The Star Citizen Thread v 3.0

[Confucios]

Those concept art pics do indeed look good. How much of it will be visitable?

From what we know is that ArcCorp is still in its infancy and will grow, how much bigger we can only guess (more alleys, shops and landing pad´s access are the logical guess).

Spoiler

[video=youtube;HjfG804C-xQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=206&v=HjfG804C-xQ[/video]

Those first 4 planned city's (arccorp, microtech, hurstoun, crusader) are supposed to be small and compact, compared with the main city TERRA which will be the capital of the universe in the game and the biggest city in the universe, a mix of Rio de Janeiro and Dubai (3x times bigger than ArcCorp) (hence why it will take longer to be shown).

Spoiler

Concerning the flight model imo the big revision will be looked at when the medium sized multi-crew ships are added, anyone manning a turret will do so while aiming with the mouse, if the targets are slow and predictive turners they will make for easy targets so I think there will be some concern balances until all the strafing / aiming balance goes "gold".

 

[Voivod]

The only way you can out maneuver in Elite (enter a turning battle) is if you are within a certain range. Outside of that range you can't do jack about being hit while you close the distance. Then there are the turrets that you can't out maneuver at all, you have to spam chaff. So my statement still stands.

Well you changed your statement and added distance to it now.
In ED you can either try and close in fast, chaff if possible, pump your shields and try to tank, avoid non-gimballed weapons etc
In AC you need some kind of obstacle between you and them or it's whoever can gun down the other faster (like 99% percent of AC 1on1 dogfights).

 

[fourty6to3]

Well you changed your statement and added distance to it now.
In ED you can either try and close in fast, chaff if possible, pump your shields and try to tank, avoid non-gimballed weapons etc
In AC you need some kind of obstacle between you and them or it's whoever can gun down the other faster (like 99% percent of AC 1on1 dogfights).

I didn't change my statement, I elaborated. Maneuvering still does nothing against turrets, and is not as effective against gimbals unless chaff is spammed. Even you admit that you can't use the flight model in ED to avoid fire unless you're already within turn fighting range when the engagement begins - you have to tank or chaff, which does sweet f all for fixed weapons. How exactly do you avoid weapons, regardless if they are gimbaled?

I can show you lots of videos of people in AC avoiding fire. Every single ED video you see are people who have no choice but to tank the fire or flee (if they aren't mass locked). It's even worse when you have more than 1 contact engaging you - you get to see the little 3D display of your ship light up like a Christmas tree and there's next to nothing you can do about it. The fact that you can use obstacles to lose LOS and blip off the radar in SC is another point for it, not against it, as it adds another aspect to combat which is just now being implemented in CQC - however, it's unnecessary for evading fire (again, we're talking about the flight model).

This means that in ED there's really no point for choosing a smaller ship like the Eagle or Sidewinder to go up against a vulture or python. The small increase of maneuverability for those ships is not enough to counter distance or reversing. Maybe if all (?) of the laser weapons weren't hitscan it wouldn't be as big a problem. Go ahead, show me a video of someone evading fire in ED by utilizing the flight mechanics while they close in to a target engaging them. I'll wait. Not because I don't think it exists, but because I'm genuinely interested in real evasion tactics in Elite. Chaff doesn't count (it's not a flight model).

 

[BEKTOP 3APEMOB]

I didn't change my statement, I elaborated. Maneuvering still does nothing against turrets, and is not as effective against gimbals unless chaff is spammed. Even you admit that you can't use the flight model in ED to avoid fire unless you're already within turn fighting range when the engagement begins - you have to tank or chaff, which does sweet f all for fixed weapons. How exactly do you avoid weapons, regardless if they are gimbaled?

