Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[Jockey79]

Even better point than what I was trying to make, I do have to ask.. was he detail scanning everything? I tend to get methodical in systems.. and so wish Asteroid belts were counted... And yeah.. for my runs when I was in the scout.. I limped back in cracked canopy hoping I didn't have a blow out before I could dock.

Yes he was, that is why my out bound trip to Sag A* was 4 play sessions (about 18 hours total time) and his was weeks either way.
He has this weird OCD thing going on, jump in, advanced space horn.... 80 items not explored..... <- He cannot leave, no matter how much he wants to leave, he cannot.
It's not uncommon for some explorers to spend 6 hours or more in some cases, in 1 system scanning everything - and without an "earth type" the whole system is worth maybe 5,000 - 10,000 credits.

I got 20,000 credits for killing and eagle in a Hi-RES just before I set off.... it took 15 seconds. I had a station 30Ls from me (and yes, that is Ls not Ly) and the eagle came to me when I jumped in.
So less effort, less risk, more reward.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Well, who takes more risks than explorers?

No stations near by for repairs, unknown systems where you are taking heat damage before you even finish jumping in, constant wear on subsystems - and all for the lowest paid career in Elite: Dangerous.
And to quantify that, a friend of mine went out to Sagittarius A* and back, scanned everything both ways - picked up less than 2 million for weeks of work.

Traders can earn that in 30 minutes or less,
Miners in a few hours depending where they mine.
Bounty Hunters, 2 hours or less in a semi good RES,
Pirates are hit / miss depending where they are or who they see.

All of the above are near stations and can get repairs if they end up on life support.
25 minutes of life support is no good to an explorer, depending how far out they are 25 days of life support can be pointless.

People love to spout "risk / reward" for traders and pirates - but people ignore the highest of risks with the least rewards, exploration.

Umm exploration is not that risky. Low paying maybe, but not risky by any means. As long as you don't get careless and panic, you're never in any real danger.

 

[Mouse]

Yes he was, that is why my out bound trip to Sag A* was 4 play sessions (about 18 hours total time) and his was weeks either way.
He has this weird OCD thing going on, jump in, advanced space horn.... 80 items not explored..... <- He cannot leave, no matter how much he wants to leave, he cannot.
It's not uncommon for some explorers to spend 6 hours or more in some cases, in 1 system scanning everything - and without an "earth type" the whole system is worth maybe 5,000 - 10,000 credits.

I got 20,000 credits for killing and eagle in a Hi-RES just before I set off.... it took 15 seconds. I had a station 30Ls from me (and yes, that is Ls not Ly) and the eagle came to me when I jumped in.
So less effort, less risk, more reward.

*Has a sheepish look* He's not the only one like that.. IF I'm exploring.. I will complete a sector no matter how many objects in it.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…
And to quantify that, a friend of mine went out to Sagittarius A* and back, scanned everything both ways - picked up less than 2 million for weeks of work.
…

A CMDR that travels to Sag. A* and comes back with only 2 Mcr. has done something terribly wrong if that CMDR wanted to make a profit. I made 124,640,368 cr - and I didn't scan everything, I just scanned a lot of neutron stars (never again btw).
And I came back with 98% hull - around 1000 ly out I had a security drop from SC because I flew to close to a brown dwarf while reading the forum. Stopped reading the forum while being close to any object and no danger at all.

The problem is, that an explorer will lose weeks of play-time if the ship gets destroyed. The most dangerous part of the journey are the few hundred ly inside the bubble.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Pirates HAVE to be fighters to be pirates....right? So what's the difference between killing people that are causing them issues...and carefully disabling a trader and weakening their hatch...a much touchier operation...requiring a lot more expertise than blasting serial killers.

Now the more cynical player in me says it's just about marketing and persuasion...regardless of what the pirates REALLY do.

I forgot to answer this. A Pirate loadout is completely different from a pure pvp loadout. It's built for a different purpose, carrying cargo and disabling weak trade ships, not carrying shield cells and punching through shield cell spam.

