The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[david6768]

As Joe the pilot can change factions at will and decide wether or not to undermine your faction (or anyone elses) whilst being friendly on your screen - that's the way it works.

Until you employ or contract Joe - he can do anything he likes, wether you like it or not. Say you own a McDonalds, and Joe is a regular customer, and he comes in a few times a week. Suddenly he vanishes, but reappears a few weeks later. You find out he's been going to Burger King. Are you going to shoot him in the face for disloyalty?

Real life comparisons make absolutely no sense here.
In game I can " shoot him in the face" and not even get a bounty if he was in an enemy system. In Burger King I still get to go to jail. Even worse real life jail is worse than getting a bounty on my head in game or losing my ship.
Would I shoot him in game, if he was undermining my faction absolutely. Could we go to an anarchy system and bounty hunt together.... absolutely

Now when and If I decide to move to Uganda we can revisit the would I shoot someone in the face at Burger King but for now it really isn't a viable option.

 

[the100thmonkey]

I think this quite adequately demonstrates many things discussed in this thread.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=175065

I know it's xbox - but platform itself does not matter.

It definitely demonstrates that the OP doesn't understand the first rule of team-based gaming: don't shoot your team-mates.

 

[M00ka]

I think this quite adequately demonstrates many things discussed in this thread.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=175065

I know it's xbox - but platform itself does not matter.

And that, ladies and gentlemen shows just how nice guilds will be. So much for the unicorns and rainbows lol

 

[JosiahD]

How would a guild "kick you from a power?" A guild leader would not be a NPC power leader.

I think you read my post and you interjected what you thought you saw into it not what is actually in it!

I am merely stating that likely as not in ED guilds would be aligned with powers and in being so aligned that the PVP mechanics of who shoots who when would likely be in line with the current Power Play model of who shoots who when, no more, no less

Apologies if I misinterpreted your post - I took it to mean that you were implying that the Powerplay mechanics were indicative of why guilds should be in game (ie Powerplay provides similar aspects so player-run guilds should follow by inference). My point was that an NPC-run Power can't kick me, but that that's exactly what happens in a lot of player-run guilds.

 

[JosiahD]

I would go so far as to say guilds are already here in game. I wouldn't say that Mobius is a guild as someone else stated but I would say that the Fuel rats are a guild. I would say that once you align yourself with a power you are in a guild as you have teamed up with other players to accomplish a common goal.
What isn't present in game is a way to get together in game and organize to better effect that goal. You have to use third party tools such as IRC, TeamSpeak or Mumble to force in features that aren't present in game. One of the key features missing is a friend or foe indicator for who is in your group or on your team. This too can be forced in using your friends list but I would like to add joe the pilot that wanted to wing it up and trade with me or battle in a conflict zone with me to my friends list and the steady group of players that team up to a guild list. As Joe the pilot can change factions at will and undermine my faction all the while being friendly on my screen. A guild member should not have that privilege without dropping guild.

Which is why I don't personally have a problem with the basic notion of improved social and comms tools to assist in group play (not just guilds as such, but groups of players at large). That said, because those third party tools exist, why use Frontier development resources replicating them in-game? Apart from the IFF idea as I think that would be a good idea and relatively easy to implement if they adopted the transponder proposal and expanded it to include an IFF element.
.
What I do have a problem with is what comes after such tools are implemented. PvE-focused guilds may well be quite happy with the social and comms tools, leaving it at that. But we all know the types of guilds who won't stop at that, who will insist that now they have the tools to better coordinate their activities, they now want to actually 'own' territory and assets in-game, to compete for them, to fight over them. This is the aspect of player-run guilds many of us wish to avoid at all costs. It's the aspect of player-run guilds that led Frontier to exclude guild-based play in the first place - the toxic environment created by such guilds affects everyone and wouldn't be good for the game because the more PvP-focused environment that results intrudes on the PvE focus of the game (because they are not segregated in open mode). From my perspective, I'd rather do without the guild-based social tools and comms to begin with than run the gauntlet of what follows, if that's what it takes - which I find sad as the basic social and comms tools would be really useful on a wide basis. Might not be the way others would deal with it, but that's where I stand - for now I'm happy to wait and see what comes with the player-influenced basis behind transitioning a minor faction to Power status as I assume that will necessitate some of the tools guild-players want (eg Power-wide chat).

