along dramatic theory principles?
That's exactly what I mean! This isn't your typical game release, where the game is coming out regardless - these videos have to grab the less hardcore fans in order to reach the goal, and beyond. Nothing will do that better than some combat. People think of space, they don't think of trading, or how the game will work beneath the surface - they think of things like Star Wars - combat in other words.
I'm saying all this because I don't just want it to creep over the line, which is what it looks like doing at best right now. I want it to storm across the line and blow everyone away with a game that will more or less have something for everyone - from combat mad people to those who just want to relax and trade between star systems.
I feel the same way. Well said!:smilie:
I KNOW Frontier can do it, it's just so frustrating at the moment, so near and yet so far.
Jack
One thing I do think games - especially like this one, or vast multiplayer games need to move away from is heavily scripted story lines. They do offer more detail but they can also be quite rigid and linear, and even if you can choose to jump in and out of them Skyrim style, they do eventually take you along a set path to a set ending.
I'd definitely sacrifice some of the detail in 'briefings' for missions to see a game world that reacted to events and generated missions in response to things happening.
Please describe, sounds interesting - what are are these principles and how could it be made to work?
I'd definitely sacrifice some of the detail in 'briefings' for missions to see a game world that reacted to events and generated missions in response to things happening.
Please describe, sounds interesting - what are are these principles and how could it be made to work?
I'm not a big fan of procedural generation myself - a game the scale of elite needs some degree of it to be feasible in both development time and system requirements - but I've always found that inevitably it ends up quantity > quality - its extremely hard if not impossible to build in persistently engaging content on that scale from procedural generation. Its a great tool for fleshing out a world tho - things like asteroid belts, side missions, etc. but things like cities ultimately end up very boring if they are largely generated in this fashion.
Elite was the game that opened my eyes to the possiblities of immersive worlds on a computer and started me down the road to game development (mostly modding and enthusiast dabbling with engine design) so videos like this are interesting to me and as said on the kickstarter page might not be everyones cup of tea but I feel they don't present the game in the best manner to the general public and more casual elite fans (from reading on other forums theres still quite a few sitting on the fence with regarding to pledging).
To counter that space priate, it's likely the kids will speak to dad, who will want to take a look before giving over CC details and say "Wow" and pledge more
Don't worry about it - more videos are coming. This is just setting the tone.
Personally I loved it - spoke to my inner geek and confirmed my pledge amount.
You both have stated exactly how I am feeling! I quite enjoyed DB's video. This also confirms my pledge and now I am looking at stuff to sell so I can pledge more. I think I'll be now rolling up all my pennies to go to the bank.
Back in Feb. 2009 I posted this...
Now, my dream can be a reality! I wonder if my brother really needs that 40" TV? I could probably get a few bucks for it!
Whilst I, from a purely personal perspective, am hugely stoked to see what has been presented so far I've been trying to also see it from a purely marketing perspective. Demographic targeting is a difficult thing, more so when the subject matter is at times polarising. I think one of the enduring qualities of Elite/Frontier is that it has (as others have mentioned) a little something for everyone. Following on from that presenting something that appeals to a variation away from the hardcore nostalgic bunch has as much value as tendering to the classic space sim lot.
Automatically the demographics are narrowed by the use of Kickstarter as the exposure is limited to those that either follow gaming blogs/review sites, caught it on the BBC or came across it on some other tech related forums. Appealing to a broader audience within these demographics becomes that much more important and showing something that opens up a new path of expectation is a way to do this.
The thing is that Elite already has a set of expectations on which to deliver. Trading, Piracy, Bounty Hunting etc etc. These provide more than enough scope within which to contextualise content. I personally don't think that there is any need to deliberately pander to any specific demographic by making empty promises with potential game content that 'might' subsequently not make it to the full game.
As a marketing exercise the primary goal is to fulfill the Kickstarter target. The best way in my mind is to appeal to as broad a spectrum of potential customers as possible (yeah I know, call me captain obvious). Part of that is to get the information, in whatever form it takes, delivered to the eyes and ears of those with the cash. In my mind this takes building the critical mass back up as close as possible to the initial excitement that was raised when this KS was announced. What will do that? I haven't the foggiest.
