Is this a rip off? Or is this Frontier first encounters all over again?

Matt168

M
Slopey said:
As a side note, of all the projects I've backed on Kickstarter (SC, ED, Rift, OmniVR, Pirate 3D printer etc etc), ED is the only one which is *remotely* near the estimated timescale in that Alpha started pretty close to when it was supposed to (only a month or so out). The Rift was about 10 months out, the Omni is vapourware still, the Pirate printers are going to be 5-7 months delayed and have different specs......) etc. For my money this is going pretty much to schedule! Just look at SC - millions and millions and they don't have a multiplayer demo yet - but you can spend $15,000 on virtual space ship dollies to walk around!
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Nothing else on KickStarter has caught my attention so I know very little about how other projects run. What do these other ones do when it comes to communicating delays?

With ED, while I anticipated delays, I would have thought there would be a shifting ETA for each stage on the forum.
 

cadmonkey33

cadmonkey33
Crayfish said:
Have fun arguing with that straw man. Let me know when you want to discuss the issue I have.
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I'm reasonably sure that you're not interested in 'discussing' anything.
Contact support if you have an issue. Noone here is capable of giving you the confirmation you require.
 

Squicker

S
Crayfish said:
Unfortunately it is not true. The estimated delivery date for the £100 pledge level is January 2014 and that is now nineteen days past and we still have two phases of alpha testing to go before it can be delivered.
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The KS guidance states, "If problems come up, creators are expected to post a project update (which is emailed to all backers) explaining the situation. Sharing the story, speed bumps and all, is crucial"

It's clearly the case that if the project deliverable (the released game) is late, it's a problem in these terms. So if a pledge level reward is late, is that also a problem in these terms? This isn't a leading question, I am not clear on my view on this.

I wonder what the terms the FD signed said about this.
 

Slopey

Volunteer Moderator
Slopey
Matt168 said:
Nothing else on KickStarter has caught my attention so I know very little about how other projects run. What do these other ones do when it comes to communicating delays?

With ED, while I anticipated delays, I would have thought there would be a shifting ETA for each stage on the forum.
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They generally make a post in the comments against the KS page. Alternatively, they'll post out to all backers either via email, or link to a post against the KS updates page which only backers can see. They communicate the delays via those posts - certainly nothing as interactive as the forums here.

Granted, most of these projects are delayed as they require physical manufacturing from people with little or no experience of doing so previously, from suppliers on the other side of the planet (i.e. China), coming up against regulatory issues and required HSE approvals, so it's not surprising many of these projects become horribly delayed.

So compared with those, ED is pretty good. The only one other one which I would class as pretty good was for a power meter - estimated in Sept 2013, arrived late November 2013. Pretty good considering they had loads of tooling issues and had to swap manufacturer late in the process.
 

Chock

Chock
So it's a bit late. Honestly, what is the big deal? We know that alpha has two more stages, then it is beta, then it is go time. Yes it's likely that it'll take a few more months than that March estimate, but this is hardly a secret, and it's not exactly a life-threatening issue either, we are talking about a game for christ's sake.

I honestly think some people posting on this thread just enjoy taking the stance of being outraged by this slight delay, simply for the sake of it. Jeez, read a book, go to the pub, find a girlfriend, post a suggestion for the game, play another game whilst you wait, whatever.

I'm as keen as anyone to see what my money is going a bring forth, but there are far more important issues to get annoyed about than whether we'll get to play with a toy spaceship this month as opposed to a bit later.
 

Crayfish

Crayfish
A confirmation and an estimation are different things, I'm pretty sure we already covered that.

So I guess what you probably meant was "nobody here can give you the estimation that you'd like to see".

In that case you're probably right but who knows which Frontier Developments employees lurk on the forums. Raising the issue was the purpose of my post. I don't see any harm in doing so and it may encourage better communication in future if the message were to reach the right ears.
 

Rog

Rog
Original estimated date of March 2014.

It is currently February.

Lack of communication? Currently up to Newsletter #16 (just over two weeks ago).
Many of you have been asking us when we will be releasing the Beta.

It will be released when each phase of the Alpha has been released and we've acted on the feedback we get from it. As David mentioned in Dev Diary #10 after next week's Alpha 2.0 we still have 2 major Alpha releases to roll out before we reach the Premium Beta stage; Outfitting, Travel & Trading.

When we are happy with each phase, we will move to the next one. Don’t worry if you are still planning to join the Alpha, we will announce a Beta release date when we are getting close to the end of the Alpha phase.

Because we are staying flexible to respond to any issues that may arise in Alpha, we are not giving a specific date, but we will instead announce a Beta release date when we are getting close to the end of the Alpha phase. So don’t worry if you are still planning to join the Alpha, there is still great scope for you to have fun with the Alpha now and help us shape the game!.
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More communication: HERE, and in fact all over the forum.

The Alpha is progressing. And it looks fantastic.
Beta starts when Alpha finishes. Waiting for it myself. Fairly patiently too.
Gamma release after that.

Since the whole testing thing for a project as large and complex is organic and subject to change, what on Earth is the point of another estimated date?
  1. If it's too early, it'll be missed. Threads like this again and much wailing.
  2. If it's spot on. Then I want the person that selected it to choose my Lottery numbers.
  3. If it's too late, see point 1.
I'm not apologising for any perceived communication failings from FD, they can stand up for themselves.

