The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[Bomba Luigi]

No you didn't, you provided two irrelevant examples of single player games.

And? Games more then 20 Years old people still play it shows games can be played even 20 Years after without certain Multiplayer content. Which you say is impossible, which it really isn't.

It does say nothing about what will be with Elite in 20 Years of course, but thats the same for every example on every side of the fence.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Does FFXI have Guilds?

(and yes, I know that is it coming to its end after over 11 years)

They're called Linkshells. And their implementation introduced many new facets to social groups that later games have often mimicked.

http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Linkshell

 

[Robert Maynard]

And again: What does that have to do with the question whether Elite should have guild or player owned station features?

Nothing.

The described behaviour is simply possible in Elite and little will stop players from ganking each other. Neither today nor in the future, unless rules or measures are introduced against it. If rules were introduced (which IMO, is a bit overdue), guilds, whether formally implemented or not, would have to abide by them as much as solo players. How much that is, depends pretty much on how strictly those rules will be enforced.

Which is still a completely separate topic, unrelated to guilds.

While rules, per se, are not directly related to Guilds, they would, as you say, apply to Guilds as well as Solo players - possibly with specific rules relating to Guilds. The introduction of rules might also reassure players by defining a set of acceptable behaviours (something that is absent at this time).

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

The Elite series also has its own microculture, has been like that since the first Elite came out 30 years ago, and the Kickstarter, I think you'll find, was backed by many people who played the original games. The DDA was a part of the process of helping Frontier shape Elite: Dangerous.

Your arguing for guild support in Elite is in fact going up against this microculture.

A small subset of that microculture, and their reasoning behind any objection to social features went out of the window with no Offline mode.

- - - Updated - - -

And? Games more then 20 Years old people still play it shows games can be played even 20 Years after without certain Multiplayer content. Which you say is impossible, which it really isn't.

It does say nothing about what will be with Elite in 20 Years of course, but thats the same for every example on every side of the fence.

No, you're misinterpreting what I said. I said that multiplayer games don't survive without that content, not single player games. Again, one is designed specifically for multiplayer, one is not, and their history cannot be compared except to highlight differences as I just pointed out, not similarities.

 

[Asp Explorer]

If one so chooses, Elite can be an entirely single player game, not totally offline though of course. Just stay in Solo or Group if you want to avoid everyone else apart from maybe a few friends, and if those modes ever get removed to please the pew-pews, simply double-NAT.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Was thinking earlier that the PVE and Guild proponents could form some sort of unholy mutually beneficial alliance and support each others campaigns! A PVE mode wouldn't have guilds and Guilds would be implemented in open.

Wouldn't help me much as a lone wolf in open though.

a mutually beneficial alliance, you mean a guild? And people no longer attacking each other and working cooperatively? You mean pve?

Somehow I don't see that happening, most likely the mutually assured destruction will continue.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

No, you're misinterpreting what I said. I said that multiplayer games don't survive without that content, not single player games. Again, one is designed specifically for multiplayer, one is not, and their history cannot be compared except to highlight differences as I just pointed out, not similarities.

ED is designed to also be palyed Single Player, and works fine as a sp game. But fine, then lets go with the good old Street Fighter 2, people play that Muliplayer to this day.

And you can't really slap the history of one game on another, Games that are very similiar can have very diffrent history. That we are doing that is even more silly considering we doing it to a Elite Game.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

ED is designed to also be palyed Single Player, and works fine as a sp game. But fine, then lets go with the good old Street Fighter 2, people play that Muliplayer to this day.

And you can't really slap the history of one game on another, Games that are very similiar can have very diffrent history. That we are doing that is even more silly considering we doing it to a Elite Game.

And they do it in person, side by side. No other social tools needed than facetime. SF2 is it's own social interaction tool.

Elite's trends and history were thrown out the window by Frontier development themselves by making it a multiplayer experience in the first place.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

A small subset of that microculture, and their reasoning behind any objection to social features went out of the window with no Offline mode.

I disagree about that "small subset". You can't just dismiss the Elite microculture like that - seeing as if it wasn't for that microculture, we probably wouldn't be here crossing swords on the ED forum.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

I disagree about that "small subset". You can't just dismiss the Elite microculture like that - seeing as if it wasn't for that microculture, we probably wouldn't be here crossing swords on the ED forum.

I didn't. FD did.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

And they do it in person, side by side. No other social tools needed than facetime. SF2 is it's own social interaction tool.

Elite's trends and history were thrown out the window by Frontier development themselves by making it a multiplayer experience in the first place.

So SP example does not count and MP example does not count. Work with me!

The point is Elite said [masked swearing redacted - please avoid this thank you] to history and did his own thing and it worked. So a nice example that you don't just have to copypaste what others are doing to be successful. Many successful games did it that way, they did what others didn't do before or they did it in a diffrent way. But again, that says nothing about ED because ED is not the first Elite, its not Wow or whatever and what happens to these games has nothing to do with ED. All this examples is just pointless, they say nothing about the Future of ED.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

I didn't. FD did.

Please elaborate.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

So SP example does not count and MP example does not count. Work with me!

The point is Elite said [masked swearing redacted - please avoid this thank you] to history and did his own thing and it worked. So a nice example that you don't just have to copypaste what others are doing to be successful. Many successful games did it that way, they did what others didn't do before or they did it in a diffrent way. But again, that says nothing about ED because ED is not the first Elite, its not Wow or whatever and what happens to these games has nothing to do with ED. All this examples is just pointless, they say nothing about the Future of ED.

You say it's pointless, but evidence says otherwise. Player retention is low, complaints about lack of social features are high, and the competition is growing while ED is not.

 

[SiriusSeven]

Enough.