The playstyle is also different, piracy is more about subiety, persuasion, and bluster.Bounty hunting, shock and awe, letting your guns do the talking, and being able to back up anything they say.

 

[ianw]

I keep hearing the "risk vs Reward" issue about open vs solo/groups, but I want to ask. What about those of us who do a job, but have risk that others don't? I did the Bacon City CG and busted my butt on it. Thing is.. I will receive the same reward everyone else gets, but is that fair? I'm aligned to a power, I was in hostile territory and I was interdicted and attacked countless times by NPC's that were against my power and tried to keep me from getting to the station. I had to pay a lot in damages incurred during my evasive maneuvers.


I should get a higher reward than those who were not pledged to a power or suffered damage because of the risk of doing a CG in hostile territory.


If that sounds silly than understand that it is the same argument used by some to justify open getting special treatment. The risk is the same.. a risk of choice. FDev gives you a goal, how you get to that goal is up to you, but doing it harder than other ways does not, nor should it, incur a higher reward. Your reward was accomplishing the goal in your own way.


I took the risk on myself.. so in truth the answer is no.. I do not deserve "extra" reward vs others because of how I completed my runs for the CG and neither should people for completing things in Open.

If they were to do some kind of risk based thing they'd have to come up with some kind of formula based on activity - it's got nothing to do with mode.

It would be ridiculously complicated.

 

[Khelder]

I keep hearing the "risk vs Reward" issue about open vs solo/groups, but I want to ask. What about those of us who do a job, but have risk that others don't? I did the Bacon City CG and busted my butt on it. Thing is.. I will receive the same reward everyone else gets, but is that fair? I'm aligned to a power, I was in hostile territory and I was interdicted and attacked countless times by NPC's that were against my power and tried to keep me from getting to the station. I had to pay a lot in damages incurred during my evasive maneuvers.

I should get a higher reward than those who were not pledged to a power or suffered damage because of the risk of doing a CG in hostile territory.

If that sounds silly than understand that it is the same argument used by some to justify open getting special treatment. The risk is the same.. a risk of choice. FDev gives you a goal, how you get to that goal is up to you, but doing it harder than other ways does not, nor should it, incur a higher reward. Your reward was accomplishing the goal in your own way.

I took the risk on myself.. so in truth the answer is no.. I do not deserve "extra" reward vs others because of how I completed my runs for the CG and neither should people for completing things in Open.

NPC risk is a baseline for everyone. If you choose to take on additional in-game risk (pledging to a power, for example), then that is part of the game. Modes are essentially an out-of-game choice that prevents the possibility of an additional risk which may be faced by other modes. Suggesting that Open players should just play in Solo to even the field (because it's just a choice after all) is pretty much the same as suggesting that Solo players should just play in Open to even the field.

Well, who takes more risks than explorers?

How do profession risks relate at all to the topic of this thread?

However, if you take the example of an explorer. They take on risk because of their choice of profession and probably don't get rewarded all that well for it. But explorers who play in Open still face an additional potential risk.

 

[Jockey79]

Umm exploration is not that risky. Low paying maybe, but not risky by any means. As long as you don't get careless and panic, you're never in any real danger.

I've been kicked out of SC before the Hyperspace jump animation has even finished and taken 2% on everything.
This has happened more than once.
Drop in points far too close to the star and wear and tear on modules that cannot be avoided or fixed any time soon has much more risk for next to nothing on the reward scale.

Way more danger when exploring, than picking on Type 6 or Type 7 haulers with a combat ship and only 3 minutes from somewhere to dock.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…But explorers who play in Open still face an additional potential risk.

The theoretical, hypothetical risk of meeting a hostile CMDR. Easy to minimize close to almost zero.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

But explorers who play in Open still face an additional potential risk.

Considering that when out exploring I only see unclaimed system all the Time where nobody has been before that additional potential risk is as high as meeting a Unicorn in real life.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

I've been kicked out of SC before the Hyperspace jump animation has even finished and taken 2% on everything.
This has happened more than once.
Drop in points far too close to the star and wear and tear on modules that cannot be avoided or fixed any time soon has much more risk for next to nothing on the reward scale.

