Elite / Frontier Hyperdrive Alternatives

Kyris said:
Piracy could be implemented through somebody disrupting hyperspace. This would mean being stuck in normal space halfway between two systems unable to jump out until your hyperdrive recharges, with a bunch of pirates attacking.
This method was used in Freelancer when you went fast between two points, and it was annoying as hell, so I would vote that down. How about the pirates attack you in hyperspace?

Why do we have to use jumpgate, every space game has this and it limits the player. If hyperspace is made in Babylon 5 way I would want every ship to have a hyperdrive that can make their own jump, this to keep with Frontiers tradition of freedom.
 
Moriarity said:
I think travelling in a multiplayer Elite is a bit of a problem. In Eve, they use jump gates that were linked to other jump gates. Travelling was instantaneous. I believe that a mp Elite 4 would have to utilize a similar system of travelling in an instant, because if two people travelled to the same system, and one took 3 days game time and another took 7 days game time, how do you sort out the time difference? (Hope that made sense)

I think E4 could handle MP without changing too drastically from what we're used to. The universe could be persistent, but relative to each player.

IIRC The Game already includes relativistic effects where travel time in hyperspace is proportional to a ship's mass. Time is subjective to any specific frame of reference, so perhaps in E4MP each player would have their own 'now', which might vary substantially between players dependent on how much time they'd lost or gained relative to eachother.

So if you're zipping about in a smaller faster craft you'll spend more time on stardreamer waiting for your mates to catch up in time and space.

If a player gains more time relative to other players they'd need to be invulnerable to interactions between their 'past' selves and those for whom less time had elapsed, to prevent paradoxes. So if player 1 loses 48 hours relative to player 2 he can intercept him in his past, but from thereon "player 2 the younger" becomes an NPC wholly independent of "player 2 the elder", ie. the real player 2, who remains unaffected. Kind of like multiverse theory, ecxept there'd be a central or distributed server running just one universe, and buffering the time delay and intervening events between the 'youngest' and 'oldest' (or earliest and latest) players.

As somebody else said recently, it might work better if Jameson has a finite lifespan, and bequeaths his fortunes to his 'successor'. Maybe you'd have to file a will with a reputable firm of intergalactic solicitors or summik when first starting each game....
 
Hi.

Sounds very complicated (to me at least!! lol :) ). I still believe that it would be easier to make all jumps instantaneous, or a very short space of real and game time. Maybe if, for instance it took a minute of real time. In that time you create your jump hole, enter hyperspace, and at your destination, an exit jump hole appears and 20 seconds later you arrive.

I think this quick jump method could have an added bonus of creating very exciting chase scenarios. Say you were hunting a pirate and he jumps. Before, if your drives/ships were different you couldnt follow because it took a different amount of time to get there. This way, fuel depending, you could chase your mark across multiple systems without loosing the trail (if you have a hyperspace cloud analyzer of course).

Cheers

Moriarity
 
Bounder said:
I think E4 could handle MP without changing too drastically from what we're used to. The universe could be persistent, but relative to each player.

IIRC The Game already includes relativistic effects where travel time in hyperspace is proportional to a ship's mass. Time is subjective to any specific frame of reference, so perhaps in E4MP each player would have their own 'now', which might vary substantially between players dependent on how much time they'd lost or gained relative to eachother.

So if you're zipping about in a smaller faster craft you'll spend more time on stardreamer waiting for your mates to catch up in time and space.

If a player gains more time relative to other players they'd need to be invulnerable to interactions between their 'past' selves and those for whom less time had elapsed, to prevent paradoxes. So if player 1 loses 48 hours relative to player 2 he can intercept him in his past, but from thereon "player 2 the younger" becomes an NPC wholly independent of "player 2 the elder", ie. the real player 2, who remains unaffected. Kind of like multiverse theory, ecxept there'd be a central or distributed server running just one universe, and buffering the time delay and intervening events between the 'youngest' and 'oldest' (or earliest and latest) players.

As somebody else said recently, it might work better if Jameson has a finite lifespan, and bequeaths his fortunes to his 'successor'. Maybe you'd have to file a will with a reputable firm of intergalactic solicitors or summik when first starting each game....

LOL and you'll explain this to the player how?
I believe the 'time travel' was proportional to the size of the hyperdrive - i.e. if the drive has a range of 7LY then to reach that maximum range would take 7 days, if the drive had a range of 14LY then the same journey would take half the time (or similar). Hence the usefulness of the Asp ship - lots of space for a nice big military drive and still room for a decent weapon.

