Griefing: Is it?

[Soliluna]

I always struggle to accept a post that questions the "real life" morality of a player in a game.

Not everyone plays games with the same mind-set, for some it is what it is, a game with PVP. The game allows this and accepts this. There is no reason to question their morals.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Definitely!

But within reason; they shouldn't be punitive to the point where no-one commits any crime.
Punishment should be meaningful, but also allow for player groups to pick up the slack and play vigilantes and posses

Maybe if the punishments for destroying ships were as meaningful as the losses for the pilot of the destroyed ships then there'd be fewer complaints....

 

[Buglet]

I always struggle to accept a post that questions the "real life" morality of a player in a game.

Not everyone plays games with the same mind-set, for some it is what it is, a game with PVP. The game allows this and accepts this. There is no reason to question their morals.

If a player plays a game in a way so to cause grief/aggravation to other players I have every reason to question their morals.

 

[BigPappa]

Apparently it's easier for some people to make sanctimonious posts about real-life morals than to keep it in-game and respond in-game.

But I'm pleased to see that there are a growing number of players, like yourself, who are stepping up and making the galaxy dangerous for us criminals too

Ha Ha... that's right... honestly just trying to make the galaxy more "fun" for myself and my group... and you.

 

[lenna]

Maybe if the punishments for destroying ships were as meaningful as the losses for the pilot of the destroyed ships then there'd be fewer complaints....

+Rep if I could - have a cookie instead
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This is the essence of what I would like to see in terms of change.

 

[BigPappa]

+Rep if I could - have a cookie instead
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This is the essence of what I would like to see in terms of change.

How about we attempt to affect change ourselves rather than wait for some some lines of code to be written to do it for us?

Just a thought...

 

[Marra Morgan]

Maybe if the punishments for destroying ships were as meaningful as the losses for the pilot of the destroyed ships then there'd be fewer complaints....

Maybe. As I said, I agree with more meaningful consequences for criminals.

I just don't think that it should completely be about NPC-enforced punishment. I would much rather face justice at the hands of another player than some NPC.
I would at least know that another player enjoyed the fight and satisfaction of taking me down and collecting my silly little bounty

 

[Robert Maynard]

How about we attempt to affect change ourselves rather than wait for some some lines of code to be written to do it for us?

Just a thought...

Not everyone is playing the game to become a part-time law enforcement officer - or, put differently, some players just don't enjoy PvP, so suggesting that they band together to take care of miscreants would be asking them to play in a different way than they want to.

 

[Nara]

If a player plays a game in a way so to cause grief/aggravation to other players I have every reason to question their morals.

If... IF..

When FD know that a player is playing to aggravate others, then FD punish them with out of game consequences. It takes actual evidence for FD to reach this decision. Questioning their moral afterwards is rather pointless as they are gone.

I have a real problem when people start questioning the morals of people that FD have not proven to be actual griefers.

 

[lenna]

Griefing is not a pattern of behaviour. It is the attempt by one player to cause another player grief. That seems simple doesn't it?

You ultimately missed the point, griefing is a pattern of behaviour that leads to causing grief on other players. There is not one single activity or pattern of activities that can be labelled unilaterally as griefing, thus in a general sense griefing is a pattern of behaviour. One incident on it's own may or may not constitute griefing but normally there is a series of incidents and thus a pattern there of. Where true griefing is concerned, IME such people are habitual and normally do not just do it to one individual therefore there is another case for applying the general definition of a pattern of behaviour.
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Text messages are not a pre-requisite of griefing, if text messages are involved then it could actually be considered harassment depending on their nature. Griefing in the most basic sense generally involves using valid game mechanics to effectively halt the progression of other players normally in an aggressive and targeted way - some claim such behaviour is "teaching" something but I think it teaches nothing more than the aggressor in question is a bag.
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In a general sense parallels can be drawn between Griefing and DOS attacks.

 

[CorvusDove]

Not everyone is playing the game to become a part-time law enforcement officer - or, put differently, some players just don't enjoy PvP, so suggesting that they band together to take care of miscreants would be asking them to play in a different way than they want to.

The solution is to hire someone else to do it. The thing is, you can't hire PCs, because that turns into a bounty abuse system. A "top bounties" tracker is helpful and will get people who do like PvP to go hunting, but I think part of the issue is really that the person who was attacked feels victimized and without recourse. Whether that's a sign of weakness or not is a different debate (it is and I shoot people for it). What would help is if they could pay an NPC faction to go handle the problem for them; say, 5-10 million minus the bounty on the target. This would actually enhance gameplay for pirates, too, as now they'd have NPC bounty hunters they had to deal with, and a PvP fit is not necessarily a PvE fit.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Punishments should be harsher.

