The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[Robert Maynard]

No the one with links to thosee blogs or whatever they were you linked earlier before the thread turned into the Pro Guild Anti Guild debate .

This thread has always been an Pro/Anti Guild debate - maybe you're thinking of another thread, or possibly another poster?

 

[Malpherian]

Quite a sales pitch, but I'll stick with Elite thanks. I had a short stint in Eve. I was unhappy with the game. I'm certain a Corp wouldn't change my opinion of that. Thanks for the invite. I can't help it. It may be a weakness, but I am totally repulsed by the determined comparisons to Eve. My hope is that FD stays with the path they are on, and not follow a game that is already out there.

EvE has flaws, some of them major. It can't fix them this late into it's cycle.

ED can be developed without them. Just saying.

As far as ED's direction... None of us even know what that is literally.... For all we know Dave could be sipping his mug of hot chocolate, and looking at sales numbers or pop numbers or whatever and making severe changes to improve such (or decrease such) depending on his mood that day..... Who knows. FD is very tight lipped about everything even our friendly Mod here (Who you all should thank for actually interacting with the community, as most, in most games, don't.. (EvE being the other exception). Has said he doesn't know what's in the works for sure.

 

[Robert Maynard]

ED's foreseeable future is about 1 year maybe 2... So maybe not so far away. Like I said we don;t even know what is in Horizon besides Planitary landings, Player owned bases, and Crafting, and hints at large player group oriented stuff.

So I mean really anything could happen in the next 2 years or 3.

Horizons is Season 2 - that takes us to the end of 2016. Season 3 may well be further development of planetary landings (with atmospheres?) - that takes us to the end of 2017. I don't expect that planetary landings will necessarily be completed in two seasons and with the "leaving the pilot's seat" expansion still to come, that could well take us up to the end of 2019 before there might be development time available to look at other features.

 

[jabokai]

I have only seen a few posters state that "(it doesn't fit in elite)" in 100+ pages, sure they have repeated themselves on occasion but there you go. And since PP introduced NPC "Guilds" and factions were already in Game, that "Does not fit" is getting very very slim.

PP comprises political factions, not "NPC guilds". And, by their definition, they are not player controlled. Personally I don't think PP is well implemented but when they let player groups participate (rather than control) in that part of the game then the case for guilds is closed, hopefully.

ED's foreseeable future is about 1 year maybe 2... So maybe not so far away. Like I said we don;t even know what is in Horizon besides Planitary landings, Player owned bases, and Crafting, and hints at large player group oriented stuff.

So I mean really anything could happen in the next 2 years or 3.

You keep saying that player owned bases are "in development" and coming with Horizons - has that been said? Not saying you're wrong but I've just not seen that stated anywhere.

Also, there are no "hints at large player group oriented stuff" as they've pretty much detailed their plans there from what I've seen - player groups will be able to boost minor factions to powers in Powerplay.

 

[NeilF]

You keep saying that player owned bases are "in development" and coming with Horizons - has that been said? Not saying you're wrong but I've just not seen that stated anywhere.

Also, there are no "hints at large player group oriented stuff" as they've pretty much detailed their plans there from what I've seen - player groups will be able to boost minor factions to powers in Powerplay.

I've not seen anything as regards player owned bases?

If we keep in mind FD's general approach, which is nice small confined mini-games, then I would expect the bases in Horizons to surely follow suit. They will be a transient mechanic which players cannot own, and simply used as an excuse for a self contained mini-game again? ie: Maybe think a conflict zone but with some land based assets involved too. The fact FD have mentioned (some) land assets will work akin to our beloved(?) USS space mechanics makes me think again that we're basically just getting more of the same...


Player owned/run bases, along with all the supporting mechanics that would be required, would surely suggest the beginning of emergent gameplay? Something FD spoke alot about in Kickstarter, but have shown little/no interest in since. Please keep in mind the only emergent gameplay we have in ED IMHO are the FuelRats who answer calls to supply fuel via a 3rd party chat room on the web.... And in an entire ED's entire galaxy of 400 billions stars, and all its game mechanics, that's it so far...

 

[BurnyBurns]

PP comprises political factions, not "NPC guilds". And, by their definition, they are not player controlled. Personally I don't think PP is well implemented but when they let player groups participate (rather than control) in that part of the game then the case for guilds is closed, hopefully.

Only if the Pgroup/Player faction features will be well implemented. Give Pgroup players a barebone implementation that isn't even up to what such groups would expect from other games (e.g. gimp or skip communication features), and FDev won't hear the end of it. Give them too much potential influence (heh, there's one scenario I think is unlikely, given the stepmotherly treatment they've received so far) and FDev will never hear the end of it.

