The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[WlLL0W]

having observed two groups arguing with each other on this forum, with tales of people getting blown up just for associating with members of one of the groups,

i'm not a fan of the idea at all.

the idea of people saying not to go into systems owned by groups is also offensive to me as well.

it would ruin the game imo.

whenever you have groups, you get rivalry.
where you have rivalry you get row's
then you get people being at war with each other
and that makes the game unnatractive for anyone who isnt involved with the groups.

side with us or die!!

nah.

 

[Robert Maynard]

EvE online has over 5,000,000 Players world wide, and over 50k-100k logged in at any given moment.

....

ED has 5k players, maybe 10k players. (According to steam right now only 2k are logged in and only 4k have played it this week) Well say 15k total players to be fair and count those that don't use steam.

From steamcharts, just now:



We know that not all E: D players use steam - presumably most EvE players don't either?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Well, that is actually untrue.

ED does have community support for player groups. Those can have "their own" minor faction, can have custom tailored CGs, and can have a shot at the ascension to become a power. While they aren't really ingame features for player group only, they are definitely features that support player groups.
ED doesn't have guilds. But minor factions. And powers.

While the game itself has limited social features connected to powers or minor factions, and missing an organization level between wings and minor factions (which would be a "guild"), it has mass coop play and large amounts of company support from the Frontier team for player groups.

For me personally allowing guilds is a logical step sooner or later. Offering player groups community goals, own minor factions, their "own" power ... but no chat or member management seems... strange.

The term used when referring to how player groups will be able to influence Minor Factions is "sponsor", i.e. not control. Does that make it a guild? .... or does it make it a lot like PowerPlay on a much smaller scale?

 

[_Flin_]

Your 'logical' conclusion is only logical to someone who already has the point of view that you have. I don't share your opinion, so it is not to me (and many others) the logical deduction you claim it to be. It us not a fait accompli that Elite must follow the Eve path despite what you believe.

You can either allow content creation from the players (which FD does by offering unique ways of influencing the game to player groups)... or you can all code it and write it for yourself.

While the approach of Frontier is great, I'd be even happier for some more possibilities to influence the game on a group level by automated means, and not only by hand crafted ones.

ED is a sandbox, as is EVE. ED has 400 billion stars, plus - with Horizons - the ability to land on i-don't-know-how-many rocky, icy or metallic planets.
The playing field is HUGE. There are, however, some things missing on it, as everyone will admit. And you can add these missing things by allowing players and player groups to enrich content-lacking areas with content of their own.

 

[Druid]

Guilds are player controlled, powerplay and player factions (which are just faction names/locations/allegiance proposed by a player) are player supported. That may seem like semantics but it is a very important difference.



I think you have totally missed what this game is, there is a reason a Solo mode exists and is so popular.



You are implying that traditional MMOs have depth, this isn't anything I have experienced. They have a lot of tedium and text and "story", but not depth, nor do they possess the potential for it really.

Nope I am implying that MMo's come in all shapes and forms and are not restricted to WOW SWTOR . I hate traditional MMo's it's the same old rubbish implimented by lazy money grabbing companies who rely on a formular. That is not to say a clever company cant re write what most people see as an MMo . Asuming an MMo must conform to the WOW ethos is just silly. WOW re wrote the book on online gaming and it suited a lot of mainstream folks who never even imagined playing a game online .

Ive been playing online since the early 1990's and what I like is free form open world enviroments where I can choose to participate or not in various activities offered to me . I hate to keep going on about Jumpgate but that game was so damn close to being an open world MMo . Many who play here played Jumpgate and we are used to creating our own content with tools offered to us without strict rules . MMo's need to evolve and think outside the box .

 

[Theodrid]

Can I just ask where the hell this 5,000,000 number is coming from in reference to EvE?

 

[Malpherian]

It has ceased to surprise me that players who want Guild features to be introduced into a game (whose CEO clearly has some reservations about the ways that Guilds can adversely influence players experience of the game) that does not have them nor are they on the list for implementation then assumes that they will be introduced into the only Open access game mode and that anyone who doesn't like that can toddle off to Solo....

Not at all, if a person doesn't want to join a guild they don't have to as I stated in an earlier post Guild influences would obviously not effect the 100K+ Core systems as these should not be allowed for player control, etc. So you can play open all you like and only participate in that which you desire. The SOLO thing was for people who want to avoid emergent game-play, created, by other players. Which if your playing in Open your obviously interested in this anyway, so your point is irrelevant (no offense).