I can show you lots of videos of people in AC avoiding fire. Every single ED video you see are people who have no choice but to tank the fire or flee (if they aren't mass locked). It's even worse when you have more than 1 contact engaging you - you get to see the little 3D display of your ship light up like a Christmas tree and there's next to nothing you can do about it. The fact that you can use obstacles to lose LOS and blip off the radar in SC is another point for it, not against it, as it adds another aspect to combat which is just now being implemented in CQC - however, it's unnecessary for evading fire (again, we're talking about the flight model).

This means that in ED there's really no point for choosing a smaller ship like the Eagle or Sidewinder to go up against a vulture or python. The small increase of maneuverability for those ships is not enough to counter distance or reversing. Maybe if all (?) of the laser weapons weren't hitscan it wouldn't be as big a problem. Go ahead, show me a video of someone evading fire in ED by utilizing the flight mechanics while they close in to a target engaging them. I'll wait. Not because I don't think it exists, but because I'm genuinely interested in real evasion tactics in Elite. Chaff doesn't count (it's not a flight model).

Maybe I've been looking at wrong videos of SC. Can you point me to a video of space-combat in SC that you consider to be good?

 

[Voivod]

I didn't change my statement, I elaborated. Maneuvering still does nothing against turrets, and is not as effective against gimbals unless chaff is spammed. Even you admit that you can't use the flight model in ED to avoid fire unless you're already within turn fighting range when the engagement begins - you have to tank or chaff, which does sweet f all for fixed weapons. How exactly do you avoid weapons, regardless if they are gimbaled?

I can show you lots of videos of people in AC avoiding fire. Every single ED video you see are people who have no choice but to tank the fire or flee (if they aren't mass locked). It's even worse when you have more than 1 contact engaging you - you get to see the little 3D display of your ship light up like a Christmas tree and there's next to nothing you can do about it. The fact that you can use obstacles to lose LOS and blip off the radar in SC is another point for it, not against it, as it adds another aspect to combat which is just now being implemented in CQC - however, it's unnecessary for evading fire (again, we're talking about the flight model).

This means that in ED there's really no point for choosing a smaller ship like the Eagle or Sidewinder to go up against a vulture or python. The small increase of maneuverability for those ships is not enough to counter distance or reversing. Maybe if all (?) of the laser weapons weren't hitscan it wouldn't be as big a problem. Go ahead, show me a video of someone evading fire in ED by utilizing the flight mechanics while they close in to a target engaging them. I'll wait. Not because I don't think it exists, but because I'm genuinely interested in real evasion tactics in Elite. Chaff doesn't count (it's not a flight model).

First of all you're comparing arena combat in AC with obstacles to open combat in ED without obstacles.

I'd never expect a python to be killed by an eagle or a sidewinder (equally skilled pilots). They're not even remotely in the same class. You can certainly try though.


Show me a video of people in AC avoiding fire without obstacles. I'm genuinely curious.


I'm getting a bit confused by what you're talking about. In SC you can turn on point to any direction (which was SM's point)... in ED you can outmaneuver other pilots. So how can you find the SC flight model promoting more maneuverability than the ED flight model? In one game you're flying a turret in space in the other a plane in space.

 

[fourty6to3]

Maybe I've been looking at wrong videos of SC. Can you point me to a video of space-combat in SC that you consider to be good?

Sure. Off the top of my head these videos show off how effective evasion can be:

[video=youtube;1vNRU3N5OC8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vNRU3N5OC8[/video]

[video=youtube;Ym4XofJ2ezY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym4XofJ2ezY[/video]

[video=youtube;R1COtEm65YQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1COtEm65YQ[/video]

My video practicing against the AI (I'm pretty much a novice):

[video=youtube;NZdKt1BjutI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZdKt1BjutI[/video]

Not saying that there isn't serious problems in SC at the moment, but the difference is very noticeable between the two games when it comes to evasion. Basically it's up to the pilot how well they want to evade in SC, and in ED there is very little you can do, is all I'm saying.

