Griefing: Is it?

They changed crime and punishment in v1.3 as I recall by making it so that bounties could not be paid off by the offender (or at least not as easily - before the change you could clear bounties via the Pilot's Federation rep)

OK slight exaggeration on my behalf - there were some changes, yes, as part of 1.3 and some more are due at some point (galaxy wide bounties)

Did the 1.3 make much of an impact ? Frankly, not really.

It forces me to move on when I shoot a cop (by accident, honest 'guv :D) as I am not so good at combat, but for many people no difference.

Whilst on the subject I would like to see safe systems safe - low profits but the likelyhood of being interdicted by a pirate / murderer is low. Police everywhere including at times the Navy too. In non-safe systems ... wow ... make sure you have your insurance ready.
 
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OK slight exaggeration on my behalf - there were some changes, yes, as part of 1.3 and some more are due at some point (galaxy wide bounties)

Did the 1.3 make much of an impact ? Frankly, not really.

It forces me to move on when I shoot a cop (by accident, honest 'guv :D) as I am not so good at combat, but for many people no difference.
While I generally agree that the attempts to rebalance crime and punishment have been a little limp to date, I think we all just have to be patient with FD and try to work with them on that score. Review their changes and provide constructive feedback on how we think they could do better, IMO there have been some good suggestions in recent threads but we will have to wait and see which changes FD decide to implement and when.
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My personal favourite is adding the rebuy cost of victims to murderers' rebuy costs - an "I Yensch, You Yensch" type solution (c/f Farscape TV series - see episode of that name to get what I mean).
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There have been other more extreme suggestions that would probably work to minimise griefing but at the end of the day the only thing that will truly stop the more abhorrent behaviours is administrative intervention - e.g. shadow banning on being reported and found guilty.
 
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Suggestions have been made from day 1. FD do what they do and in time they will get it right. (Sound / flight model is spot on so eventually the rest will catch up)

an "I Yensch, You Yensch" type solution (c/f Farscape TV series - see episode of that name to get what I mean).

+Rep solely for bringing up a very enjoyable SCI-FI series.
 
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There needs to be a sticky with this on main pages, it's brilliant.

Thank you good sir. It's a Corvus Dove original, feel free to copy, paste, reuse on any website of an anything ever where people scream "griefer" when the real problem is that they didn't get spanked enough as children.
 
Thank you good sir. It's a Corvus Dove original, feel free to copy, paste, reuse on any website of an anything ever where people scream "griefer" when the real problem is that they didn't get spanked enough as children.
Personally, I think it is too pretentious - the "GROW UP" part is totally unnecessary and would be insulting to anyone who considered it applied to them.
 

Achilles7

Banned
I'll stop you there.

Although it doesn't apply entirely to this case, I'll take inspiration from a famous quote of Mark Twain, and exit the discussion here.

I'd like to be friendly, but reading your arguments and responding to them is like deciphering code.

Have a good day :)

Firstly, phew - I need a lie down after that! - Secondly, 'deciphering code'..nice pun! - Thirdly, Mr Fang..were you speaking from a lupine perspective, or are you modelling yourself on Mr Spock? Yes we are human and we are defined by emotions!..see, now you've got me sounding like Dr McCoy! - And finally, as an "onlooker" (ref Twain), I was beginning to wonder!..and I think it does apply to this case!
 
I'm going to be brief but in a nutshell:

On morality, I agree with Gluttony Fang. I have long held the view that morality is not an intrinsic universal law, and have also learned not to talk about that view much as people tend to become very upset and defensive about it and assume that the unreality of morality as a universal law somehow devalues things like kindness. It doesn't. While I believe morality to be relative, rather like a concept of magnetic north that breaks down once you leave this planet, I also believe kindness and amiability to be the human being's (and other animals) default state. It is when a being has been perverted from this default state (by trauma of some kind) that cruelty manifests.

Discussion on morality tend to become knee-jerk very quickly, even if eloquent. Many people just don't like to come to terms with nihilistic reality. Often the term nihilism is associated with an utter abandonment of care and responsibility, as does the term anarchy. This is not the case. While I cannot support the idea of an intrinsic "right" and "wrong" (who says?) I behave in life very "morally".