And actually it was stated in an interview that Corps/Guilds/whatever would indeed be a thing in ED. There's actually a link to the Video here on the forums somewhere.

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Can I just ask where the hell this 5,000,000 number is coming from in reference to EvE?

CCP's last quarter update on their company and subscriptions. It's not exactly 5 mil, I rounded up but it's close, like 4,876,599 or something.

 

[Malpherian]

So, quite apart from your odd use of colour, on the one hand you say you don't want to change the game, but on the other you want to open it up along Eve lines - which will actually fundamentally change the game if you take it down the Eve path! Interesting......
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It's cliched, but if Eve has so much going for it, go play that instead of trying turn Elite: Dangerous into something it's not and was never intended to be - that Eve clone you and others seem so intent it should be.
.
And 5,000,000 players or not, it is still a specific demographic, ie players who wish to play in that cutthroat environment. By demographic I was obviously referring to the type of player that enjoys that environment - size of the playerbase makes no difference in that. Those who don't either avoid it to begin with, or leave (eg because they find the atmosphere toxic). That emergent content you seem so fond of suits the demographic of players who play Eve - it does not automatically follow that it is good gameplay for everyone else, irrespective of what you believe or how hard you push it.
.
You and others would seemingly rather turn Elite into an Eve clone that will benefit, primarily, that same demographic. How about some diversity, like letting Frontier follow a different path? How about letting those players who don't want the Eve style of game have their game here? No, your solution, instead of adapting your own playstyle to suit Elite, is to insist that Frontier changes the design to suit you and if the rest of us don't like it we can go to solo. And when people like me oppose that approach, the usual response is to ask what we're afraid of. Sorry, but I don't buy that and will oppose that at every opportunity.
.
Your 'logical' conclusion is only logical to someone who already has the point of view that you have. I don't share your opinion, so it is not to me (and many others) the logical deduction you claim it to be. It is not a fait accompli that Elite must follow the Eve path despite what you believe.

It won't change the game at all, it'll just make use of 400+ billion star systems that would otherwise stay pointless and empty. You can't really change something the isn't being used.... Like I said earlier (may have been another thread), there's only 1 direction FD can go, the vastness of the game is a dead giveaway if they seriously intend on actually living up to their 10 year plan, they have to allow player emergent game play. It would take them 1000 years or more (Millions of years probably) to actually do something with 400 billion systems otherwise.

And I'm sorry but I can't believe that FD's intention is to simply leave the game 99.9% vast and empty. It's not a financially smart idea, and creating such would have been pointless in that case when it could have been done on a much smaller scale if that was really the intention. Even 1 Million systems would take decades to explore. But 400 Billion? No, theres only one way FD can go with this.

You do not seem to understand the concept of using a good idea while creating something different. No one is suggesting an EvE clone. What we are suggesting is that FD learn From CCP's success. And implement some of the same "Strategies" for content.

This game will be FAR different then EvE and FAR larger once finished if I am correct. But it will have a lot in common as well.

 

[Theodrid]

CCP's last quarter update on their company and subscriptions. It's not exactly 5 mil, I rounded up but it's close, like 4,876,599 or something.

Have you got a link handy for that if possible please?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Not at all, if a person doesn't want to join a guild they don't have to as I stated in an earlier post Guild influences would obviously not effect the 100K+ Core systems as these should not be allowed for player control, etc. So you can play open all you like and only participate in that which you desire. The SOLO thing was for people who want to avoid emergent game-play, created, by other players. Which if your playing in Open your obviously interested in this anyway, so your point is irrelevant (no offense).

And actually it was stated in an interview that Corps/Guilds/whatever would indeed be a thing in ED. There's actually a link to the Video here on the forums somewhere.

If it's the video I think you mean, it's the same one where I have formed the opinion that DBOBE is not in favour of player groups much larger than Wings - although it does say that Frontier are looking at it at the end of that segment. Wanting to play in Open is not the same as wanting to be subjected to the whims of large organised groups of other players - Open is the only mode in which one will meet strangers and Wings are the largest player group supported by the game.

 

[Malpherian]

From steamcharts, just now:

View attachment 54666

We know that not all E: D players use steam - presumably most EvE players don't either?

99.9% of EvE players did not download it from steam and do not have it on steam. Since the download is free from their website. and you get better updates with less hassle using the EvE launcher rather then the steam one.

While yes some ED players do not have it on steam, most do (About 60%-70% from what I can tell from the sells charts, say it was purchased on steam). At least the ones I have access to.

In either case my 4k-5k estimate was correct judging by what you posted where activity levels are concerned.