 

[MarktJones]

I didn't change my statement, I elaborated. Maneuvering still does nothing against turrets, and is not as effective against gimbals unless chaff is spammed. Even you admit that you can't use the flight model in ED to avoid fire unless you're already within turn fighting range when the engagement begins - you have to tank or chaff, which does sweet f all for fixed weapons. How exactly do you avoid weapons, regardless if they are gimbaled?

I can show you lots of videos of people in AC avoiding fire. Every single ED video you see are people who have no choice but to tank the fire or flee (if they aren't mass locked). It's even worse when you have more than 1 contact engaging you - you get to see the little 3D display of your ship light up like a Christmas tree and there's next to nothing you can do about it. The fact that you can use obstacles to lose LOS and blip off the radar in SC is another point for it, not against it, as it adds another aspect to combat which is just now being implemented in CQC - however, it's unnecessary for evading fire (again, we're talking about the flight model).

This means that in ED there's really no point for choosing a smaller ship like the Eagle or Sidewinder to go up against a vulture or python. The small increase of maneuverability for those ships is not enough to counter distance or reversing. Maybe if all (?) of the laser weapons weren't hitscan it wouldn't be as big a problem. Go ahead, show me a video of someone evading fire in ED by utilizing the flight mechanics while they close in to a target engaging them. I'll wait. Not because I don't think it exists, but because I'm genuinely interested in real evasion tactics in Elite. Chaff doesn't count (it's not a flight model).

Do you have videos of people in SC avoiding fire without using cover?

 

[Voivod]

Sure. Off the top of my head these videos show off how effective evasion can be:

Can you be a bit more specific? Could you give us some specific points in those videos where someone is evading fire without obstacles?
I watched a few minutes of the first video and the guy is just aiming and shooting.

Basically it's up to the pilot how well they want to evade in SC, and in ED there is very little you can do, is all I'm saying.

My experience is exactly the opposite.
You can try and maneuver all you want in SC but since you can turn to point in any direction there's little point to it.

 

[fourty6to3]

First of all you're comparing arena combat in AC with obstacles to open combat in ED without obstacles.

I'd never expect a python to be killed by an eagle or a sidewinder (equally skilled pilots). They're not even remotely in the same class. You can certainly try though.


Show me a video of people in AC avoiding fire without obstacles. I'm genuinely curious.


I'm getting a bit confused by what you're talking about. In SC you can turn on point to any direction (which was SM's point)... in ED you can outmaneuver other pilots. So how can you find the SC flight model promoting more maneuverability than the ED flight model? In one game you're flying a turret in space in the other a plane in space.

Well now that CQC is released for Elite we can properly compare the two. If you have beta access, you can play it for yourself and see. Just play a few rounds without firing a shot, and focus only on evasion. Take note how many times you see the flashing lights on the radar and your 3D display light up while you're trying to avoid it, or how quickly your shields go down when someone above/behind you starts firing while you try to get into a turning battle with them.

I agree that being able to turn on a dime in SC makes things turrety. However, if they are going to nerf that then they would also need to remove interactive mouse mode otherwise it would be impossible to evade it, and I believe CIG has stated that IM is here to stay - so the current FM for SC is a necessary evil in my opinion.

If two equally skilled pilots are up against each other, I would suggest that the one with the more maneuverable ship would likely come out on top - simply because they should be harder to hit. Unfortunately in Elite, the smallest and most maneuverable ships can't counter distance or reversing, let alone turrets, of a larger less maneuverable ship. Even if a Sidewinder is lucky enough to get within range of a turning battle with a vastly larger ship, most of it's time is spent getting hit by turrets or trying to get on it's six. This is where I believe the problem is. Elite's FM is too restrictive with the smaller ships (they fly just like the largest ship in the game, only a little faster - but not fast enough to really make a difference). So with that said, I think that's why you wouldn't expect a sidewinder to be able to hold it's own against a python. If the smaller ships could fly like they do in the capital ship trailer, then they might actually be able to serve a purpose.