Some basic awareness and knowledge can completely negate the risk. If you start to over heat badly, drop out of sc and then turn off every module except fsd, life support and thrusters, if you still overheat after that use a heatsink. If you get caught between binary stars, do the same but jump to a new system.

Way more danger when exploring, than picking on Type 6 or Type 7 haulers with a combat ship and only 3 minutes from somewhere to dock.

I didn't imply any different, however more dangerous than piracy doesn't mean it's dangerous. Piracy is pretty riskfree, as long as you don't get brave and shoot back at the bounty hunters.

 

[Jockey79]

They take on risk because of their choice of profession and probably don't get rewarded all that well for it.

Yes, we all have risks due to our choices.

Yet, why is no one in this thread calling for explorers to have "incentives" to play in open?
Why is no one asking for explorers in open, to get more rewards than explorers in solo?

This whole topic is focused around people wanting to shoot at traders doing PP or CGs who don't want PvP and the related risk/rewards.

Other professions have risks / rewards, yet they don't moan half as much - why is that?

 

[Jockey79]

Some basic awareness and knowledge can completely negate the risk.

You're just choosing to ignore what I'm saying.

I have taken (more than once) heat damage and been kicked back to normal space - BEFORE, the Hyperspace animation, let go of my controls.

No control of my ship
No visuals of what was going on as the Hyperspace jump was still on screen

Just the audio, going "Heat Damage".

When everything syncs back up, I'm in normal space, with 2% to hull and all modules.
"Basic awareness" does not help when your taking damage while still in the jump sequence between stars, jumping to a system no one else has been to before (so no system info)

That is like you taking 2% damage, before you try to tether someone - just for looking at them.
Also not helpful when you drop in between 2 stars and take damage from both. Nothing you can do about that either, just take the damage and try to get out before you're cooked.

Way more unknown risks than choosing to pick on someone who cannot fight back - yet explorers are not asking for more to play open, why?

 

[Mouse]

NPC risk is a baseline for everyone. If you choose to take on additional in-game risk (pledging to a power, for example), then that is part of the game. Modes are essentially an out-of-game choice that prevents the possibility of an additional risk which may be faced by other modes. Suggesting that Open players should just play in Solo to even the field (because it's just a choice after all) is pretty much the same as suggesting that Solo players should just play in Open to even the field.



How do profession risks relate at all to the topic of this thread?

However, if you take the example of an explorer. They take on risk because of their choice of profession and probably don't get rewarded all that well for it. But explorers who play in Open still face an additional potential risk.

I fully disagree.. Modes are essentially ingame when choice is concerned. To try and say the choices made in the game are inconsequential to the choice of mode to play in is false. It is seriously no different than the choice on choosing a PP power or not to. You choose PVP expecting a certain type of experience then expect more reward for it.. no, your reward is PVP.

I never Suggested that open players should just play in solo to even the field, I said you made your choice just as I did and do NOT deserve some "special" reward for your choice.


Profession risks relate because if "risk" is so horrible in open that they need special treatment and rewards than the risks everyone takes need a looking at and taken into account, kind of like what Ianw suggested.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

You're just choosing to ignore what I'm saying.

I have taken (more than once) heat damage and been kicked back to normal space - BEFORE, the Hyperspace animation, let go of my controls.

No control of my ship
No visuals of what was going on as the Hyperspace jump was still on screen

Just the audio, going "Heat Damage".

When everything syncs back up, I'm in normal space, with 2% to hull and all modules.
"Basic awareness" does not help when your taking damage while still in the jump sequence between stars, jumping to a system no one else has been to before (so no system info)

Sounds like a bug or desync issue, not typical of standard exploration. As such it's irrelevant of the risk discussion. Perhaps you should report it.

 

[Jockey79]

Sounds like a bug or desync issue, not typical of standard exploration. As such it's irrelevant of the risk discussion. Perhaps you should report it.

See here, how I'm fuel scooping?

I didn't choose to scoop there, that is where I landed when I jumped in to the system.
The top star was the jump in point, the lower one was just in the way.