FYI the EvE launcher actually tells you how many people are currently logged on and in game.

- - - Updated - - -

Have you got a link handy for that if possible please?

Unless you have access to the SomethingAweful Forums and CQC you wont be able to see it, it was posted by one of the Goon-swarm members on the forums (He sits on the CSM "Council of Stellar Managment").

 

[smiths121]

I only use solo mode to look up influence levels and states of factions for systems I am interested in, when I am in a medium landing pad ship at an outpost. Open the rest of the time.
Why should I lose out on the player interaction in open (whether combat, sledging, or co-operation) and use solo? Solo is not the game I want to play. I do NOT want to play in SOLO, it is less than the game I have now.

As I said in my original post - rather badly. I am not opposed to organised groups, they already exist in the game, and I want improved comms for the various levels of organised group. By organised group, I mean everything from a few players getting together to flip their chosen home world to much larger groups such as Emperor's Grace, or players pledged to a power.

The difference between an organised group and a guild, at least in my opinion is ownership, access and control. Powerplay avoids these as players are supporting an NPC, cannot control who has access to information or pledges, and cannot directly control anything. Guilds in other games can be very positive things, LOtR on-line forming quest parties for newer players, and the bigger groups already do this in ED.

When ownership, access and control are added, this is when not being part of a guild become a hinderance, and you end up with the unacceptable situation of only having solo as an option.

I generally hope FD can find a middle ground, without anyone having to resort to solo or leave the game. I accept I am very black and white about this, had a great time playing ED but if it becomes something I do not enjoy then I would be mad to keep playing.

Simon

Like I said earlier even if it does go in the EvE direction you have SOLO mode, in which case it will STILL be the game you want/ Neither one of us will leave. We'll simply play in different arenas. Me in Open you in SOlO.

 

[Malpherian]

If it's the video I think you mean, it's the same one where I have formed the opinion that DBOBE is not in favour of player groups much larger than Wings - although it does say that Frontier are looking at it at the end of that segment. Wanting to play in Open is not the same as wanting to be subjected to the whims of large organised groups of other players - Open is the only mode in which one will meet strangers and Wings are the largest player group supported by the game.

You can make a group from the log in screen. Pretty sure it does not have a limit. (Might be wrong haven't really tested it). Wings are the open Mode Co Op, but you can have up to 32 people at once in your sphere in Open mode. (From what I have read in the notes). Not sure what the big deal is about corps or guilds anyway, all they will do is improve the game. You can always section areas off where their "Influence" can not be spread. EvE does it, shouldn't be that difficult for ED.

- - - Updated - - -

I only use solo mode to look up influence levels and states of factions for systems I am interested in, when I am in a medium landing pad ship at an outpost. Open the rest of the time.
Why should I lose out on the player interaction in open (whether combat, sledging, or co-operation) and use solo? Solo is not the game I want to play. I do NOT want to play in SOLO, it is less than the game I have now.

As I said in my original post - rather badly. I am not opposed to organised groups, they already exist in the game, and I want improved comms for the various levels of organised group. By organised group, I mean everything from a few players getting together to flip their chosen home world to much larger groups such as Emperor's Grace, or players pledged to a power.

The difference between an organised group and a guild, at least in my opinion is ownership, access and control. Powerplay avoids these as players are supporting an NPC, cannot control who has access to information or pledges, and cannot directly control anything. Guilds in other games can be very positive things, LOtR on-line forming quest parties for newer players, and the bigger groups already do this in ED.

When ownership, access and control are added, this is when not being part of a guild become a hinderance, and you end up with the unacceptable situation of only having solo as an option.

I generally hope FD can find a middle ground, without anyone having to resort to solo or leave the game. I accept I am very black and white about this, had a great time playing ED but if it becomes something I do not enjoy then I would be mad to keep playing.

Simon

Player interaction now (in ED) is the same as it is in EvE, Actually.. it's more dangerous there's no Highsec in ED, and no safe zones, I'm not sure what your point is, if your fine with player interaction.... ? Anyone can shoot you at any time they want currently. Nothing changes with my suggestions. The game just gets more content....

And if being shot was not your complaint, please clarify exactly what your issue with my suggestion is.


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On access and control... There's 400 Billion systems... Seriously doubt you'll run into a real issue trying to get somewhere.... Especially since Guilds should not be able to control core systems (the 100k system bubble around the starter and NPC areas).

Guilds will control the systems in the "Neutral zones" outside this bubble. Much like Nullsec in EvE. You can still go exploring, but like any system currently in open mode you may get shot. Nothing changes here either as this is the case now anyway.