 

[Triblade]

the toxic environment created by such guilds affects everyone and wouldn't be good for the game because the more PvP-focused environment that results intrudes on the PvE focus of the game (because they are not segregated in open mode).

First of all, who decides what is a 'toxic environment'? And what is it exactly?
One of the most used examples is EVE Online, as it is a long running popular space game. There you have 'corporations'. These corporations bind people together to get even more out of the game, social wise. And yes, even EVE has player who are not member of a corp. In EVE there is something as nulsec (0.0 space) where pirates cannot (without severe consequences) attack others. This system could work quite well in ED imo.

So, if there would be a guild/clan system, you don't have to join of course.

I would welcome it, as you already suspect. Why? Because there is something lacking in the game, and it isn't planetary landing on non-atmospheric planets only. It is a connection with others. ED is a MMO in it's core. So isn't it weird to have almost no social tooling? Or some way to bind people together?

But why, we have Powers! Well.... how does that contribute to talking to others?

Space is big. This game reflects that perfectly. But with big space, comes empty space. This is one common complain among a lot of players. You can fill it with NPCs, or use the PowerPlay system to get people in the same place, but it's too... I don't know... non-committal. (if my google translate did it's work correctly)



I see a future of clan-owned stations before me. Where you could put your personal stuff and maybe use a facility to product a bullet or thousand. Where clans could wage wars against each other because they already own the biggest ships with the best weapons and have billions to spare...

Maybe it's just me, that misses something and tries to fill it with more social stuff... I also am a long time Freelancer player. I did have more long-time fun there, but I can't really put my finger on it. Is it because the missions where more engaging? Was it because there always was something to upgrade, a system you could not enter without good gear because else you are gone in 0.1 sec? Or something else...?

 

[Julissa Silver]

So, if there would be a guild/clan system, you don't have to join of course.

Unfortunately, the inevitable outcome of their being a guild/clan system would be increased projection of hostile, 'claimed' space and further demands from (perhaps a minority of) guilds for more and more direct powers re: background galaxy sim and more attempts to negatively impact the sim if demands are not met. That is an easy conclusion to draw from the very clear evidence in this and other threads rife with name-calling, posturing and often outright bragging of intent to abuse others or simply wage chaos and destruction if not appeased.

Such projections create the potential to develop into a broader toxic environment (an environment that is counter-productive to long term health and productivity of it's members and the collective as a whole, in this case "the galaxy") through the growth of a bullying culture; the application of bullying and aggression and a binary win/lose, us/them mindset. As Frontier have repeatedly stated that they believe all modes are equal and valid, we can also imply that playing by oneself without direct influence on your person from others actions is also intended and valid. Guilds would break that separation so the conclusion is that territory owning and sim-modifying guilds should never happen.

And with that, /thread.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

First of all, who decides what is a 'toxic environment'? And what is it exactly?
One of the most used examples is EVE Online, as it is a long running popular space game. There you have 'corporations'. These corporations bind people together to get even more out of the game, social wise. And yes, even EVE has player who are not member of a corp. In EVE there is something as nulsec (0.0 space) where pirates cannot (without severe consequences) attack others. This system could work quite well in ED imo.

So, if there would be a guild/clan system, you don't have to join of course.

I would welcome it, as you already suspect. Why? Because there is something lacking in the game, and it isn't planetary landing on non-atmospheric planets only. It is a connection with others. ED is a MMO in it's core. So isn't it weird to have almost no social tooling? Or some way to bind people together?

But why, we have Powers! Well.... how does that contribute to talking to others?