I would agree with the MP own now, however I would leave it at that. Any interaction between your character and a change affected by another character should IMO be regulated to something like stock market changes or system political climate changes. Perhaps even major character events like honor medals for a system or major rankings to be recorded and 'shared'.

I quite enjoyed the idea of having specific 'systems' or galaxies or similar as a shared or truely interactive MP area that you don't really have to enter unless you really want to. Hyperspacing into that system you would have to 'step out' of your characters 'time' and into the MP time - I wouldn't relish the idea of having to set up a server to keep track of all of that!!!
 
Okay maybe i'm getting a little confused between time dilation and travel - but it's years since i left school...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation

I'm not sure it could be used to double back in time on another player though... you could still get an advantage over other players, but perhaps without breaking causality. Dunno.

And anyway I was wrong; Frontier's game time is apparently universal - wherever you go, the local churches always have the same time as your ship. I guess there could be all kinds of explanations for that (?), but it at least simplifies MP. The 'dedicated MP system' idea is probably better, but the important thing is that i was able to briefly impress myself with a smart-alecky rant, and I think i've made my point...
 
Bounder said:
Okay maybe i'm getting a little confused between time dilation and travel - but it's years since i left school...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation

I'm not sure it could be used to double back in time on another player though... you could still get an advantage over other players, but perhaps without breaking causality. Dunno.

And anyway I was wrong; Frontier's game time is apparently universal - wherever you go, the local churches always have the same time as your ship. I guess there could be all kinds of explanations for that (?), but it at least simplifies MP. The 'dedicated MP system' idea is probably better, but the important thing is that i was able to briefly impress myself with a smart-alecky rant, and I think i've made my point...

I always thought that the premise of the Stardreamer system in Frontier was more a kind of stasis rather than the more complex idea of time compression etc. Still the relative 'times' in MMO would be something to seriously puzzle over.
 
Steve O B Have said:
I always thought that the premise of the Stardreamer system in Frontier was more a kind of stasis rather than the more complex idea of time compression etc. Still the relative 'times' in MMO would be something to seriously puzzle over.
So... I thought that "jumps" can be more "real" - we're in future, ar'nt it? "Hyperphisyc" is used? Yea. ;) instead of "time compressing" I may propose use the "hyperphysic approach" - "time compression" have to be forgot in favor of "series of small range hyperjumps" for insystem travel - from "point of arrival" to "target" (ie planet, star, etz) we make a "short jumps" (ie several hundred or thousand miles), which leads to aim. Subjectively it will looks like "ultralight speed". Evolving this proposition possible to make next step - in such manner possible to apply for traveling in interstellar space, isn't it?

So why game need "long range hyperjump", it can be applied fo bigship, superfreighter and similars. And troubles with MP fall off in itself - big ships fly slowly ("shorter jumps", but it can carry more fuel, hence - long range flight) , fighters - faster ("larger jump range", but shorter distance in interstellar space) and "relative time" can be forgotten.

It's only opinion. Do not kick :D
 
Jerry Rezet said:
So why game need "long range hyperjump", it can be applied fo bigship, superfreighter and similars. And troubles with MP fall off in itself - big ships fly slowly ("shorter jumps", but it can carry more fuel, hence - long range flight) , fighters - faster ("larger jump range", but shorter distance in interstellar space) and "relative time" can be forgotten.

It's only opinion. Do not kick :D

LOL Warp Factor 9 Mr Sulu!!!

sulu.jpg
 
We discuss 'bout "Hyperdrive Alternatives" or something else :D ? Although my proposal "maybe wazza silly"... Rezulting game wil similar to star trek :D *gluk-gluk*... Whith one distinction - ST has a small world (how many starsystem u seen during the serial? :D )

PS from what series the frame u posted?
PPS "Beware of my inglish!!! lol"
 
Jerry Rezet said:
We discuss 'bout "Hyperdrive Alternatives" or something else :D ? Although my proposal "maybe wazza silly"... Rezulting game wil similar to star trek :D *gluk-gluk*... Whith one distinction - ST has a small world (how many starsystem u seen during the serial? :D )

PS from what series the frame u posted?
PPS "Beware of my inglish!!! lol"

Nah m8y was just adding a little humor. Your comment was entirely valid and quite reasonable. From memory the original Elite didn't rely on time constraints at all so pressing "J" for jump was an entirely plausable solution to covering large distances at great speed.

