The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[jabokai]

Just to add - please consider all of the forum themes when picking colours for your posts - they are rather painful to read on a pale background.

I like when he posts in light colours - means I can skip that part as clearly it's unimportant as it's been faded out by the author himself.

 

[Stigbob]

If it's a guild system that would really depend on the guild and it's policies. Some I'm sure would shoot you others I really don't think would care. Docking rights may be given or denied inthesame manner entirely dependent on the rp of the owning guild.

But in either case it would be far more interesting then an empty dead system.

So blaze your own trail becomes blaze your own limited trail in systems you have been allowed access to by groups of players.

No thanks, sounds too much like EVE for my tastes.

 

[Herik]

How would your proposed guild react to clean independent pilots passing through their territory. Here's some examples of whats not acceptable :

Shoot on sight
Told to leave
Deny docking permission
Refused access to trade
Refused access to repair/refuel/reload
Forced recruitment
Demands for tribute

TL : DR we don't want to see big signs with "no gurls aloud" on them

Thanks, that's direct and factual; most of the general Open play population don't want that...+1

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So blaze your own trail becomes blaze your own limited trail in systems you have been allowed access to by groups of players.

No thanks, sounds too much like EVE for my tastes.

Yup, Eve we go again...

 

[Calebe]

My issues with guilds. They make demands on guild members to be at certain places at certain times. They start to ask for something to work on as a group. The max number allowed in an instance, and then ask for content to hard but for that number of players. Then the inevitable, well we are doing this and it is fun but how about some reward for the hard work to beat this harder content. So they ask for equipment no one else can get but those that can maximize and instance, work as a group and gain it. Then when on their own no one can touch their ships as no one else but guilds can get that gear.
.
The great divide between the guilds and non guilds. Better equipment, for them, and they can then threaten to de-guild those that don't along with the guild leadership. I have seen it happen time and again. Why I am against guilds.
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Calebe

 

[Malpherian]

Poppycock - it will change the game fudamentally from that which most of us backed.

I'll give you a clue sport - space IS 99.9% empty (as far as human occupation goes). And still will be by the time we get to the time period the game is set in (ok, it might only be 99% at that time then). Space is empty - exactly what Frontier was aiming for I'd wager. Doesn't mean Frontier (or we) have to fill it with Eve style content.

And for the record I understand very well the notion of using a good idea to improve the game - it's that I don't agree that following Eve's example is a good idea. Nor do a lot of other backers, and up to this point at least, nor do Frontier. You say you don't want to turn it into Eve yet want Frontier to use the SAME strategies CCP use? And that won't result in an Eve clone? Give me break.......

If you actually want the game to last 10 years you'll need a lot more then empty space.

Realistic or not it's a game and I'd rather have a game with content then an rl space simulator with nothing in it.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

How free is a Power to relocate? Can Powers control access to their stations?

Guild bank? Guild communications?

I never said I wanted player owned stations. As mentioned, I'm just here for the guilds buddy. Guild bank would be a problem if they did that before they implemented player to player trading. And a guild bank would be the least of what people would be interested in, they'll want Guild hangars where they can leave ships for people to use and borrow. Imagine having 15 decently fitted Cobras sitting in the Guild hangar for new players to borrow for a week to get started and learn the game. With an appropriate insurance purse of course.

Players would create guilds explicitly for trading purposes. Communications would be nice but let's be honest, everyone is going to use TeamSpeak until FD figures out what communications is.

Only FD knows how free a power is to relocate at the moment. I'm pretty interested in it myself, I wonder if players could shuffle from one side to the other given the appropriate time and effort, say if they decided things were prettier over by Lave.

 

[Digestia]

At this point, I'll take anything that breathes life into this empty void of a game we currently have. A lot of people need more than progress bars and numbers to keep them invested (as in a sense of community and contribution towards something).

 

[mixmm]

Wish I was able to vote No. If you want to own something buy a ship or a fleet if you so desire, the game is changing, due to the change in demographic, we now have a lot of players who are used to owning things. What next buying things? Why not change the name and call it "Evlite"!

People who look for depth do a community goal, not for credits but to be part of the community, see the thread, or the game is just a grind for credits.

 

[Herik]

Take a step back for a moment. A lot of what you're suggesting is what took EvE Online (as the best example I can think of) many years to develop. Elite already has the next few years sewn up as far as planned development goes, so there isn't really much scope to develop all these gameplay options.

Similarly, EvE never really got very far with it's whole getting out of your ship thing, and even less far with landing on planets (which was one of it's goals way, way back). Point is, regardless of how great all this stuff might be, there just isn't any practical way it can all be added in one game and certainly not on the game-defining scale you appear to be asking for.