I'm not sure how humans became such an intelligent space-faring species all the while descending into bloodthirsty anarchy with no consequences for murder.

I'd imagine the same way it happened during the renaissance, with piracy being rampant there too. Space, even more than the oceans, is gigantic. It's hard to police it even under the best circumstances, or at least that's what I feel FDs intentions were.

 

[CorvusDove]

If a player plays a game in a way so to cause grief/aggravation to other players I have every reason to question their morals.

I think people whose morals really need calling into question won't care if you're questioning them. They will probably actually find it entertaining.

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Punishments should be harsher.


I'm not sure how humans became such an intelligent space-faring species all the while descending into bloodthirsty anarchy with no consequences for murder.

I'd imagine the same way it happened during the renaissance, with piracy being rampant there too. Space, even more than the oceans, is gigantic. It's hard to police it even under the best circumstances, or at least that's what I feel FDs intentions were.

Let's go that extra mile; humans have never left bloodthirsty anarchy and murder. They've just done a good job of creating a buffer between those that benefit from the murder and those who don't to make us think differently. Example: Being butthurt over a video game while children are being forcefed parts of their own parents in warlord-run territories. Warlords using weapons purchased from 1st-World countries (i.e. places where we now play video games) during the Cold War.

 

[Marra Morgan]

The solution is to hire someone else to do it.

Yes, this.
I've noticed a few threads on this forum where fighter-escorts are being offered - Alice Margatroid's Recon group or BigPappa's wing, for example.

It gives the victim protection, or a sense of recourse and justice; the vigilante the kind of gameplay they want; and the criminal must fight for their life!

For Open players, this is the sort of player interaction that it's all about, no?

 

[Nara]

You ultimately missed the point, griefing is a pattern of behaviour that leads to causing grief on other players. There is not one single activity or pattern of activities that can be labelled unilaterally as griefing, thus in a general sense griefing is a pattern of behaviour. One incident on it's own may or may not constitute griefing but normally there is a series of incidents and thus a pattern there of. Where true griefing is concerned, IME such people are habitual and normally do not just do it to one individual therefore there is another case for applying the general definition of a pattern of behaviour.
---
Text messages are not a pre-requisite of griefing, if text messages are involved then it could actually be considered harassment depending on their nature. Griefing in the most basic sense generally involves using valid game mechanics to effectively halt the progression of other players normally in an aggressive and targeted way - some claim such behaviour is "teaching" something but I think it teaches nothing more than the aggressor in question is a bag.
---
In a general sense parallels can be drawn between Griefing and DOS attacks.

Ok, so griefing can include a pattern of behaviour, but you can't define the whole by a part. So I don't believe I have missed the point. Griefing is what I said it is, the intention to cause grief. If there is a pattern, I don't see the relevance to the definition. Do it once or do it many times, if FD find you guilty of intentionally causing grief the result is still the same.

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For Open players, this is the sort of player interaction that it's all about, no?

I was starting to wonder if I was alone in this realisation Have some rep

 

[Soliluna]

If a player plays a game in a way so to cause grief/aggravation to other players I have every reason to question their morals.

NPC's cause players grief and aggravation when they destroy a player's ship, but we consider this 'part of the game'. For some reason, despite it clearly being a part of the galaxy's narrative and through existence clearly being accepted within the rules of the game, players paint player killing in a separate light. For some reason they expect all the players to focus entirely on the NPC's, despite that by doing so they are adding a real world caveat to the in-game narrative. They complain about not being given RP reasons when a player kills them yet separate the players and NPC's into two distinct groups which is also not "RP".

I think the malice comes from the players who don't like losing, not the players who are playing a game the way it is presented to them.

Furthermore, I think anyone who would bring their 'morality' into question, for playing a game the way it has been designed, needs to take things down a notch. If they are not enjoying the game because people are playing it the way it is intended, it is not the opposing player's fault. Suggesting that criminal behaviour could come with greater punishments is great, it's inclusive for all players; questioning the morality of individuals who play differently to you is not inclusive. I think it's abhorrent and manipulative, I think it shows a person who is victimising themselves because they do not agree with the way other players wish to play and hope that through that victimisation they can change the game to fit around their own desires.