Then there are the people who'll adamently insists that grouping up in any way doesn't fit into Elite's legacy. IMO some pretentious reason when the actual issue is probably that they don't want to be exposed to potentially aggressive and powerful groups or have some irrational fear of being locked out of content that's designed for group play and too hard too reach for solo players.. I suspect that some of those people, if they get so much as a whiff of anything like group features having any influence in the game world, will cry foul anyway.

It's a damned if they do, damned if they don't case. But I have a feeling they'll be far more damned in the long run if they don't. The game needs more content, not less of it and that includes content for organized groups.

 

[jabokai]

The game needs more content, not less of it and that includes content for organized groups.

Despite your disparaging comments throughout your spittle-flecked post I thought I'd address that bit. It's exactly what you're getting with player sponsored Powerplay factions (that will even be nameable for big groups of people) - so you get to play your game of Risk against other "guilds" and everyone else can be relatively oblivious if they don't participate in PP.

 

[BurnyBurns]

Despite your disparaging comments throughout your spittle-flecked post I thought I'd address that bit. It's exactly what you're getting with player sponsored Powerplay factions (that will even be nameable for big groups of people) - so you get to play your game of Risk against other "guilds" and everyone else can be relatively oblivious if they don't participate in PP.

You yourself think PP isn't well implemented, yet you hope "the case for guilds" will finally be closed once Pgroups will have a larger stake in it? Would merely adding Pgroups as stakeholders make the PP implementation any better in your opionion? Maybe PGroups will not be content with their "game of risk" either, as you descibe it. I may be interpreting too much into your choice of words, but you don't sound like you think a quasi Risk is a very desirable game mechanic. I guess we'll see how it pans out once the actual feature is patched into the game.

I can get behind the idea to implement PGroups as "in-lore" factions, keeping their influence on solo players to a minimum, as they'll be perceived as "background" noise. Not to dissimilar to what I came up with, which was merged into Mk.1 of this thread.

 

[jabokai]

You yourself think PP isn't well implemented, yet you hope "the case for guilds" will finally be closed once Pgroups will have a larger stake in it? Would merely adding Pgroups as stakeholders make the PP implementation any better in your opionion? Maybe PGroups will not be content with their "game of risk" either, as you descibe it. I may be interpreting too much into your choice of words, but you don't sound like you think a quasi Risk is a very desirable game mechanic. I guess we'll see how it pans out once the actual feature is patched into the game.

I'm not interested in Powerplay at all, which is probably why I'm happy enough for the proposed guild-sponsored factions to dwell there. But while I don't like Powerplay, doesn't it satisfy what some of the guild advocates here want? Territory, expansion, inter-faction rivalry. Throw in better comms and isn't that then suitable?

 

[telperion]

I'm not interested in Powerplay at all, which is probably why I'm happy enough for the proposed guild-sponsored factions to dwell there. But while I don't like Powerplay, doesn't it satisfy what some of the guild advocates here want? Territory, expansion, inter-faction rivalry. Throw in better comms and isn't that then suitable?

Yes.... by definition.

 

[BurnyBurns]

I'm not interested in Powerplay at all, which is probably why I'm happy enough for the proposed guild-sponsored factions to dwell there. But while I don't like Powerplay, doesn't it satisfy what some of the guild advocates here want? Territory, expansion, inter-faction rivalry. Throw in better comms and isn't that then suitable?

By the sound of it and assuming there'll be com features, it does satisfy the basic needs. It's also reassuring to see Frontier acknowledging that there even is a case for Pgroup features and that they're working on something.

In practice, the exact implementation will determine whether the case will be closed or not. The potential to find a middle ground for meaningful guild implementation while simultaneously not negatively affecting open-solo players' experience is there IMO. As is plenty of opportunity to gimp the player factions into uselessness. E.g. if player factions should turn out to only interact with each other in a grindy risk like game only geared towards armed confrontation over their name on the map and lack necessary com-features.

There are many features still missing from the game though, that could provide a lot of motivation for meaningful and not necessarily combat oriented interaction, both for single players and guilds. We know that there'll eventually be some form of crafting in season 2. Combine that with a player 2 player market, meaningful craftable commodities or ship/SRV equipment and you get a tool to drive a lot of trade and interaction.

 

[Asp Explorer]

This is some truly amazing stuff - if I remember correctly everything so far. Psycho analysis by a recently graduated Communications student, who played Eve for 13 years and was Super High Up and Important Recruiter, and was burned out on it and made paranoid by player activity. Now wants same player activity in another game, tells others they know nothing, while working at a Shell petrol station?