Automatically the demographics are narrowed by the use of Kickstarter as the exposure is limited to those that either follow gaming blogs/review sites, caught it on the BBC or came across it on some other tech related forums. Appealing to a broader audience within these demographics becomes that much more important and showing something that opens up a new path of expectation is a way to do this.
The thing is that Elite already has a set of expectations on which to deliver. Trading, Piracy, Bounty Hunting etc etc. These provide more than enough scope within which to contextualise content. I personally don't think that there is any need to deliberately pander to any specific demographic by making empty promises with potential game content that 'might' subsequently not make it to the full game.
As a marketing exercise the primary goal is to fulfill the Kickstarter target. The best way in my mind is to appeal to as broad a spectrum of potential customers as possible (yeah I know, call me captain obvious). Part of that is to get the information, in whatever form it takes, delivered to the eyes and ears of those with the cash. In my mind this takes building the critical mass back up as close as possible to the initial excitement that was raised when this KS was announced. What will do that? I haven't the foggiest.
(Edit: replying to Kipper, my iPad fails at quote insertion)
>>Please describe, sounds interesting - what are are these principles and how could it be made to work?[/QUOTE]
I'll get back to you with more about this. A simple example of a dramatic theory is the three-act structure used by almost all Hollywood films - that could be used to generate random missions that appear complex, have dramatic points, build to a climax and have a satisfactory sense of resolution. So the mission starts with a protagonist (may or may not be the player) who has a desire but also obstacles such as an antagonist; first act ends with a game-changing revelation, second act is about the conflict and ends in failure, third act resolves the drama (in any number of ways).
>>Please describe, sounds interesting - what are are these principles and how could it be made to work?[/QUOTE]
I'll get back to you with more about this. A simple example of a dramatic theory is the three-act structure used by almost all Hollywood films - that could be used to generate random missions that appear complex, have dramatic points, build to a climax and have a satisfactory sense of resolution. So the mission starts with a protagonist (may or may not be the player) who has a desire but also obstacles such as an antagonist; first act ends with a game-changing revelation, second act is about the conflict and ends in failure, third act resolves the drama (in any number of ways).
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what will do that is basic kiss and tell marketing. Keep it simple! Lots of regular updates. The more the merrier, word of mouth is the biggest driver of any mass product. Elite KS needs a lot more revealed to entice folks to part with cash.
My suggestion, utilise what you have. look at the time of year. Its almost xmas, so offer up a gift option for Dad or son. Include the game and a special extra or two. Basic stuff guys, use what you can and keep it simple.
My suggestion, utilise what you have. look at the time of year. Its almost xmas, so offer up a gift option for Dad or son. Include the game and a special extra or two. Basic stuff guys, use what you can and keep it simple.
Proc gen has massive potential, but where it's being used for simulation and realism there is a problem IMHO - realism itself is no guarantee of drama: after all real life probably doesn't work this way.
That raises a whole interesting question: surely in the real world everything is procedurally generated? The universe by the action of the effect of simple "laws of physics" (whatever they mean), life by genetic instructions.
That's what makes the Elite universe feel more real than a scripted one: pg holds the promise of unexpected results ("edible poets") in the same way that physical laws throw up unexpected results (black holes, quantum foam, tachyons).
Of course mimicking the level of detail in the real universe is another challenge... (but there are fractals for that)
Although I can see where Space Pirate and others are coming from. This needs to be a sales pitch as well as defining gane attributes. i.e Procedural Generation.
All I can say is if thats the universe we're going to get to fly round......
The whole concept looks stunning and being able to fly into a planets atmosphere and have that view out of your ship.
All I can say is
if thats the universe we're going to get to fly round......The whole concept looks stunning and being able to fly into a planets atmosphere and have that view out of your ship.
But that's fine ... It's going to get very boring, very quickly if you can break the game down to:
1. Buy stuff
2. Enter hyperspace
3. Fight something
4. Dock
5. Sell stuff
6. Back to step 1
That was the original Elite, groundbreaking as it was - it wouldn't do in 2012. If you're guaranteed to get attacked every mission, you're expecting it for starters, and then it feels scripted. Space is big and getting attacked should only be a part of what might happen (with the chances getting higher in different situations ie, busier trade routes with less police protection).