That situation you called "bug" or "desync", is one I've had a few times because of closer landings than one pictured.
I've jumped in to the "oh no" point and been kicked back to normal space so fast the hyperspace animation had not finished before it put me to the emergency drop out animation - no bug or desync, just a star getting in the way of my landing - in a damaging way.

It is a risk of the job, that a binary or more stars be clumped so close together you take damage when you drop in to the system - the only thing you can do, is take control of your ship and carry on. I had one like the picture while heading out, where I was exactly between the two stars and taking heat damage from both. All I could do was put my foot down and hope I made it.

Should the mode I'm in decide how much more that risk is worth?
As you know, people were killed while at Sag A* in open... so even exploring there is that chance isn't there. Should I get paid more for using open mode? (because I have used it this trip while heading out) and should my risks also bump up my pay?
Having a couple of stars try to toast me in the middle of nowhere - surely that risk warrants more pay?

 

[Khelder]

Yes, we all have risks due to our choices.

Yet, why is no one in this thread calling for explorers to have "incentives" to play in open?
Why is no one asking for explorers in open, to get more rewards than explorers in solo?

This whole topic is focused around people wanting to shoot at traders doing PP or CGs who don't want PvP and the related risk/rewards.

Other professions have risks / rewards, yet they don't moan half as much - why is that?

You can call for explorers to have more incentives to play in Open if you wish. I, personally, don't really want to see incentives for any mode.

One way of looking at it would be to demand incentives for Open play (or disincentives for Solo - depending on how you look at it). Another way would be the BGS split option. If the modes didn't affect the same BGS, difficulty/risk wouldn't be an issue. Another option, of course, would be to not have modes at all. But I think that would upset even more people.

I don't like any of those solutions though. If you're going to have different modes, I think it's better in the long run for them to be treated as equal even though they are not.

 

[Khelder]

I fully disagree.. Modes are essentially ingame when choice is concerned. To try and say the choices made in the game are inconsequential to the choice of mode to play in is false. It is seriously no different than the choice on choosing a PP power or not to. You choose PVP expecting a certain type of experience then expect more reward for it.. no, your reward is PVP.

Uh, no. The new CQC mode aside, in-game choices such as PP, CG, profession, cargo, ship, loadout, etc are all equally available to all modes. With the exception being wings because we can't wing with NPCs yet. The mode is what you select before the game starts. The choices made in-game all carry there associated risks. But in Open, there is the added risk of PvP engagement.

I really don't believe that your contention that PvP is it's own reward really fits for everyone who plays in Open. It's probably also fair to say that some in Open may not want special bonuses for playing in Open. They just don't want the efforts of those in Solo counting towards the Open BGS.

 

[Robert Maynard]

It's probably also fair to say that some in Open may not want special bonuses for playing in Open. They just don't want the efforts of those in Solo counting towards the Open BGS.

That may well be the case - however the fact that the single shared galaxy state (that everyone experiences and everyone affects) has been a core design feature since the outset means that every player who has bought the game did so with this feature in-place.

To buy a game on the assumption that it will be changed to suit one's personal preference would be a bit presumptuous, wouldn't you say?

 

[Jockey79]

.
I really don't believe that your contention that PvP is it's own reward really fits for everyone who plays in Open. It's probably also fair to say that some in Open may not want special bonuses for playing in Open. They just don't want the efforts of those in Solo counting towards the Open BGS.

If PvP isn't its own reward, then why do it? You can get social experience of ED in Mobius without the PvP or other private groups with controlled encounters - the only reason to play open is the excitement someone may want to kill you.

As for the others - they should have read up on the game before buying it - 1 BGS, all modes was the mantra from the start before any money changed hands, it was the KS sales pitch. Arguing over it after buying the game is stupid beyond belief. Where else do people buy things without reading up what it is first? Then complain about THEIR mistake afterwards?

Those are the same people KP had to put "Warning: May Contain Nuts".....

ON A PACKET OF NUTS ! (Honestly, what else did they expect to find in there, car keys for a Bentley!?)

I'n not sorry to say, I have no sympathy here for those types of people.