 

[Voivod]

Well now that CQC is released for Elite we can properly compare the two. If you have beta access, you can play it for yourself and see. Just play a few rounds without firing a shot, and focus only on evasion. Take note how many times you see the flashing lights on the radar and your 3D display light up while you're trying to avoid it, or how quickly your shields go down when someone above/behind you starts firing while you try to get into a turning battle with them.

I have played it. Maneuverability is immensely important to survival since the ships are small and have so little shield/armor.
If you get fired upon while you're chasing/dogfighting someone else, you shouldn't get into a turning battle with them, you should try and avoid their line of sight by using the environment... that's why it's there.
There's a few CQC videos with brilliant piloting out there.

I agree that being able to turn on a dime in SC makes things turrety.

So how can you claim maneuverability is important in SC when you can just completely nullify any fancy maneuvers your opponent is doing by just pointing and targeting?

If two equally skilled pilots are up against each other, I would suggest that the one with the more maneuverable ship would likely come out on top - simply because they should be harder to hit.

But you're comparing ships with different levels of maneuverability.

Unfortunately in Elite, the smallest and most maneuverable ships can't counter distance or reversing, let alone turrets, of a larger less maneuverable ship.
Even if a Sidewinder is lucky enough to get within range of a turning battle with a vastly larger ship, most of it's time is spent getting hit by turrets or trying to get on it's six. This is where I believe the problem is. Elite's FM is too restrictive with the smaller ships (they fly just like the largest ship in the game, only a little faster - but not fast enough to really make a difference). So with that said, I think that's why you wouldn't expect a sidewinder to be able to hold it's own against a python. If the smaller ships could fly like they do in the capital ship trailer, then they might actually be able to serve a purpose.

But everything you say here also applies to SC?

Also, you don't expect a sidewinder to kill a python because they're different class of ships. You'd expect a wing of sidewinders to do that and they most certainly can.

 

[fourty6to3]

Can you be a bit more specific? Could you give us some specific points in those videos where someone is evading fire without obstacles?
I watched a few minutes of the first video and the guy is just aiming and shooting.




My experience is exactly the opposite.
You can try and maneuver all you want in SC but since you can turn to point in any direction there's little point to it.

Sure, but I wont spend too much time going through every video.

In the first one, it's a little hard to tell, but he utilizes his velocity indicator to always be moving by use of his thrusters. As he rolls, he's making sure that the pips of anyone shooting at him are constantly changing.

At 1:35 of the second video you see the Mustang ship using his boost/thrusters to change random directions. Take note how fast the lead pips change. Also note that they are as "open" as you can get in AC, not alot of hiding behind cover.

Looking over the third video, I'm not sure why I posted it as he isn't doing much evading until someone shoots a missile at him.

4th video, at 2:04 I'm being shot at and use a combination of a barrel roll and lateral thrust/boost.

In AC, to evade it's not enough to just rotate the nose of your ship. You have to make sure your velocity indicator is moving, and you do that by thrust/boost in the proper direction (and not doing a 180). If you do a 180, you're basically standing still for a while as far as the target pips are concerned.

 

[Mu77ley]

At 1:35 of the second video you see the Mustang ship using his boost/thrusters to change random directions. Take note how fast the lead pips change.

If you'd watched as far as 1:56 in that video you'd have realised that the random speed/direction changes are more than likely due to network lag and rubber-banding...

 

[fourty6to3]

I have played it. Maneuverability is immensely important to survival since the ships are small and have so little shield/armor.
If you get fired upon while you're chasing/dogfighting someone else, you shouldn't get into a turning battle with them, you should try and avoid their line of sight by using the environment... that's why it's there.
There's a few CQC videos with brilliant piloting out there.

Exactly, this is essentially what I've been trying to say. In Elite you can't use the FM to avoid fire, which is why obstacles in CQC are so important.

So how can you claim maneuverability is important in SC when you can just completely nullify any fancy maneuvers your opponent is doing by just pointing and targeting?

