Speculation or fact?

You wouldn't say what? Did you quote me incorrectly?

All I said was Star Citizen is definitely confirmed as having FPS.

I wouldn't say that the CryEngine Star Citizen uses is better suited for FPS type gameplay than what Frontier can do, judging from the trailer for the outsider :) Plus PG opens up new possibilities to have more freedom to destroy stuff, which is always frowned upon by game developers of hand crafted content.
 
Can you play tetris in it? No.
Can you get out of your ship and kick a badger? No
Can you grow veg on a moon? No
Can you play a game of FIFA football in it? No.

Can you fly a space ship in a space sim kind of way? YES.

An open ended Space Sim, Yes. A do what the heck you like game, No.

elite is not a sim its a game, its open ended if I want to go explore I can, if I want to follow the story line I can if I want to just trade I can if I want to just float in space I can, this is what is meant by open ended sorry if you do not understand the meaning.
 
Can you play tetris in it? No.
Can you get out of your ship and kick a badger? No
Can you grow veg on a moon? No
Can you play a game of FIFA football in it? No.

Can you fly a space ship in a space sim kind of way? YES.

An open ended Space Sim, Yes. A do what the heck you like game, No.

Can you play tetris in it? There might be licencing issues, but maybe you could, though I'd expect there to be more interesting things to do.

Can you get out of your ship and kick a badger? Not on initial release, but with the planned expansions potentially you could, provide that badgers exist on a planet somewhere.

Can you grow veg on a moon? Eventually maybe, who knows what future expansions will bring.

Can you game of FIFA football in it? Same argument as tetris :D
 
Can you play tetris in it? No.
Can you get out of your ship and kick a badger? No
Can you grow veg on a moon? No
Can you play a game of FIFA football in it? No.

Can you fly a space ship in a space sim kind of way? YES.

An open ended Space Sim, Yes. A do what the heck you like game, No.

Yes, that is more or less how I see it too.
There is of course a lot of freedom in for example Frontier, but freedom to do what?
Well the answer must be of course... the freedom to play a spacesim. Nothing else. That is what the game is. That is its identity.

FD will not succeed and surely not try to recreate real life with all its facets in Elite Dangerous either.
Even if fps is implemented it will be there in the context and servitude of the greater spacesim. I feel only then it has a chance of succeeding. There will grow a very rich game out of the early Elite roots, but if FD will try to make this game everything then it will surely fail. They need to focus on what it really is, because it can never be everything. And it doesn't have to be.
 
elite is not a sim its a game, its open ended if I want to go explore I can, if I want to follow the story line I can if I want to just trade I can if I want to just float in space I can, this is what is meant by open ended sorry if you do not understand the meaning.

Yes but how do you go about it?
How are you allowed to use that freedom?
By obeying the rules of its spacesim core.

It is an open ended space sim :).
It is not an emulation of freedom.

I do agree that ED will have to offer us a lot more than the original. But I feel its core is still the same. I also think that it has to be like that to avoid the game disintegrating into all kinds of half- gaming mechanisms that most likely will only detract from its potential.

FPS can be part of that I think, but only after the space sim part is fully realized.
 
Yes but how do you go about it?
How are you allowed to use that freedom?
By obeying the rules of its spacesim core.


well most games are linear or have a set path to follow elite and has always been you can go wherever you want however you want, for example you want to travel to the end of the map, or you want to take a close up of a nearby star, maybe you want to attack a space station and become a fugitive, that is total freedom and that my friend is what I mean by open ended.
 
well most games are linear or have a set path to follow elite and has always been you can go wherever you want however you want, for example you want to travel to the end of the map, or you want to take a close up of a nearby star, maybe you want to attack a space station and become a fugitive, that is total freedom and that my friend is what I mean by open ended.

In the Elite games you would still operate withing the necessarily limited rule set of the game's spacesim core. That is in fact what you are describing.
You only might perceive that limited rule set as total freedom because you have already adapted your own definition of total freedom to the rules that confine you.
It is not total freedom at all. It is in fact very limited.

I can give you an example. My biggest gripe with my beloved Frontier game was that at a certain moment I had earned millions, but had no way to do anything with that money. I owned a well armed Panther Clipper and had mastered piloting it well enough that it had become an invulnerable fortress. I could fly everywhere and kill pirates en masse and earn even more money. But it did not feel like total freedom at all. I felt very confined within the rules of the spacesim.

Elite Dangerous will of course expand on that limited freedom of the original. And when it succeeds in implementing FPA in a successful way that will be a tremendous achievement to push back the walls that limit the players freedom. But with pushing back the walls there always will be new limitations to the players freedom. And with implementing FPA you might even feel these limitations much stronger in a huge simulated environment like this. What you can do in it will always be limited. There will never be total freedom.

My fear is that when FD forgets about the true space sim core of Elite that they might drown in all the options they are presented with. The game might become an inconsistent and incoherent monster because of it, suffocating under it's own weight.