What if I want to be able to switch out a couple of missiles or detach my lasers to squeeze in an extra 5t of cargo for something I know *should* be safe? Then I have to run like hell when I do have that chance encounter?
The next thing to avoid is too much 'levelling' the enemy ships to yours. Since here, the player won't be the centre of the universe, I should expect everything else in it (AI included) to be going about its own business. It would come down to 'encounters' in space, which would play out differently depending on:
1. What have you encountered - what are its broad goals?
This comes down to whether you encountered a career pirate, trader, miner etc. They'd all have different basic (but interchangeable) behaviors. A pirate desires to take cargo from other ships, a trader desires to move cargo from point to point, a miner desires to find asteroids or salvage. There might be other types too such as a bounty hunter, like a pirate but that only attacks criminals. Step 1 determines what choices it faces when it meets your ship.
2. What are it's immediate goals?
This is all about what it wants to do right now. We know it's a pirate, for instance - but perhaps its all pirated out and has no cargo space left? Why would it risk an attack? Perhaps its heavily damaged? On the other hand, maybe its brand new, fresh out of space dock and looking for something to steal.
3. What does it think about the encounter?
So by now, we've established that we've encountered a pirate ship, that its empty, in a good state of repair, and it wants to find cargo to steal. It encounters you. Is it a guaranteed fight? No. What does it think about you in relation to achieving its goals? Are you stronger than it? A more skilled (elite rating) pilot? Are you in a group? Is he? Are the police likely to intervene here? Does he have a cargo scanner? Are you carrying any cargo? Is it valuable? etc etc etc.
So there's ample scope for encountering the wrong people, but at the right time, and since you have own choices to make - you might both choose to fight, to run, or one chases the other, etc - keeps it different.
And then throw in other encounters like asteroid fields and the like. It's possible that you might get attacked by a mining ship if it decides you're stealing what it thinks is his (a nearby asteroid), or a trader if it happens to think you're weak, it can get away with it, or its just had a few bad missions and is losing money, etc etc.
Oi!
Speak for yourself!!!
...says the person who's real life is:
1. Wake up.
2. Goto work.
3. Go home.
4. Sleep.
Yes, and we play games to entertain, to get us out of that real life cycle you just described.
So for me at least, I want my games to allow me to do things I can't normally do (fly spaceships) and to have a little bit of variation about them in what I can choose to do, how I choose to do it, and what happens when I do or do not do certain things.
If I could guarantee that every trading run I was going to get attacked and what by, and when, wheres the interest? I'd rather the game keep me guessing a little bit - but in an informed way. So if I go someplace dangerous, I *presume* I know what's going to happen, but it may, or it may not.
So for me at least, I want my games to allow me to do things I can't normally do (fly spaceships) and to have a little bit of variation about them in what I can choose to do, how I choose to do it, and what happens when I do or do not do certain things.
If I could guarantee that every trading run I was going to get attacked and what by, and when, wheres the interest? I'd rather the game keep me guessing a little bit - but in an informed way. So if I go someplace dangerous, I *presume* I know what's going to happen, but it may, or it may not.
Well I am looking forward to seening some alien habitats and Iam hopeing we also a good range of alien ainmals and planets on the planets.
I agree with that. One thing I would say is in Frontier, there were certain systems where you always felt entirely safe, notably Sol and Barnard's Star. It would be good to have the odd attack happen in those systems. Following on from that, it would be good to have more police patrols in deep space, so that 'someone help me' actually does something...
A Day In The Life
I would only add to that..
1. Wake Up
2. Check The Net For News About Elite
3. Go To Work
4. Think About Elite All Day
5. Go Home
6. Check The Net For News About Elite
7. Sleep
8. Dream About Elite
9. *Out Of Cheese Error* Re-do From Start
I would only add to that..
1. Wake Up
2. Check The Net For News About Elite
3. Go To Work
4. Think About Elite All Day
5. Go Home
6. Check The Net For News About Elite
7. Sleep
8. Dream About Elite
9. *Out Of Cheese Error* Re-do From Start