Space is big. This game reflects that perfectly. But with big space, comes empty space. This is one common complain among a lot of players. You can fill it with NPCs, or use the PowerPlay system to get people in the same place, but it's too... I don't know... non-committal. (if my google translate did it's work correctly)



I see a future of clan-owned stations before me. Where you could put your personal stuff and maybe use a facility to product a bullet or thousand. Where clans could wage wars against each other because they already own the biggest ships with the best weapons and have billions to spare...

Maybe it's just me, that misses something and tries to fill it with more social stuff... I also am a long time Freelancer player. I did have more long-time fun there, but I can't really put my finger on it. Is it because the missions where more engaging? Was it because there always was something to upgrade, a system you could not enter without good gear because else you are gone in 0.1 sec? Or something else...?

When the word toxic is used in the context of Elite, it means "any idea proposed which would change that which makes Elite, Elite. Read up on the history of the game, and what made it so popular in the first place.

These guild proposals are toxic to the whole ethos and atmosphere of the Elite concept.

It's cancer to Elite - and we who are fighting your proposal are the cure.

 

[JosiahD]

First of all, who decides what is a 'toxic environment'? And what is it exactly?
One of the most used examples is EVE Online, as it is a long running popular space game. There you have 'corporations'. These corporations bind people together to get even more out of the game, social wise. And yes, even EVE has player who are not member of a corp. In EVE there is something as nulsec (0.0 space) where pirates cannot (without severe consequences) attack others. This system could work quite well in ED imo.

So, if there would be a guild/clan system, you don't have to join of course.

I would welcome it, as you already suspect. Why? Because there is something lacking in the game, and it isn't planetary landing on non-atmospheric planets only. It is a connection with others. ED is a MMO in it's core. So isn't it weird to have almost no social tooling? Or some way to bind people together?

But why, we have Powers! Well.... how does that contribute to talking to others?

Space is big. This game reflects that perfectly. But with big space, comes empty space. This is one common complain among a lot of players. You can fill it with NPCs, or use the PowerPlay system to get people in the same place, but it's too... I don't know... non-committal. (if my google translate did it's work correctly)



I see a future of clan-owned stations before me. Where you could put your personal stuff and maybe use a facility to product a bullet or thousand. Where clans could wage wars against each other because they already own the biggest ships with the best weapons and have billions to spare...

Maybe it's just me, that misses something and tries to fill it with more social stuff... I also am a long time Freelancer player. I did have more long-time fun there, but I can't really put my finger on it. Is it because the missions where more engaging? Was it because there always was something to upgrade, a system you could not enter without good gear because else you are gone in 0.1 sec? Or something else...?

Who decides what is toxic? That's easy - each individual will have their own perception of what constitutes toxic gameplay. From an overall game development perspective, Frontier (NOT us) will decide the content etc that they think would be toxic to the type of game they wish to create. In my opinion, the worst aspects of player-run guilds are most certainly toxic to the game community at large (in any game, not just here). I'm sure someone who enjoys perpetrating that toxicity would disagree ..... and probably claim it to be 'emergent content' or some such.

 

[the100thmonkey]

I see a future of clan-owned stations before me.

If FD introduce "clan-owned" assets and make them separate from the sim, I'll simply stop playing, as it will not be the game I bought. If they introduce "clan-owned" assets and include them in the sim, I'll keep playing and flip them right under your nose. Because I can.

ED is a MMO in it's core.

No, it's really not. You've not understood the game at all.

 

[Viajero]

The galaxy is big, even the colonized space is huge... I personally would not see player owned outpost or small stations as a threat or an issue for non org players. The beauty of a 1:1 galaxy is that if a player does not want to have to see other players even within colonized space it is somehting very easy to do, nevermind Solo.

 

[XYZ]

The galaxy is big, even the colonized space is huge... I personally would not see player owned outpost or small stations as a threat or an issue for non org players. The beauty of a 1:1 galaxy is that if a player does not want to have to see other players even within colonized space it is somehting very easy to do, nevermind Solo.