You could make movies out of this kind of thing, if such a hypothetical person existed

 

[smiths121]

The combination of the player supported minor factions and player powers actually gives quite a scalable solution, from a few friends working together for their chosen faction, to many thousands playing power play. Powerplay is a bit odd though, until you remember the vision is co-operative multi-play with occasional, memorable, and meaningful PvP (or something to that affect). I do think FD are better using mechanics they have rather than implementing a set of new mechanics for guilds, it will just cause division in the ranks.

The upcoming freedom fighter role allows individuals or small groups to lessen the affects of powers in their local areas as well. I expect the freedom fighter role to increase the amount of PvP, an organised power can "swot" a small freedom fighter cell advertising where they are based (sponsoring minor faction), but probably not eliminate it. At the moment powerplay is a different game which impacts on the Background Simulator, but those using the Background Simulator cannot impact on the Powers. I am actually really looking forward to this.

FD have already said wider communication has some technical barriers and cost barriers at the moment. I do hope that my "inbox" becomes an "inbox" though at some point.

Alas myself and the 6 others promoting a Fed Corporation on the Fed/Indy/Alliance border will still be dreaming of being a power in 10 years time. Seems about right, given our size!

Simon

By the sound of it and assuming there'll be com features, it does satisfy the basic needs. It's also reassuring to see Frontier acknowledging that there even is a case for Pgroup features and that they're working on something.

In practice, the exact implementation will determine whether the case will be closed or not. The potential to find a middle ground for meaningful guild implementation while simultaneously not negatively affecting open-solo players' experience is there IMO. As is plenty of opportunity to gimp the player factions into uselessness. E.g. if player factions should turn out to only interact with each other in a grindy risk like game only geared towards armed confrontation over their name on the map and lack necessary com-features.

There are many features still missing from the game though, that could provide a lot of motivation for meaningful and not necessarily combat oriented interaction, both for single players and guilds. We know that there'll eventually be some form of crafting in season 2. Combine that with a player 2 player market, meaningful craftable commodities or ship/SRV equipment and you get a tool to drive a lot of trade and interaction.

 

[Dave1235]

------

I have no comment on the above as it's all just relevant info on whats going on.

However

Can you re-post those links about the Player stations, Large group activities and crafting (That you did earlier) there's a guy up there asking for them.

Thanks

Would you mind posting the link that shows 70% of the player base bought the game on steam please, if I missed it before my apologies.

 

[Dave1235]

This is some truly amazing stuff - if I remember correctly everything so far. Psycho analysis by a recently graduated Communications student, who played Eve for 13 years and was Super High Up and Important Recruiter, and was burned out on it and made paranoid by player activity. Now wants same player activity in another game, tells others they know nothing, while working at a Shell petrol station?

You could make movies out of this kind of thing, if such a hypothetical person existed

You may remember I mentioned this thread had not had a single post in 3 weeks in another thread recently, funny that it was so quiet when the poll was still open .

Mmmm, the OP is allowed to start a new poll as the old thread was quite old (good idea if you believe polls mean anything), then accidentally links guilds to stations rather than separate options, so its already biased in favour of guilds. The poll starts to resemble the previous one with an anti guild majority so people go to Reddit and email their friends to come and vote. A mod even comments on the large amount of zero day accounts that's only activity is to vote in this thread. Then several weeks of silence before some more new accounts restart the debate, this time with a closed poll that says they are in the majority.

Very strange indeed, I do wonder why some of these people who are so passionate about guilds have not been arguing their case all along.

I have been a member of the Mobius private group for a long while now, apart from a hello in the Mobius thread the only other contact I have had with other Mobius members is a hello in passing, still not received my guild orders of an invite to a raid, at the moment I play alone in Mobius, maybe I am the subguild of Dave or something or I upset them somehow.

And Bacon Cats is a guild within Mobius, ROFLPMSL, you would have thought the poster of that could have looked on the groups page. Bacon Cats is a private group run by Julissa Silver, just like Mobius you have to get an invite from Julissa and join a group called, and you guessed it, its called Julissa Silver, it is impossible to be in Mobius at the same time as Bacon Cats.

This thread is even more amusing than Solo vs Open vs Groups and just like that one it will be amusing to watch people continue to petition for things FD have said are not going to happen, I can't wait until they finally get it, its so unlikely to happen, guilds or mode splitting. <add random comment about tears & salt>

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Would you mind posting the link that shows 70% of the player base bought the game on steam please, if I missed it before my apologies.