Well they can point and shoot at you all day if they want. Just because you shot at the pips doesn't mean you'll hit them. They will likely miss simply because the other pilot adjusted his rotation/heading.

But you're comparing ships with different levels of maneuverability.

Yes, and I'm saying that the FM is too restrictive for the smaller ships since everything flies pretty much the same. Sidewinder should be able to do circles around a python/anaconda, not get stuck in a turning battle. Right now the levels of maneuverability between the two ships feels insignificant, so I wouldn't choose to fly a Sidewinder over a Python.

But everything you say here also applies to SC?

Also, you don't expect a sidewinder to kill a python because they're different class of ships. You'd expect a wing of sidewinders to do that and they most certainly can.

I'm not sure if it would apply the same way in SC. The way things are now, if the bigger ships could turn on a dime in SC that would be absurd - but judging by the multicrew demo, the larger ships looked like they flew similar to the way the larger ships in Elite do. The turrets on the larger ships then become important, but just as important are the smaller ships ability to maneuver around the firing of the turrets.

No, I'm not necessarily saying that a lone Sidewinder should be able to kill a python. Only that I would expect a python should have a really hard time trying to hit a Sidewinder in any meaningful way. A single Sidewinder might just be able to put a dent into a vastly larger ship, so to speak. But yeah, I do expect a wing of Sidewinders to take one out - but thats in spite of Elite's FM. I'm saying that if I'm in a Sidewinder and a wing of pythons jump in, my first thought shouldn't be that "I'm screwed". But on the flip side, if a wing of Sidewinders jumps in on a lone python, the python should be coming up with an exit plan.

 

[fourty6to3]

If you'd watched as far as 1:56 in that video you'd have realised that the random speed/direction changes are more than likely due to network lag and rubber-banding...

That's a negative as far as 1:56 is concerned. What you saw there was Toooski losing his lock on the Mustang (the ship was still there if you watch again). I'm not sure if thats a bug or by design, but happens a lot.

 

[Voivod]

In Elite you can't use the FM to avoid fire, which is why obstacles in CQC are so important.

But you CAN use the FM to avoid fire... it's just that obstacles make things easier to lose sight than simply having to outmaneuvering your opponent.

Well they can point and shoot at you all day if they want. Just because you shot at the pips doesn't mean you'll hit them. They will likely miss simply because the other pilot adjusted his rotation/heading.

.... the point of the conversation isn't if you'll hit all your shots or not.. it's that outmaneuvering your opponent in SC is pointless due to the turn rate. You can't get out of their field of view without obstacles.

 

[fourty6to3]

But you CAN use the FM to avoid fire... it's just that obstacles make things easier to lose sight than simply having to outmaneuvering your opponent.




.... the point of the conversation isn't if you'll hit all your shots or not.. it's that outmaneuvering your opponent in SC is pointless due to the turn rate. You can't get out of their field of view without obstacles.

Is there a video of this? I really want to see it.

Wait, are you saying that outmaneuvering your opponent is pointless because even though they can't hit you, they can still have you in their field of view? What's the point of being able to avoid their fire, then? That's like saying... Look, I get what you mean, and I'm not happy about the ability to turret so easily in SC either but it is what it is right now, and without the ability to change course/heading so fast then you'll just be reduced to dust by the mousers.

 

[Voivod]

Is there a video of this? I really want to see it.

There must be. I've done it and had it done to me numerous times while playing Elite.
You've really never seen someone maneuver to avoid fire in Elite?

Wait, are you saying that outmaneuvering your opponent is pointless because even though they can't hit you, they can still have you in their field of view?

Ok let me rephrase/break it down:
The point of dogfighting is keeping someone in your sights so you can shoot them down.
Imho, when you're talking about out-maneuvering your opponent in dogfight terms, you mean having him in your sight more than he has you... so that you can shoot them down before they do.
Included in the experience is the fact that you maneuver around to avoid fire when he has you in his sight.
In ED all of the above is applicable.. in SC, maneuvering only applies to avoiding fire since you constantly have your opponent in your sight.