The Tao Te Jing is a very good read, which iterates again and again the perils of applying arbitrary judgement on things.

So - griefing in Elite Dangerous...

In life, if a person griefs another, or let's say for the sake of argument decides (perhaps unconsciously, as a result of being perverted from their default state of kind amiability by something) that it makes them happy to cause others harm, other people tend to do something about it. Let's say for the sake of argument that this was in a strange faraway land that no-one has discovered where there are no laws at all, a true anarchy where everyone is a true nihilist, non dualist being. Someone decides that they like to eat babies, plucked from the arms of the mother. They find it fun. It makes them happy to see the distress that they cause. They are strong, and the parents of these unfortunate babies are seldom able to fight them off - they usually die trying. Very soon in this lawless land, people will decide that this will not do, it disturbs their happiness too much. They will gang up and kill that person. This happens all over the world where authorities do not act well enough btw.

The unreality of morality does not mean the unreality of consequences.

In Elite "Dangerous" this isn't happening. It's a game, the consequences of actions are just not real enough, don't touch us enough (quite rightly, it is a leisure pursuit after all). So some noob got griefed. Shame, but hey. 1000 noobs got griefed, oh that's terrible, but hey. The actual harm done is the rebuy screen. No actual blood, no actual death, no actual mourning family. No one to want revenge.

Instead of asking for more consequences from FDev, we could accept the hard reality of an uncaring universe and do what people do in the world - gang up, and get revenge. It's not "morally right", it's not pretty. It's a choice, same as any other, and it comes with it's own consequences. Like in life, revenge leads to a cycle of consequences.

Revenge isn't the only response of course. A griefer may get off on the attention.

My two cents worth

Edit: Despite my philosophical agreement with Gluttony Fang, I just re-read OP's original post. I also agree with him. Judements, while not having an intrinsic universal truth about them, are also a part of what we (and other animals) do. It's a part of our make up to judge things - bananas are a "good" food, dung is a "bad' food :D. The mistake is in thinking those judgements mean anything beyond the practicalities of nutritious or foul tasting stuff to eat. But yeah, a true griefer intent on repeatedly killing players with no RP, no goal other than to cause grief DOES blow hard. As do sociopaths and narcissists in RL. It's empty, inane - that's not a value judgement btw.
 
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I'm going to be brief but in a nutshell:

On morality, I agree with Gluttony Fang. I have long held the view that morality is not an intrinsic universal law, and have also learned not to talk about that view much as people tend to become very upset and defensive about it and assume that the unreality of morality as a universal law somehow devalues things like kindness. It doesn't. While I believe morality to be relative, rather like a concept of magnetic north that breaks down once you leave this planet, I also believe kindness and amiability to be the human being's (and other animals) default state. It is when a being has been perverted from this default state (by trauma of some kind) that cruelty manifests.

Discussion on morality tend to become knee-jerk very quickly, even if eloquent. Many people just don't like to come to terms with nihilistic reality. Often the term nihilism is associated with an utter abandonment of care and responsibility, as does the term anarchy. This is not the case. While I cannot support the idea of an intrinsic "right" and "wrong" (who says?) I behave in life very "morally".

The Tao Te Jing is a very good read, which iterates again and again the perils of applying arbitrary judgement on things.

So - griefing in Elite Dangerous...

In life, if a person griefs another, or let's say for the sake of argument decides (perhaps unconsciously, as a result of being perverted from their default state of kind amiability by something) that it makes them happy to cause others harm, other people tend to do something about it. Let's say for the sake of argument that this was in a strange faraway land that no-one has discovered where there are no laws at all, a true anarchy where everyone is a true nihilist, non dualist being. Someone decides that they like to eat babies, plucked from the arms of the mother. They find it fun. It makes them happy to see the distress that they cause. They are strong, and the parents of these unfortunate babies are seldom able to fight them off - they usually die trying. Very soon in this lawless land, people will decide that this will not do, it disturbs their happiness too much. They will gang up and kill that person. This happens all over the world where authorities do not act well enough btw.