Give Elite another few years worth of expansions and it'll be in a state where it's own, unique emergent gameplay will suggest itself. The game is only 9 months out of the gate and it there's only a tiny amount of the planned gameplay available to us. My feeling is that once we've got the full range of planetary landings, can walk around in our ships and on stations while engaging in the gameplay that FD wants to introduce to make these things matter, all your ideas (as great as they are in other games) will be pretty much redundant here.

At that point, completely new and original potentials will present themselves. This is a good thing, no? We all want new and original stuff in gaming, amirite?

Most want this Gibbonici; but some (only) want in depth control of Open play over vast swaths of the (most active) game space. And this should be parsed out carefully, so Open players can play the game as they want.

 

[Malpherian]

My issues with guilds. They make demands on guild members to be at certain places at certain times. They start to ask for something to work on as a group. The max number allowed in an instance, and then ask for content to hard but for that number of players. Then the inevitable, well we are doing this and it is fun but how about some reward for the hard work to beat this harder content. So they ask for equipment no one else can get but those that can maximize and instance, work as a group and gain it. Then when on their own no one can touch their ships as no one else but guilds can get that gear.
.
The great divide between the guilds and non guilds. Better equipment, for them, and they can then threaten to de-guild those that don't along with the guild leadership. I have seen it happen time and again. Why I am against guilds.
.
Calebe

What you've listed here. Is not a guild problem it's a problem with how the guild is ran. Not all guild's are hardcore most in fact are pretty casual.

 

[Herik]

And the sentence that is missing from the end of that statement is

"Therefore, it would harm nothing at all if the players were given tools to make player organization in Open easier, so that they can spend more of their time playing the game and less worrying about how to keep track of Brian and get him involved with the rest of your pals, since he's having a hard time of it."

This is exactly my point. The great evil that people are so adamantly against and swear will destroy all of ED forever and always is already in the game, just half-arsedly. It's not a big deal to ask FD to do it again but get it right this time.

Edit: Oh, btw, I don't put any stock in player owned territory. I'm just here for the guilds.

Players can claim territory, but I prefer for their claim to remain "dark". Those bubbles on the map have an odd psychological influence on the uninitiated. Much better if the people willing to claim territory have to put in all of the necessary work to make sure people understand it's theirs, anything else is just lazy.

And not to use your words, this mechanism should remain some what flawed and very hard to achieve; thus I'm against guilds.

 

[Chris Majere]

And that won't result in an Eve clone? .......

ED CANNOT become an Eve clone. Not with 400 billion star systems, solo play, no possibility of having ALT characters, no free intel on player activity like Eve has, no player locator agents, no 2000 players in the same instance (with the heavy lag that comes with it), no gates, no warp bubbles, no cloacky campers, no RMT empires, no Goons, no Pandemic Legions...etc.... For my part, I dont want EVERYTHING that Eve has. I'm sure most people here that want guilds dont want an Eve clone.

Like I said in another thread, have confidence in the devs implementing this. If this is done well, it could make this game incredibly more interesting then it currently is.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

And not to use your words, this mechanism should remain some what flawed and very hard to achieve; thus I'm against guilds.

I would like you to read over what you just said and ask yourself: Why?

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What you've listed here. Is not a guild problem it's a problem with how the guild is ran. Not all guild's are hardcore most in fact are pretty casual.

So true. Don't confuse people problems with guild problems. If you don't want a structured guild with goals, don't join a structured guild with goals. That's all there is to it, and it doesn't get any simpler or easier to achieve than clicking "No." on an invite.

 

[JosiahD]

ED CANNOT become an Eve clone. Not with 400 billion star systems, solo play, no possibility of having ALT characters, no free intel on player activity like Eve has, no player locator agents, no 2000 players in the same instance (with the heavy lag that comes with it), no gates, no warp bubbles, no cloacky campers, no RMT empires, no Goons, no Pandemic Legions...etc.... For my part, I dont want EVERYTHING that Eve has. I'm sure most people here that want guilds dont want an Eve clone.

Like I said in another thread, have confidence in the devs implementing this. If this is done well, it could make this game incredibly more interesting then it currently is.

Are these not amongst the 'strategies' used by CCP though that Malpherian would like to see Frontier use? So if Frontier adopted the SAME strategies used by CCP, which presumably include the things you list, we would indeed end up with an Eve clone would we not?

But as I've said on previous occasions way back, the basic concept of guilds is not bad - it's the implementation that creates problems. I don't want to see it go down the Eve path, but avoid guild 'owership' of assets and territory and I'd be open to it. Problem is that once you let the genie out of the bottle neither you nor Frontier can guarantee it won't go down that unwanted path. And once we go down that path of territory control, as I've suggested before, the next casualty will be mode switching because it would be seen as damaging to guild play. And once we've done all that the game has indeed been fundamentally changed for everyone not interested in guild play.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Are these not amongst the 'strategies' used by CCP though that Malpherian would like to see Frontier use? So if Frontier adopted the SAME strategies used by CCP, which presumably include the things you list, we would indeed end up with an Eve clone would we not?