With Frontier and FFE, adding time constraints essntially added some more depth to the game and introduced something similar to a lifespan. Playing out a mission that needed to be completed by a certain date at a certain times was at times enjoyable and at other times frustrating.

A form of instantaneous travel could well have its merits of course within limitations, i.e. a linear course with proximity detection to ships, objects and planets/stars.

I have no idea of which series the ST image is from, I just thought that it was quite amusing :) and your english is just fine far better than any grasp of a second language that I have!
 
Steve O B Have said:
<sustrated> From memory the original Elite didn't rely on time constraints at all so pressing "J" for jump was an entirely plausable solution to covering large distances at great speed.

With Frontier and FFE, adding time constraints essntially added some more depth to the game and introduced something similar to a lifespan. <skipped too>

A form of instantaneous travel could well have its merits of course within limitations, i.e. a linear course with proximity detection to ships, objects and planets/stars.
Insystem "J"-drive, like I remember, did not uses time constraints? A linear course, i think, is not a real problem - in state of "insystem moving" ship may have "real ballistic" course - and it can be explain so manner (*saying by mortal voice* =D ) : "the gravitating masses bend the course, similar to ballistic trajectory, as if it acts on a bodies moving with ultralight speed, and the next "destination point" of "short jump" take its stand on "little wrong way" from those calculated for "linear direction"; and this "bending force" acts not on body, but on "hyperspace cource"... What 'bout similar explanation? Some roughly, but hope you understood me. :rolleyes:

Steve O B Have said:
Playing out a mission that needed to be completed by a certain date at a certain times was at times enjoyable and at other times frustrating.
Maybe possible to find some other kind of missions? More interesting, more similar to lifespan? I think that missions similar to "take the packet, boy, and #$%^ away from point A to point B! Schnell, schnell schweinne!!!", is not similar to life - I'd better become a trader than enlisting to Federal army like an errand-boy (& I suppose - not only me), am I right? =D

Steve O B Have said:
I have no idea of which series the ST image is from,
Well nail up with it :D There are seems this series was did not come to us :D Think that it be in "Horror" genre - "Captain Archer throttle the crew!!! Save your souls, who still alive!!!" ......faint.. drop the curtain.. final credits... :lol: =D
 
Umm...

O.K.

I'm sorry. I've been reading for some time and could'nt help but join to rejoin..
:p

Its an interesting discussion..... time dilation as a function of relativistic mass where either T,E or C is a variable (take your pick) etc… good concept, though misses the point somewhat I feel.
If you are genuinely interested a better question by far is ‘what is time?’ really…

the known answer never fails to astound.
But…

What are the implications of this discussion, if, for example, Mr Braben ever bothers to read the comments herein?

Isn’t what we are really discussing the legitimate mechanism by which fast travel can be represented to the average (and hopefully future) player? <Notation<lowest common denominator – i.e. Monkey – factor>/Notation>

The answer, I feel can partake of one of only two sides.
A realistic mechanism is answerable only to the observer where the observer is one of many or where the observable is subjective (as an individual).
In other words the participants must all be subject to the same ‘sense’ of time, despite their locations or status, as opposed to the possibility that participants (as individually subjective observers) will not be subject to the same continua – equating to the concept that reality is differential according to the status of the observer.

So....
What we are really discussing here is the legitimate means by which a disparate subjective universe may be presented to multiple individual entities with opposing differential viewpoints without either destroying the overall concept of 'singular universe' or 'relativistic universe'...

An interesting conundrum without doubt.

Answers on the back of a baked trout to the above address please.

:D :D :D
 
I've recently been postulating the nature of time, tho i secretly think god did it, because jesus loves us.

The 'many different nows' problem would seem to be one of buffering - the question then might be how big a disparity might develop between the earllest and latest player timelines, which in turn depends on how many Air Miles players clock up relative to eachother.

Each player's game could be buffering its own timeline, such that interactions between players are dependent on their clocks synchronising in a given place and time - no different to how we already make appointments.

This still means a central server needs to update with each timeline at each log on. Another problem is limiting the buffer size - over time it could get quite big...
 
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Hyperdrive is farevar

Posts 'bout some "relativistic, Nature Of The Time, chronophysics etz..." is not valid as applied to game. Game, imho, can have a physical concept that can simplify work of proggers and make the most fan the life of gamers:D . I think, the game need to be some fantastic in some views. And some "realistic features" but hard to realise (& sometimes hard to imagine how it can be realise!) must be cruely cutted. Imho. The future can be not similar to the present, isn't it? Who know - what technologies will be discovered in far far time later?
 