Little less than 30%, actually. 280k out of 640k total owners of ED have ED in their Steam Library, but many of those weren't purchased on Steam, they were simply linked to the accounts.

http://steamspy.com/app/359320

Looks like the $45 price tag is getting people back on the game too. Average players is creeping back up, which is a phenomenon you see when people start buying the game on sale and getting their friends back in the game who took a Hiatus because they didn't have anybody to play with.

If only it were easier to make new friends in the game.

 

[the100thmonkey]

At the moment powerplay is a different game which impacts on the Background Simulator, but those using the Background Simulator cannot impact on the Powers. I am actually really looking forward to this.

Me too - it's annoying seeing systems you care about going haywire because some chumps aligned to Hudson use it for bounty-hunting and nothing more, even though the system isn't even exploited (its CC balance is too low to bother with, really).

 

[david6768]

You may remember I mentioned this thread had not had a single post in 3 weeks in another thread recently, funny that it was so quiet when the poll was still open .

Mmmm, the OP is allowed to start a new poll as the old thread was quite old (good idea if you believe polls mean anything), then accidentally links guilds to stations rather than separate options, so its already biased in favour of guilds. The poll starts to resemble the previous one with an anti guild majority so people go to Reddit and email their friends to come and vote. A mod even comments on the large amount of zero day accounts that's only activity is to vote in this thread. Then several weeks of silence before some more new accounts restart the debate, this time with a closed poll that says they are in the majority.

Very strange indeed, I do wonder why some of these people who are so passionate about guilds have not been arguing their case all along.

I have been a member of the Mobius private group for a long while now, apart from a hello in the Mobius thread the only other contact I have had with other Mobius members is a hello in passing, still not received my guild orders of an invite to a raid, at the moment I play alone in Mobius, maybe I am the subguild of Dave or something or I upset them somehow.

And Bacon Cats is a guild within Mobius, ROFLPMSL, you would have thought the poster of that could have looked on the groups page. Bacon Cats is a private group run by Julissa Silver, just like Mobius you have to get an invite from Julissa and join a group called, and you guessed it, its called Julissa Silver, it is impossible to be in Mobius at the same time as Bacon Cats.

This thread is even more amusing than Solo vs Open vs Groups and just like that one it will be amusing to watch people continue to petition for things FD have said are not going to happen, I can't wait until they finally get it, its so unlikely to happen, guilds or mode splitting. <add random comment about tears & salt>

Well I for one "haven't been arguing the case ALL Along" because I just got the game last month and just joined the forums a couple of days ago! There has been no all along for me.

The funny thing all the I'm scared that guilds will take over the game and cause a pvp nightmare rhetoric is all the same complaints from the same people are already using them as the reason why they stay out of open. If you plan to stay out of open and play on Mobius or solo all the time then you really don't have a dog in the fight do you!
So basically your complaint boils down to you not wanting anyone else to get any game features.
The worst fears being portrayed here can already be accomplished if someone wanted to, What is stopping anyone from getting a group together on reddit or the forums here and blockading Sol or just causing general mayhem ? Nothing

You are more than likely correct in guilds never being implemented though.
1. guilds would be extremely difficult to implement with the way the half baked multiplayer system of instancing is coded. Multiplayer would need a rewrite
2. there is no point to guilds if there is no challenging content for a group to partake of. There isn't even challenging content for solo right now so more coding for that
That brings me to a sub point, Since there is no challenging content currently for solo what are all you solo advocates doing? Just cruising around looking at the scenery? This is not a dig I really want to know if I am missing out on some content somewhere as like I said I am newer to this game. Is there a system somewhere where the AI becomes challenging or the missions become interesting that I don't know about?

 

[Tuub t Tute]

That brings me to a sub point, Since there is no challenging content currently for solo what are all you solo advocates doing? Just cruising around looking at the scenery? This is not a dig I really want to know if I am missing out on some content somewhere as like I said I am newer to this game. Is there a system somewhere where the AI becomes challenging or the missions become interesting that I don't know about?

-
Not all of us can take on a triple Anaconda SSS armed with a fixed pulse sidewinder and a confident grin! Exploring, or more importantly returning with exploration data is less stressful in solo. Beyond that, people choose solo for many and varied reasons. Some people simply don't like other people, but either lack the skills or motivation to go around shooting Marvin in the face for being in their cross hairs

 

[Robert Maynard]

The funny thing all the I'm scared that guilds will take over the game and cause a pvp nightmare rhetoric is all the same complaints from the same people are already using them as the reason why they stay out of open. If you plan to stay out of open and play on Mobius or solo all the time then you really don't have a dog in the fight do you!

Not all players who are against the introduction of Guilds play outside Open. Me, for example.