But as I've said on previous occasions way back, the basic concept of guilds is not bad - it's the implementation that creates problems. I don't want to see it go down the Eve path, but avoid guild 'owership' of assets and territory and I'd be open to it. Problem is that once you let the genie out of the bottle neither you nor Frontier can guarantee it won't go down that unwanted path. And once we go down that path of territory control, as I've suggested before, the next casualty will be mode switching because it would be seen as damaging to guild play. And once we've done all that the game has indeed been fundamentally changed for everyone not interested in guild play.

Assets is fine, and I wouldn't have a problem with territory if it wasn't so pointless. Owning territory just means that the majority of groups would spread to the furthest corners of the galaxy where they are least likely to be infringed upon and expand from there, which would add absolutely nothing to the gameplay and dilute the community to nothing, resulting in a wasteland of content instead of creating it. Guild assets is a very beneficial gameplay addition.

Assets would be like... Community Goals.... Only Fun.

 

[Robert Maynard]

What you've listed here. Is not a guild problem it's a problem with how the guild is ran. Not all guild's are hardcore most in fact are pretty casual.

.... there's no guarantee that problem Guilds won't appear in-game - by then, it's far too late.

 

[Witcherman]

I'd vote in favor of both guilds and player owned bases, anything to help make this galaxy feel more alive.

 

[Malpherian]

.... there's no guarantee that problem Guilds won't appear in-game - by then, it's far too late.

Its already far too late because group's are in game. And even without in game support structures for guilds once the pop rises and real communities start playing your going to have to deal with the "bad apples " anyway.

Let me get Goonswarm from EvE down here and have 10k people boycott. One of the pp Hq systems for 3 months and stop all player activity in those systems. (In open mode). And no that's not an exaggeration. We boycotted the entirety of galente space for 6 months in EvE. And that's over 7000 systems that if you entered you died.

It was a community that did that NOT a guild.

No guild function required.

So again guilds are not the issue. People are the issue. And there isn't. A Damn thing anyone can do to change whether a group of people choose to dciks or not.

Blameing it on a game function is assinine.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Its already far too late because group's are in game. And even without in game support structures for guilds once the pop rises and real communities. Start playing your going to have to deal with the "bad apples " anyway.

Let me get Goonswarm from EvE down here and have 10k people boycott. One of the pp Hq systems for 3 months and stop all player activity in those systems.

No guild function required.

So again guilds are not the issue. People are the issue. And there isn't. A Damn thing anyone can do to change whether a group of people choose to dciks or not.

Blameing it on a game function is assinine.

There's a difference between what out-of-game (OOG) player groups choose to do using OOG tools to communicate and Frontier actively facilitating such play in-game.

Your blockade example only works in Open - it does not affect anyone who chooses not to let it affect them.

I agree, no Guild functions are required.

Again, I agree - people are indeed the issue and facilitating people to form into tribes will usually lead to conflict.

Not introducing in-game functionality that would facilitate such behaviours would seem to be anything but asinine....

 

[Malpherian]

Its already far too late because group's are in game. And even without in game support structures for guilds once the pop rises and real communities start playing your going to have to deal with the "bad apples " anyway.

Let me get Goonswarm from EvE down here and have 10k people boycott. One of the pp Hq systems for 3 months and stop all player activity in those systems. (In open mode). And no that's not an exaggeration. We boycotted the entirety of galente space for 6 months in EvE. And that's over 7000 systems that if you entered you died.

It was a community that did that NOT a guild.

No guild function required.

So again guilds are not the issue. People are the issue. And there isn't. A Damn thing anyone can do to change whether a group of people choose to dciks or not.

Blameing it on a game function is assinine.

There's a difference between what out-of-game (OOG) player groups choose to do using OOG tools to communicate and Frontier actively facilitating such play in-game.

Your blockade example only works in Open - it does not affect anyone who chooses not to let it affect them.

I agree, no Guild functions are required.

Again, I agree - people are indeed the issue and facilitating people to form into tribes will usually lead to conflict.

Not introducing in-game functionality that would facilitate such behaviours would seem to be anything but asinine....

It also facilitates positive groups as well as rp content among other player made content. And faster response times to combat the negative groups.

So yes it would definitely be assinine to not include a function simply because a few of them might be fraks.

That's like saying you shouldn't leave the station in open mode because a player might shoot you.

The positives of having guilds far out ways any possible negative side effects.

Its why every single "successful" MMO have them.