So again... Still not really changing anything game wise. Just adding content.


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Emphasis on the number 400 Billion needs to be placed here as I sincerely think the mods and some of you all resisting this idea honestly haven't really a clue how many systems that really is, and how impossible it would be for a guild to control even a fraction of that.

Let me break it down for you,

The planet earth has about "9" billion people on it, counting every man woman and child. Only about 25k max of those plays ED. it would take over 35 Billion Clones of the planet earth with people playing ED simultaneously..... TO even put a dent in the games system mass.

So stop worrying, the game is far too vast for this to EVER be an issue. (Which is the point) Wink, Wink. "At the Devs". Yea that's right, I got that. It's the only reason you'd make the game this damn big, SO big that no matter how many guilds or corps or groups own power they can never be anything other then an insignificant dust ball compared to the whole of the Game itself.

Lets go big for a sec, EVEN IF every man woman and child on the planet all 9 billion joined the same Guild..... That guild would only control about 3%-6% of the Games systems.

I mean really.....

Now please, tell me again how guilds controlling everything would be an issue.. I want you to. Because now everyone knows, that's a load of crock.

 

[Robert Maynard]

You can make a group from the log in screen. Pretty sure it does not have a limit. (Might be wrong haven't really tested it). Wings are the open Mode Co Op, but you can have up to 32 people at once in your sphere in Open mode. (From what I have read in the notes). Not sure what the big deal is about corps or guilds anyway, all they will do is improve the game.

You can make/manage a Private Group in the launcher - that does not change anything in Open play. No limit has been found yet - Mobius' PvE Private Group is at nearly 11,000 members.

Some players backed the game specifically because the multi-player modes do not have Guilds / Corporations / Clans / etc. - not everyone would seem to agree with your opinion that "all they will do is improve the game".

 

[Julissa Silver]

CCP's last quarter update on their company and subscriptions. It's not exactly 5 mil, I rounded up but it's close, like 4,876,599 or something.

You're about 4.5 MILLION too high. Last number found was approximately 380k active accounts, down 125-150k from it's height in 2013 of 500,000 players.

For reference, they no longer release stats on active accounts, so anything anybody can post is conjecture at best.
Have a vague link for reference.

 

[jabokai]

So again... Still not really changing anything game wise. Just adding content.

So a guild decides it owns a nice safe (in background sim terms) system that I want to trade in, but it's not actually safe because they're a bunch of idiots who just want to zerg anyone who enters "their" space - that changes nothing, game wise? And that is what you call content? Weird.

 

[Malpherian]

So a guild decides it owns a nice safe (in background sim terms) system that I want to trade in, but it's not actually safe because they're a bunch of idiots who just want to zerg anyone who enters "their" space - that changes nothing, game wise? And that is what you call content? Weird.

Most likely you wouldn't be trading in a guild owned system. Have you ever been out of the Bubble of populated areas? there's no stations to trade at, and anything built by guilds would probably be set to private or guild only. Especially since there is no player economy, if they add one then sure, I am positive Guilds/Corps would open their stations up for trading, even add a political game in there for standings and rep with said guild. Lots of content to be had there, especially if the guild owns a nice resource rich special resource planet or something, I don't know, tons of stuff you can do with it though.

Especially if they add crafting.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Especially if they add crafting.

We expect the "Loot and Crafting" update as part of Season 2 to be released in 2016 - no real detail yet though.

 

[jabokai]

Most likely you wouldn't be trading in a guild owned system. Have you ever been out of the Bubble of populated areas? there's no stations to trade at, and anything built by guilds would probably be set to private or guild only.

Private? Guild only? How did this fit into an open galaxy? So I can earn permits for background sim restricted systems but guilds could lock me out of others, on a whim? Still not seeing "content" and your statement of it changing nothing, game wise, is still a load of old tosh when it quite clearly would.

 

[Stigbob]

You're about 4.5 MILLION too high. Last number found was approximately 380k active accounts, down 125-150k from it's height in 2013 of 500,000 players.

For reference, they no longer release stats on active accounts, so anything anybody can post is conjecture at best.
Have a vague link for reference.

EVE dev's used to regularly beat their chest and bellow that their subscriber numbers were massive and increasing. They stopped publishing numbers in 2012 (or around there), given that they always used the numbers to demonstrate their superiority their current and recent silence could be interpreted* as concealing a decline.

*warning this is opinion based conjecture and should not be used as the basis for a new religion