No your'e quite right. In the future all races and beings will set their clocks to GMT, in recognition of the undeniable fact that London is clearly the very centre of the universe. I hope in Elite 4 it will be exactly the same time everywhere, simultaneously, the correct time, the only right time, Lundun Time, East End style, innit.

Britannia will rule again!!
 
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Bounder said:
No your'e quite right. In the future all races and beings will set their clocks to GMT, in recognition of the undeniable fact that London is clearly the very centre of the universe. I hope in Elite 4 it will be exactly the same time everywhere, simultaneously, the correct time, the only right time, Lundun Time, East End style, innit.

Britannia will rule again!!

LOL - like hell it will :) time will all be based in New Zealand since that is where the sun first rises :)

I would suggest time is set to zero as and when the game servers become live, and then a player plays according to that time scale - pfffft GMT :p
 
I believe that a mp Elite 4 would have to utilize a similar system of travelling in an instant, because if two people travelled to the same system, and one took 3 days game time and another took 7 days game time, how do you sort out the time difference? (Hope that made sense)
...and it's unavoidable.
PO:C&T: Foreword (Rich Backer) said:
The Combat & Tactics book is a compromise that adds some detail to combat - not to make it more realistic, but to make combat more believable.
What i really like in FFE - despite few rather obvious shortcomings, it has refreshing believability in many aspects. Once i even estimated combat range of ~1MW laser - and really, it should not be more than few kilometers.
Let's sum up dependences...
1) Particular kind of interstellar transportation stands behind the Elite setting as such and especially First Encounters setting: uninterrupted FTL movement or much more predicable hyperjump would allow fleets to travel together, instead of arriving alone (to meet swarms based in target system). Which would lead to regular fleet vs. fleet battles, combat ship class diversification, and would change tactics, strategy, politics, economics and general appearance of in-game universe to the degree where it barely compatible with Elite spirit.
"Series of short intrasystem jumps" would allow to avoid contacts with agressive opponents easier than continual travel.
2) In single player only there's no need of real-time (or synchronization). Hence "game time acceleration" is possible or it can just report "passed 3 days, jump finished". Which is done in FFE.
As Moriarity already wrote, if multiplayer is assumed at least as an option, unified real-time or easy synchronization is required, hence both hyperjump and intrasystem travel must be relatively quick. Which is original Elite style (by lucky coincidence, or ..?).

► Therefore, if it's Elite and not strict single-player, we'll have more or less old Elite warp-physics: relatively quick Hyperjump with precision of +-6 AU in best cases and intrasystem travel with "spatial lens", j-drive (SPEC-drive by VegaStrike terminology). I preferred "SPEC", since it points to the same, but says something... and there's possibilities of other "lens-like" warpware (e.g. what about temporary expanding effective laser aperture diameter to 100 m with proportional maximum range of fire exchange? Or even "merely" having such [radio-]telescope?).
Piece of "believability": SPEC can even be made up fully compatible with law of conservation of momentum! :) Just consider it multiplying effective (from external PoV) acceleration after activation via proportional temporary decrease of mass (from external PoV) in working volume (if needed, rotation can be theologized off ;)).
This limitation can be sometimes violated, if alternative method is awkward and/or unreliable enough to remain exotic.

► However, such kinds of drives leaves very broad limits, and here can be even more specific features than with FFE long-time mechanics (like Hyperspace Cloud Analyzer).
For example, SPECs are susceptible to "mass-lock" by inert objects and "warp-lock" by other such devices' fields (otherwise combat would be either impossible or very strange). But then here could be more susceptible and less susceptible types of drives. And with different "compression ratio".
Of course, even small difference in such parameters can severely affect chase and intercept situations (and thus define tactics). Ship with greater effective acceleration (KSPEC x Fdrive / Mship) can run away from one with inferior acceleration, but not if SPEC is already locked...

3) TONS of fuel for fusion / fission reactor gives IMMENSE energy, and not only it has to be somehow used for jump, but if it will be used with efficiency noticeably less than 1.0 (though still utterly non-believable) it makes lots of heat, etc.
When hyperjump takes days (FFE) problem is not so great, but we can assume that even for "instant" hyperjump...
► ...drive have great, but limited power - it can spend fuel with some limited rate (preparation time for jump is proportional to fuel requirement for jump). Again, certain values can vary for different types of drive...
Preparation time means some vulnerability (ship cannot jump from combat at will), which can be augmented - e.g. with requirement to move inertially (shut off thrusters) while drive "digs" its hyperspace cloud.