I just logged here coz this last post i have in quote.
I support in 100% what you have said.
Last time i was logged at this forum around april.
I have Anaconda, Python, and a few smaller ships...
I have played 100% in open play, very rare in wing.
Didnt played for around 2-3 months coz game started to be boring as hell.
Im playing since last 2 weeks and game is still boring - every ship looks the same from pilot view, you cant feel the scale of ships, there is no content for players who have cash for every ship they want, and power play is a joke (ok i see very nice idea behind it but still it doesnt work).
I am a fanboy of old elite frontier with witch i spend countless hours.
My sad conclusion is D. Braben mentally is sticked to good old frontier and he is unable to give us anything more, like he didnt notice that 20 ly have passed.
Another 40 pounds new game / 30 expansion for me ? is this is a joke ? For planetary landings that frontier had ? Anyway not a big problem for me coz i dont know if i will buy it, it seems that it will be nice for a month , later nothing special.
If Elite doesnt give us content why they dont want to give us tools to make space rpg by our own ?
What is the point to play now other then achivement driven system of elite ranks and power play factions ?
Why we do not have first person walking around hangars and ships , why cant we create guilds in game (wings are nice but not the same), why cant i tranfer money to someone, why cant i post bounty over some CMDR head and so on....

This game is dying , and it is very sad for me.


PS. before anyone reply pls consider EVE online have all and Star Citizen will have as well , and dont talk about budget coz it is silly- changes that will make this game a lot better do not cost that much for example wings and community goals are great and very cheap to put in game.

PS 2.

Since Jongt is spending time keeping the system clear for the CG traders, he has less time for contributing to this CG. So, the traders that fly in open who believe he should be rewarded for protecting you from pirates, I encourage you do so by dropping him a load of gold to make up for the lower reward that he'll get from the CG. If you're making a nice reward from the CG and you've benefitted from his anti-piracy patrols, how about giving him a tip (e.g. 5% of your CG reward in gold)?

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=169418&page=279

Above is a proff how much players are hungry of pvp interaction other than shooting. Why do we need to exploit game features to do that ?

 

[Dave1235]

The galaxy is big, even the colonized space is huge... I personally would not see player owned outpost or small stations as a threat or an issue for non org players. The beauty of a 1:1 galaxy is that if a player does not want to have to see other players even within colonized space it is somehting very easy to do, nevermind Solo.

FD have previously mentioned something about "inflatable stations" IIRC, I assume they are a small hideout for one or maybe a few people to store, refuel, repair & and rearm ships, I personally would not expect my own personal market, just my own hanger.

FD have also mentioned that they do not intend to provide guild support although they do like their version which DBOBE referred to in the EGX video as "friends groups" or similar I believe.

If guilds want their own option in the start menu, I will back them, I hope they would return the favour by backing a PVE option too for the > 90% of the players who don't use the forums. Fair is fair and I am talking about adding options, I believe guilds in Open will reduce them, Lave, Leesti, Diso in Open "CODE anyone?".

The defence rests your honour.

 

[Vindris]

Have devs mentioned anything about Player created factions/clans, and player owned Starports?

Thread title pretty much says it all. I think player created factions and/or clans, as well as player-group-created and owned Stations is an amazing idea. If there are no plans to add this to the game, there definitely should be!

 

[Crimson Kaim]

A-Lot.

Ima get you this huge thread in a moment ... hold on.


Here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=166180&highlight=clan+discussion

 

[goemon]

it's been discussed, yes.

looks as if player driven factions will have a chance to get powers in powerplay (that's closest to a "clan").

looks as if player or group owned stations won't happen.

OP, be ready that many people here don't think clans or player owned structures are an amazing idea.

 

[dynamicbob]

FD have previously mentioned something about "inflatable stations" IIRC, I assume they are a small hideout for one or maybe a few people to store, refuel, repair & and rearm ships, I personally would not expect my own personal market, just my own hanger.

FD have also mentioned that they do not intend to provide guild support although they do like their version which DBOBE referred to in the EGX video as "friends groups" or similar I believe.