It's obviously fine to have concerns, but there are no new points being raised here, so could the mega-indignant just let it go, for gods sake?
 

Matt168

M
Chock said:
So it's a bit late. Honestly, what is the big deal? We know that alpha has two more stages, then it is beta, then it is go time. Yes it's likely that it'll take a few more months than that March estimate, but this is hardly a secret, and it's not exactly a life-threatening issue either, we are talking about a game for christ's sake.
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It isn't a big deal, but it would be nice to reset my expectations on the basis of what someone from Frontier thinks is a reasonable ETA. You say a few more months, another poster said 30 days. I wouldn't be upset if it took another six months, as long as someone felt able to stick their neck out and say so even if that new guess suffered further delays. I'm not even worried about the cause of delays as I have no doubt they are for the benefit of the final release.
 

DD_Crash

DD_Crash
Matt168 said:
You say a few more months, another poster said 30 days.
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Nobody knows. END. Even FD havnt got an accurate estimate. I am waiting for the 2nd round Beta so I would like them to get there soon ;) However it HAS to be done correctly. I pre ordered a combet flight sim called Il-2 Cliffs of Dover. That was released FAR to early because the publisher told them to and boy was it panned. Google Cliffs of Dover for more info.
 

Crayfish

Crayfish
Rog said:
Lack of communication? Currently up to Newsletter #16 (just over two weeks ago).
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That is better communication than I remembered and a good enough explanation for the current delay when compared to other Kickstarter projects.

Rog said:
Since the whole testing thing for a project as large and complex is organic and subject to change, what on Earth is the point of another estimated date?
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If we extend that line of thinking logically then what was the point of the original estimated date? The purpose of estimated delivery dates on Kickstarter projects are to make project owners somewhat accountable to their backers. If they post updates explaining delays (and the one above is good enough for a few weeks) then that is them being accountable and all is well.

Rog said:
It's obviously fine to have concerns, but there are no new points being raised here, so could the mega-indignant just let it go, for gods sake?
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I don't think people are as indignant as you believe them to be, except maybe the OP and I'm not sure he was being entirely serious.
 

Juniper

Juniper
DD_Crash said:
Nobody knows. END. Even FD havnt got an accurate estimate.
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FD will have an estimate in-house. Sir Braben goes to Developer A and says "how long till you get feature X implemented?", he is not going to turn around and say "when it is done". Won't happen. Instead, he'll give a broadside estimate, with timescales as there may be Developer B waiting on feature X so he can finish / integrate feature Y. That's basically how it works in team development.

The question is should FD communicate that information to backers or not. My view is yes (other views are available).

Right now though, you can see they are chasing their tails a bit with alpha, with crashes still on-going and alpha 2.2 (whilst much improved & fixes many things) also introduces some new bugs. Be surprised if there isn't an alpha 2.3 and 2.4 as well before we get out of alpha 2.x phase. Then there's 3.x and 4.x (at least) to go before we get into beta.

Make a brew... ;)
 

Chock

Chock
Juniper said:
Sir Braben goes to Developer A and says "how long till you get feature X implemented?"
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Developer A: Look Dave, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over. I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission. And I want to help you.
 
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Dejay

Dejay
I think the word "estimate" has become a dirty word and also isn't very clear. Is an estimated date like a promise? Or more like a guess? Should you apologize if your estimate doesn't turn out to be right? Is estimation influenced by wishful thinking? Would that be especially morally reprehensible? Should there be legal consequences for missing an estimate? Like for example, if WE have to wait 2 more months on the release of beta/gamma/final should the developers be put through the same ordeal and be banned from playing with ED for 2 months and may not do anything else than hang around and post silly stuff in the forum? These are certainly questions we need answers to.

For all those reasons, I propose the word "estimate" should be automatically censored on the forum just like words like "******" and "*********" or the ever favorite "**** if I know". To avoid confusion, it should also be retroactively be censored. I'm gonna start now.

Until we find a better word for "*******" I propose we settle for "guesstimate", that basically means all of the above or alternatively nothing. It would enable the developer to freely talk about release dates without any inhibitions whatsoever. Finally we'll be able to get the answer we all want to hear: "I guesstimate the final release will be next week". Hurray!

But I think it should also be half censored, like "*****timate".
 

Rog

Rog
Chock said:
Developer A: Look Dave, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over. I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission. And I want to help you.
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05f0a958.png


Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.
 

Theodrid

Theodrid
re.

No accurate date can be given by FD, best summed up by an extract from a speech by Donald Rumsfeld :-

"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns; that is to say, there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns – there are things we do not know we don't know."
—United States Secretary of Defence, Donald Rumsfeld

Let me break that down in game development terms :-

"there are known knowns; there are things we know that we know."

We have discovered some issues & bugs in Alpha and are doing our best to fix them, but each fix can cause further problems, (see below)

"There are known unknowns; that is to say, there are things that we now know we don't know."

Like how many bugs our bug fixes will create, future stuff that may be buggy form Alpha experience thus causing delays in progress from Alpha 2-3, 3-4, 4-Beta 1 etc

"But there are also unknown unknowns – there are things we do not know we don't know."

The things we haven't tested yet, such as travel and trading, busier instances, who knows what bugs, bug fixes, new bugs these will bring up.
 
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