First. No one can predict the future, or live an alternate reality. Let's stop arguing about that. No one knows how long ED will last with our without guilds. Even if it were to die an untimely death, no one can attribute it to the presence or absence of guilds over, for example, and any other facet of the game (it being a tedious unfinished grind fest with rules that change every week -- not that I'm judgemental or anything )

Also, ED is not EvE, WoW or any other game, and is in no danger of becoming them. The core architecture prevents this. Arguing about merits or detriments of this is another topic altogether, but spending pages arguing about other games is just a red herring.

Let's instead try to keep the discussion grounded in ED. I want guilds. And I want them because the game is horribly boring and tedious as is. I hang out on the forums more than play the game because the forums are where the personalities live, where I recognize people by name, where the conflict and struggles arise, and where meaningful reputations are forged etc. Oh, and were my messages are more certain to arrive to their intended recipients. I also trust players to deliver interesting content and objectives much much more quickly than FD. I desperately want to move this online, but the game is about as antisocial as it can get.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Please elaborate.

"ED is no longer about one ship, one Pilot guys, we're going to have massively multiplayer features with open PvP and community activities that encourage player conflict because that's what's hip with the kids. AREN'T YOU GUYS EXCITED?! Next up we're going to focus on porting to consoles and create a gameplay mode specifically to cater to an entirely alien audience but don't worry we'll port it over to PC later kind of."

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Enough.

First. No one can predict the future, or live an alternate reality. Let's stop arguing about that. No one knows how long ED will last with our without guilds. Even if it were to die an untimely death, no one can attribute it to the presence or absence of guilds over, for example, and any other facet of the game (it being a tedious unfinished grind fest with rules that change every week -- not that I'm judgemental or anything )

Also, ED is not EvE, WoW or any other game, and is in no danger of becoming them. The core architecture prevents this. Arguing about merits or detriments of this is another topic altogether, but spending pages arguing about other games is just a red herring.

Let's instead try to keep the discussion grounded in ED. I want guilds. And I want them because the game is horribly boring and tedious as is. I hang out on the forums more than play the game because the forums are where the personalities live, where I recognize people by name, where the conflict and struggles arise, and where meaningful reputations are forged etc. Oh, and were my messages are more certain to arrive to their intended recipients. I also trust players to deliver interesting content and objectives much much more quickly than FD. I desperately want to move this online, but the game is about as antisocial as Dark Souls.

I don't want guilds in ED. The game may be boring and horribly tedious for you, but awesome and Just Right for others. Just because you don't like the game doesn't make it a bad game, it perhaps makes it not the right game for you personally.

As has been said many times before - it was always recognised that this was going to be a niche game that not everyone would like.

Another example: I don't want to play EvE, in fact I don't like its guild basis at all. That doesn't mean EvE is a bad game, it just makes it not the right game for me.

When I became a backer for this game, I did so for a number of reasons - the main ones being I played the originals, and that it wouldn't be guild-based.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Let's instead try to keep the discussion grounded in ED. I want guilds. And I want them because the game is horribly boring and tedious as is. I hang out on the forums more than play the game because the forums are where the personalities live, where I recognize people by name, where the conflict and struggles arise, and where meaningful reputations are forged etc.

Proof in picture. Look at how many people say they rarely play ED anymore, but spend plenty of time on the forums because the forums are the only meaningful social interaction the community has.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Proof in picture. Look at how many people say they rarely play ED anymore, but spend plenty of time on the forums because the forums are the only meaningful social interaction the community has.

That's one.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

I don't want guilds in ED. The game may be boring and horribly tedious for you, but awesome and Just Right for others. Just because you don't like the game doesn't make it a bad game, it perhaps makes it not the right game for you personally.

As has been said many times before - it was always recognised that this was going to be a niche game that not everyone would like.

Another example: I don't want to play EvE, in fact I don't like its guild basis at all. That doesn't mean EvE is a bad game, it just makes it not the right game for me.

When I became a backer for this game, I did so for a number of reasons - the main ones being I played the originals, and that it wouldn't be guild-based.

And social features will in no way change the experience for people who like the game as is, so prioritizing your enjoyment of the game over someone else's is invalid, since your enjoyment is in no way threatened.

It is not recognized that ED would be a niche game by anyone but the egotists who want to feel special for playing it.

That's as common and broad of an audience as it gets.

If you don't want to play Eve, continue playing ED regardless of whether social tools are implemented or not. ED will remain wholly unique from any other game despite their presence.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

You say it's pointless, but evidence says otherwise. Player retention is low, complaints about lack of social features are high, and the competition is growing while ED is not.

There is no evidence for these things, you made them up. How successful the game is depends on what FD sees as successful and so far they are very happy with sale numbers and player activitiy.

Enough.

First. No one can predict the future, or live an alternate reality. Let's stop arguing about that. No one knows how long ED will last with our without guilds. Even if it were to die an untimely death, no one can attribute it to the presence or absence of guilds over, for example, and any other facet of the game (it being a tedious unfinished grind fest with rules that change every week -- not that I'm judgemental or anything )

Also, ED is not EvE, WoW or any other game, and is in no danger of becoming them. The core architecture prevents this. Arguing about merits or detriments of this is another topic altogether, but spending pages arguing about other games is just a red herring.

Let's instead try to keep the discussion grounded in ED. I want guilds. And I want them because the game is horribly boring and tedious as is. I hang out on the forums more than play the game because the forums are where the personalities live, where I recognize people by name, where the conflict and struggles arise, and where meaningful reputations are forged etc. Oh, and were my messages are more certain to arrive to their intended recipients. I also trust players to deliver interesting content and objectives much much more quickly than FD. I desperately want to move this online, but the game is about as antisocial as Dark Souls.

You are right, I'm going crazy here. Have some rep!