The unreality of morality does not mean the unreality of consequences.

In Elite "Dangerous" this isn't happening. It's a game, the consequences of actions are just not real enough, don't touch us enough (quite rightly, it is a leisure pursuit after all). So some noob got griefed. Shame, but hey. 1000 noobs got griefed, oh that's terrible, but hey. The actual harm done is the rebuy screen. No actual blood, no actual death, no actual mourning family. No one to want revenge.

Instead of asking for more consequences from FDev, we could accept the hard reality of an uncaring universe and do what people do in the world - gang up, and get revenge. It's not "morally right", it's not pretty. It's a choice, same as any other, and it comes with it's own consequences. Like in life, revenge leads to a cycle of consequences.

Revenge isn't the only response of course. A griefer may get off on the attention.

My two cents worth

Spot on mate.....the only thing i see getting hurt is peoples pride...and yes it would be annoying to get griefed as the kids on the street call it these days..
we used to call it terrorising someone lol......

and if one gets real emotional over what is essentially a load of pixels on screen that our brain conveys into the game that we see,then it may be time to stop playing for a wee bit....

surely if a griefer feels safe because he is behind his keyboard,then a non griefer should feel the same.......there is a barrier between us....its not a physical world

you dont get that saftey net in the real world
 
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Griefing is a pattern of behaviour...
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I think the key note point here is that murder penalties are too light and FD seems to agree on this point, thus if anyone is expecting the current situation with light penalties for murder to persist they will most likely get a nasty wake up call.
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Note though that they said no intention of "preventing" murder, but the implication about increasing penalties for it is that they intend to "discourage" it through game mechanics.
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As for the OP's usage of the term "griefer", it may actually be an appropriate use of the term if the murderer is camping at Hutton and killing people BEFORE they can dock... It is an exceptional case there since the journey to Hutton is an unusually long one (well over an hour) and there are plenty of alternate opportunities to attack people closer to the entry point of the system. It is spiteful in the extreme to do what is being described. However, under normal circumstances where the journey to the station is measurable in minutes or seconds the situation would be considered at worst ganking.
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The potential for station camping was one of the things that really put me off initially looking at ED and the rules surrounding it probably need to be tightened as well. We have strict docking zone loitering rules and there should probably be station loitering rules for the no-fire zones as well. Employing such rules would probably further lessen the risks of station camping with the intent to grief/gank players. Blockades can still be operated but that would require blockaders to interdict players en route which is a much more reasonable way to engage in such activities.

While I agree with the corrections that you've made concerning griefing, exploiting and murder, I can't with your interpretation of griefing.

Griefing is not a pattern of behaviour. It is the attempt by one player to cause another player grief. That seems simple doesn't it?

But then why do so many people make the mistake of assuming that because they feel grief that their attacker intended them to feel grief? Have some of us gained the ability to look into the mind of our attackers? We might feel that we understand the entire context of a situation and come to what we think is a logical conclusion, but it still an assumption based on no evidence that the attacker intended grief. If the attacker is playing the game within the rules (i.e As the earlier quote from Mr Brookes states, murder is allowed), then unless there is clear evidence that his intention was to cause grief there is nothing to complain about. Unless the attacker sends a message saying "I hope you are sat in front of your computer crying", but then this type of behaviour is already covered in the EULA.

So this is why I get frustrated when time and again we have players that have had their commanders murdered come to the forum and start throwing the word "griefer" around and demanding changes to the game, in-spite of Mr Brookes himself saying that murder is an accepted part of game play.

I'd also disagree that FD want to discourage murder. The crime update encourages criminal acts if anything, by making the crimes local to the system as opposed to global as they used to be. They could better balance the punishment, but it's highly unlikely they want to actually discourage crime game play.
 
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wow you two certainly make for a brilliant read
comparing real life beating of women to elite dangerous and its problems?...

it is a computer game...it is not real....people in multiplayer will act out there fantasies and be a monster...just like in a good old single player game......its meant to be a escape.