That's why I think maneuvering in ED is a lot more important than dodging in SC.

anyway.. bedtime.

 

[fourty6to3]

There must be. I've done it and had it done to me numerous times while playing Elite.
You've really never seen someone maneuver to avoid fire in Elite?




Ok let me rephrase/break it down:
The point of dogfighting is keeping someone in your sights so you can shoot them down.
Imho, when you're talking about out-maneuvering your opponent in dogfight terms, you mean having him in your sight more than he has you... so that you can shoot them down before they do.
Included in the experience is the fact that you maneuver around to avoid fire when he has you in his sight.
In ED all of the above is applicable.. in SC, maneuvering only applies to avoiding fire since you constantly have your opponent in your sight.

That's why I think maneuvering in ED is a lot more important than dodging in SC.

anyway.. bedtime.

I can honestly say that ever since I started playing ED in Alpha I have never seen anyone be able to consistently avoid fire with the FM. I've tried it, I've seen other people try it, but eventually I had to just accept that the combat is about raw tanking. If it can be done, I would love to see it and learn from it.

The FM for ED and SC go from one extreme to the other. I don't mind turning battles in ED. What I do mind is if there is very little I can do about someone shooting at me, and FD show no sign of even wanting to refine the FM or think of doing anything more than what they currently have. Personally, if the thrusters on your ship were powerful enough to vertically/horizontally move you faster than gimbaled/turret weapons can track you, then that's all it would take to make combat in the smaller ships more useful. Maneuvering and aim will equally have purpose and meaning, and not being able to flip 180 on a dime would keep things balanced. That's what I would like to see, anyways. Unfortunately it doesn't look like that will happen, with either game.

 

[Confucios]

Maybe I've been looking at wrong videos of SC. Can you point me to a video of space-combat in SC that you consider to be good?

Show me a video of people in AC avoiding fire without obstacles. I'm genuinely curious.

Do you have videos of people in SC avoiding fire without using cover?

I think this movie showcases some of things being debated:

Spoiler

[video=youtube;l-3I1WyOU6Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-3I1WyOU6Y[/video]

It showcases manoeuvring (both offensive & defensive), combat awareness, use of countermeasures, aiming skill to get the upper hand against other pilots. (using hotas + mfg pedals)
Notice how he uses roll+strafe to avoid damage (makes the lag pips go all over the place and even with mouse it´s very difficult to hit them, see this for example) and keeps going under or over is target to get the most wider firing option possible while maintaining it´s ship out of the opponent´s line of fire.

This 2 YouTube Channels alone have some good valuable information:
- Legacy Instructional Series (hotas)
- ManiacalGinger (m&k)

edit-typos

 

[Troels]

I can honestly say that ever since I started playing ED in Alpha I have never seen anyone be able to consistently avoid fire with the FM. I've tried it, I've seen other people try it, but eventually I had to just accept that the combat is about raw tanking. If it can be done, I would love to see it and learn from it.

The FM for ED and SC go from one extreme to the other. I don't mind turning battles in ED. What I do mind is if there is very little I can do about someone shooting at me, and FD show no sign of even wanting to refine the FM or think of doing anything more than what they currently have. Personally, if the thrusters on your ship were powerful enough to vertically/horizontally move you faster than gimbaled/turret weapons can track you, then that's all it would take to make combat in the smaller ships more useful. Maneuvering and aim will equally have purpose and meaning, and not being able to flip 180 on a dime would keep things balanced. That's what I would like to see, anyways. Unfortunately it doesn't look like that will happen, with either game.

And let's be honest here, it's not like you're the only one with this experience. With existence of shield cell banks, combat has essentially been reduced to a slugfest, with the winner being whoever carries more cell banks (although the loser can just run away most of the time) further removing it from a battle of maneuvering and piloting skills. It's not a coincidence that cell banks are probably the most complained about element of combat currently.