Ultimately, I think if a player does not enjoy being killed by another player, they should avoid open, it is the game mode that they do not enjoy and they should not question the morality of the player for playing the game within it's rules.

If the player is utilising unintended game mechanics to harass someone, that's entirely different, but that's not what happened here.

 

[Nara]

NPC's cause players grief and aggravation when they destroy a player's ship, but we consider this 'part of the game'. For some reason, despite it clearly being a part of the galaxy's narrative and through existence clearly being accepted within the rules of the game, players paint player killing in a separate light. .

I'll explain why.

When an NPC kills a player, the player understands that it is impossible that the NPC intended to cause grief.
When a player kills a player, it is possible that they intended to cause grief. Due to emotion this turns into it being very likely that they intended to cause grief and the rules of the game that existed for the NPC as much as the player, lose their relevance.

 

[BigPappa]

Not everyone is playing the game to become a part-time law enforcement officer - or, put differently, some players just don't enjoy PvP, so suggesting that they band together to take care of miscreants would be asking them to play in a different way than they want to.

Totally agree...

But there are some that are willing... I'm calling out to those types of players to stand together..

And those that aren't.. cool... simply call on the folks above.. am I missing something? doesn't everybody win?

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The solution is to hire someone else to do it. The thing is, you can't hire PCs, because that turns into a bounty abuse system. A "top bounties" tracker is helpful and will get people who do like PvP to go hunting, but I think part of the issue is really that the person who was attacked feels victimized and without recourse. Whether that's a sign of weakness or not is a different debate (it is and I shoot people for it). What would help is if they could pay an NPC faction to go handle the problem for them; say, 5-10 million minus the bounty on the target. This would actually enhance gameplay for pirates, too, as now they'd have NPC bounty hunters they had to deal with, and a PvP fit is not necessarily a PvE fit.

Why do you have to pay for something that others would be more than happy to help with?

There are folks out there, including my group, that enjoy helping "good people"... I'm simply trying to call on the folks that ARE willing...

 

[Robert Maynard]

The solution is to hire someone else to do it. The thing is, you can't hire PCs, because that turns into a bounty abuse system. A "top bounties" tracker is helpful and will get people who do like PvP to go hunting, but I think part of the issue is really that the person who was attacked feels victimized and without recourse. Whether that's a sign of weakness or not is a different debate (it is and I shoot people for it). What would help is if they could pay an NPC faction to go handle the problem for them; say, 5-10 million minus the bounty on the target. This would actually enhance gameplay for pirates, too, as now they'd have NPC bounty hunters they had to deal with, and a PvP fit is not necessarily a PvE fit.

In the Criminality final proposal in the DDF there was a "Pilot's Federation Bounty" proposal:

Hello Backers!

Here is the Criminality rules set that we've agreed on, following another set of extensive debate, both in the team and on the forum. We'd like to thank everyone for their involvement! As with other topics like this it will stay here for a few days, then be moved to the archives section.

Cheers,
-Mike

Pilot Federation Bounties

• When a member of the Pilot’s Federation is attacked, they have the option of setting a Pilot’s Federation Bounty on their assailant, within a preset min and max credits for this
  • This action is time limited – they forfeit the ability to set a bounty after a set time elapses once they have entered a different session (eg through death or hyperspace)
  • Should their ship be destroyed by the assailant they have a limited amount of time from when their escape pod arrives at a dock to set the bounty
    • Launching from a dock forfeits this ability if not already set
  • The credit value of a bounty must be available in the player’s account, and is immediately deducted.
• A Pilot’s Federation Bounty can only be claimed by any member of the Pilot’s Federation
• The Pilot’s Federation Bounty system does not bypass local laws such as “Unlawful Discharge” that may be active so players need to bear this in mind
• A Pilot’s Federation Bounty is only removed if claimed by a bounty hunter or redeemed by the perpetrator
  • Redemption can only occur after a set significant time period has elapsed (eg 1 calendar week) and the perpetrator makes financial restitution of a significant multiplier of the bounty (eg 10x) to the Pilot’s Federation

If implemented, it would allow players to seek retribution on their assailant by way of imposing a bounty - once for every time they were attacked / destroyed.

 

[Soliluna]

I'll explain why.

When an NPC kills a player, the player understands that it is impossible that the NPC intended to cause grief.
When a player kills a player, it is possible that they intended to cause grief. Due to emotion this turns into it being very likely that they intended to cause grief and the rules of the game that existed for the NPC as much as the player, lose their relevance.

Essentially what that player wants then, is a game without any possible killing at all.