If guilds want their own option in the start menu, I will back them, I hope they would return the favour by backing a PVE option too for the > 90% of the players who don't use the forums. Fair is fair and I am talking about adding options, I believe guilds in Open will reduce them, Lave, Leesti, Diso in Open "CODE anyone?".

The defence rests your honour.

Why are groups that support a minor faction or wanna create their own not being really catered for at present and actively ignored ? theres a lack of automatic tools, to the dev team if Braben says do it this way then do it the opposite please for the sake of the game

 

[Dave1235]

Why are groups that support a minor faction or wanna create their own not being really catered for at present and actively ignored ? theres a lack of automatic tools, to the dev team if Braben says do it this way then do it the opposite please for the sake of the game

There was a thread, by Zac I think, where he asked the leaders of groups to contact him, they are asking for input, IIRC it was a sticky for a while and I believe skype chats were mentioned.

I would guess they are not in the game yet for the same reason AI wingmen are not, FD haven't finished writing the code, what level of "automatic tools" is still unknown as far as I am aware.

 

[Mohrgan]

There was a thread, by Zac I think, where he asked the leaders of groups to contact him, they are asking for input, IIRC it was a sticky for a while and I believe skype chats were mentioned.

I would guess they are not in the game yet for the same reason AI wingmen are not, FD haven't finished writing the code, what level of "automatic tools" is still unknown as far as I am aware.

There has been an update. I can cut and paste it here. It came from a e-mail sent to players that contacted Zak about making an association with a minor faction:

Greetings commanders,

If you’re receiving this email it’s because you have registered as part of our player groups. First of all thank you - both for registering with us but more importantly for being a really vital part of our community.

I’m conscious I haven’t been in touch recently regarding player groups and with Gamescom and Elite Dangerous Horizons announcements time has been limited. So I just wanted to send a quick update to keep you informed of where we are.

So the first thing is if you haven’t noticed you’ve been added to the groups register. Which means we will be able to keep you updated with information and events or groups emails – like this one!

Ranks

As we mentioned in the forums we will be setting group ranks. These ranks will change over time but essentially they are our way of being able to offer the right level of support to each group. Once we’ve assigned the ranks we will let you know. This is really just about being able to give the right level of support to each group. Whether that be a regular group skype chat or promotion for a competition or event. This won’t affect your ability to participate in CG’s or establish your minor faction.

In the meantime if you have an event of competition you want to run email groups@elitedangerous.com

Minor Factions

Very shortly (I was hoping today but time has ran away with me) we would like to be able to inform everyone how they can register for their own official in game minor faction. This will be an email registration process to begin with and a few details.

As a group you will be able to select the name, location and details of your faction and it will be added in game. If you have already adopted a minor faction then you will be able to (for a short period) be able to register that minor faction as your own, with some suitable checks done of course.

You will only be able to have 1 official minor faction.

Becoming a power

More details of this will follow on once we have established the minor factions.

Otherwise I just wanted to say thank you again (I might do that a lot). This time for the patience you’ve shown over the past few weeks while we make sure we have everything we need to be able to support you. As always please do get in touch if there is anything you need at all.

I’m actually away next week but Ed is on hand to pick up any requests you might have. Feel free to keep in touch with myself or Ed if you need anything. However, always do email groups@elitedangerous.com also so we can make sure someone in the team sees it.


Thanks,

Zac

I didn't receive the e-mail, I just came across it in another thread concerning one such group.

 

[Herik]

Just to politely but publicly remind FD; Some 40,000 of your original E players did not and still Do Not Like (in no particular order):

__ player owned/run stations

__ player run 'guild' systems

__ player 'empire' building

It seems a respectable %age of (multiplayer gamers) expect most of the above. But all of these things limit the freedom we backers expect in playing your game.

It's apparent some creative juggling besides whats already here with 'play modes' -(Youv'e done it); will have to be done to give all players the game they want.

Kudos ! I deeply appreciate what you have accomplished with the game, and where your going. I want to continue.