Exactly... we can choose to "play" whatever role we feel like playing... good.. bad.. or indifferent... that's the beauty of it.
 
Instead of asking for more consequences from FDev, we could accept the hard reality of an uncaring universe and do what people do in the world - gang up, and get revenge. It's not "morally right", it's not pretty. It's a choice, same as any other, and it comes with it's own consequences. Like in life, revenge leads to a cycle of consequences.

Revenge isn't the only response of course. A griefer may get off on the attention.

Couldn't agree more...

I just don't understand why, after several months of people talking about this topic, why haven't folks banned together to accomplish this?

To get organized, not for a full frontal war, but for a unified "defense"...

Is my group the only group in the game, along with the Fuel Rats, that is willing to drop everything and go help, not only our members and allies, but anyone period that asks for help and not ask for anything in return?

Granted we aren't always available and might not be close but if we are, my commanders simply want to have more excitement in the game, so whenever possible we'll be there!

Every time I bring this up it seems to be "overlooked" as if nobody really wants to do anything about it... If that's true, fine... but Paladin Consortium will still be here if you ever want a fleet of combat capable pilots to come fight by your side.

http://inara.cz/wing/286
 
Couldn't agree more...

I just don't understand why, after several months of people talking about this topic, why haven't folks banned together to accomplish this?

To get organized, not for a full frontal war, but for a unified "defense"...

Is my group the only group in the game, along with the Fuel Rats, that is willing to drop everything and go help, not only our members and allies, but anyone period that asks for help and not ask for anything in return?

Granted we aren't always available and might not be close but if we are, my commanders simply want to have more excitement in the game, so whenever possible we'll be there!

Every time I bring this up it seems to be "overlooked" as if nobody really wants to do anything about it... If that's true, fine... but Paladin Consortium will still be here if you ever want a fleet of combat capable pilots to come fight by your side.

http://inara.cz/wing/286

Yep, I've seen quite a few groups who do this. It's all good.

Equally though, a stance of no response, no validation is another way to deal with attention-seeking behaviour.
 
Yep, I've seen quite a few groups who do this. It's all good.

Equally though, a stance of no response, no validation is another way to deal with attention-seeking behaviour.

I agree completely.. and people absolutely have that right to do that...

For members of my group, our choice is that we would rather spend a few hours doing something constructive as a collective unit as opposed to the usual "grind" of whatever it is we would all normally be doing...
 
I just don't understand why, after several months of people talking about this topic, why haven't folks banned together to accomplish this?

Apparently it's easier for some people to make sanctimonious posts about real-life morals than to keep it in-game and respond in-game.

But I'm pleased to see that there are a growing number of players, like yourself, who are stepping up and making the galaxy dangerous for us criminals too :)
 
Punishments should be harsher.

I'm not sure how humans became such an intelligent space-faring species all the while descending into bloodthirsty anarchy with no consequences for murder.
 
Apparently it's easier for some people to make sanctimonious posts about real-life morals than to keep it in-game and respond in-game.

But I'm pleased to see that there are a growing number of players, like yourself, who are stepping up and making the galaxy dangerous for us criminals too :)

Yep, it's all good gaming. But I think OP is talking about griefing, not criminal gameplay styles.
 
Apparently it's easier for some people to make sanctimonious posts about real-life morals than to keep it in-game and respond in-game.

But I'm pleased to see that there are a growing number of players, like yourself, who are stepping up and making the galaxy dangerous for us criminals too :)

Because we shouldn't have to.

The galaxy is already dangerous for small-fry. What we're asking is, why is Elite: "Dangerous" only dangerous for them? Should Elite: "Dangerous" not already be "dangerous" for criminals?
 
Punishments should be harsher.

I'm not sure how humans became such an intelligent space-faring species all the while descending into bloodthirsty anarchy with no consequences for murder.

Definitely!

But within reason; they shouldn't be punitive to the point where no-one commits any crime.
Punishment should be meaningful, but also allow for player groups to pick up the slack and play vigilantes and posses :)
 
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