BTW, if there's power source like FFE Military Drives, it would be funny to have electronuclear "afterburner" (turning Radioactives to Alloys) as "slow" power source (for intrasystem travel, weapons, etc).
You buy a fighter ship fitted with interplanetary drive and full of weapons, then pay for a ticket to an anarchist system
Well, there's two ways.
Limitation to discontinual and inaccurate jump as such does not requires warpdrive to travel with ship. Therefore, "hyperjump catapult" is healthy option. Even 1-use hyper-catapult for ejecting escape capsule really far could be allowed (with appropriate size, mass and cost, of course). :rolleyes:
On the other hand, large bulk carrier can carry small ships. E.g. pack of interceptors - again, without hyperdrives.
What do you think about gameplay if ships (the cheaper ones) are sold with interplanetary drive and the hyperdrives are much more expensive than the ones in Frontier/FFE?
I think it's sensible option, if there will be some in-system source of revenue (i mean, resolvable without electron microscope).
 
I thought it would be interesting to see what people thought of some different ways to travel.


Examples given :
1. Elite : hyperdrives with jump range. Travel anywhere but time will pass.
2. Star Wars : use of Hyperspace. Travel anywhere but time will pass.
3. Star trek : warp drives (warp coil). Travel anywhere but time will pass.
4. Dune : gravity drive. Travel anywhere, spicy but I remember no clues about passing time or instant travel.
5. Stargate : hyperdrive in space. Travel anywhere but time will pass.
6. Babylon 5 : use of Hyperspace. Travel anywhere but time will pass.
7. Contact : use of wormhole. Travel a fixed place in fraction of a second.

What do the named examples have in common. It’s games and/or films. The one and only scriptmakers problem : story/action needed (= earning money). Requiers : ships travelling vast portions of space. Named solutions : see above.

Reading was fun :)
I cannot help keeping in mind all solutions were made up by, I told you, the storymakers. Ideas from wormhole to hyperspace are just that : visual cortex stimulation. Ideas bent to the extend of being usable to implement in the game/film to let ships be able to travel, write the story and earn a buck. Not much unlike why we, in the apelike appearance of our ancestors, needed the concept of time.
A game thus can really have a physical concept that can simplify work of the makers. But then again it might not.

So in Elite4 we can end up using gates like in World of Warcraft where people make use of the implemented “instances”.
But, being at the mercy of the makers of Elite4 (=Frontier Developments), we could end up with a standard clocktime like GMT or one based in New Zealand or any other standard as well. Instances were accepted by players. Now one question might be : in Elite4, will a ‘galaxy standard time’ be accepted by players. In the case of a ‘galaxy standard time’, just trying to read the bottom of my coffeecup, many players may want to turn away from Elite4. Reason : They will have to take into their calculations, for example, to jump 3 or 4 days earlier than their other guildmates in order to be on time for their appointment with their raidinggroup.

Back to the topic : what is my opinion of different ways of traveling (the galaxy).
I am convinced in any future game or in any future movie a solution for spacetravel will serve the purpose of enabling players to group and being eyecandy as well. The solution, maybe, being founded on our ‘present-day’ ideas, these ideas being defined in what we now-a-days call laws of physics or perhaps maybe not founded on today's-reality-based-ideas. Bottomline : Frontier Developments will not be able to please everyone with chosen way of travel. And that will hamper the flow of buck :D


Blood.
 
Now one question might be : in Elite4, will a ‘galaxy standard time’ be accepted by players. In the case of a ‘galaxy standard time’, just trying to read the bottom of my coffeecup, many players may want to turn away from Elite4. Reason : They will have to take into their calculations, for example, to jump 3 or 4 days earlier than their other guildmates in order to be on time for their appointment with their raidinggroup.
This can also be be "Unified system time" set per star. Then they can use system's time. Of course, if there's some method to automatically convert one system's time to another. Of course, ship's navigation system should take time difference into account, in order to allow routes planning.
Anyway, such rendezvous would suffer more from common Elite's feature: indeterminacy of jump exit point. :)
 
This can also be be "Unified system time" set per star. ... Of course, ship's navigation system should take time difference into account, in order to allow routes planning.

True. But imho not very userfriendly.
A misjump would certainly make for some interesting tactics and for some frustrating gameplay too I think :). That is to say : if the game can enforce attackers to play the accepted mission(s). Your raidinggroup being complete or not.

And : for long runs, I would really like to see a shower on-board.
After all. We are simple gamers, not classified autronauts :D

Blood.
 
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