That is why I feel they should focus on what the game truly is and everything that is added to that core should be there to serve that core.

To give an example: When they want to implement FPA I feel they should first add spacewalking because that lies very close to the core of the game. They can go on from there and build on that.

If they want to ad base building then they should again first focus on the space sim core and implement basebuilding that serves that core. Being a spaceship pilot you would want to store your ship(s), you would want to have defenses, a personal room, machines that generate oxygen, storage rooms for weapons and ammo, machinery to do some repairs and maintenance, etc. etc.
They should not waste resources on implementing farming on planets for example. It is too far removed from the spacesim core of the game.
And who would want to run a farm in a game that was designed to travel, trade and fight between the stars? There are enough farm simulators already. And this really is not the game for stuff like that.


Forgive me for writing an essay :).
 
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I understand what you are saying and I agree, every type of game is limited, what I mean by total freedom is by in what you the spacesim core, alot of game as you know you can't do through a certain door, or go a certain way they are always linear, since I was a kid I was always finding out the limitations of games always wondering what was through that door etc, elite for me allows me to go to the far reaches of the back and beyond for me this is total freedom, but I think for a game to not be limited by its core as you say would have to be multi genre but they would still be limited just not as limited.

I don't think any game can be truly open, maybe in 10 years or so perhaps, I like what you wrote it is very through provoking.
 

filip

Banned
Narrow focus of games became outdated since Half Life 2 where you could enter a vehicle and drive around.
 
Narrow focus of games became outdated since Half Life 2 where you could enter a vehicle and drive around.

That is saying very little.
Half Life 2 still had a very narrow focus. Yes you could drive 'around' in circles or follow the linear path. Mind you, I am not dissing Half Life 2. It is one of my all time favorites.

What I am trying to say is that games need focus, because they cannot recreate life itself. If they try their limits become even more painfully obvious. Every game has its facades, its curtains you are not supposed to look behind.
I would love it if FD succeeds in combining a first rate shooter with a first rate space sim, but the scope of the Elite universe means that you will necessarily bump into the limits of it.

For example as far as the game world is concerned I would be perfectly happy if you would not be able to enter completely realized cities if they can not be created in a convincing fashion, with a convincing population and interesting stuff to do. Because what otherwise would be the use of such cities and what would be the point of having them. You would immediately be confronted by the limitations in a very disturbing and immersion breaking way.

One of the best open cityworlds ever created is Liberty City in GTA IV (I am still waiting for GTA V on PC :) ). The detail of that city is staggering and never seizes to amaze me. To this very day I play GTA IV several times a week just to enjoy that wonderful open world. Nevertheless the limitations are clear. The AI, although great fun, has only a very limited amount of options. What you can do in the city is very limited also and the freedom of the game really is just an illusion that breaks down almost immediately when you think about it.
Nevertheless at the moment there is no other game that offers such a large and meticulously detailed beautiful city simulation.

Imagine what would happen in Elite D. if their cities offered even less to do, a more limited AI, a less convincing population, even less interiors etc. It would be incredibly boring and immersion destroying.

I think that it would be much better for the player if he understood from the beginning that there would be no open cities like that in Elite D. You would land your ship at the space port and get access to a limited but reasonable area (compare Mass Effect series). The explanation for this would be that on heavily populated worlds pilots are not allowed to fly around at will. They would be directed to certain spaceports only. This is a severe limitation, but it would prevent a player from wandering around lifeless cookie cutter cities that have nothing to offer whatsoever anyway. I feel such limitations would be best for creating a solid immersive experience.

This is just a very specific example, but the same goes for creating fps shooter mechanics. To do this FD would in fact have to create a game within a game. Creating a good shooter is an art in itself. You need to balance weapons, they need to feel right, look good, have interesting mechanics etc. then there are things like player physics, interaction with the environment, cover mechanics etc. etc. etc.
In a massive open environment like elite's FD cannot resort to create some second rate fps mechanics. It has to be excellent, otherwise it would only become a source of irritation every player would loathe and it would drag down the entire game. So adding this will necessarily require considerable resources.

So that is why I feel that FD should choose its battles wisely and not try to recreate life in its entirety in Elite D. They need to make some painful, but smart choices to make this an awesome game. Trying to do it all will more than likely break the game.

In short: Limitations are good.
 
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Kettle

K
Half life 2 is very limited within each linear zones and narrowed in itself since it isn't an open world compare to GTA III IV V, Just Cause & Far Cry 2+3 etc.

It is a fact, not a speculation.
 
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How about leaving DB to make these decisions? Its his vision after all and he has some experience with the gaming industry.

We can of course suggest things, if it fits and can be done then it goes in, indeed in one interview, I think it was with Scott Manley DB mentions being able in future to create our own space stations by attaching it to an asteroid.

If anyone has missed this video its actually a must see:

http://youtu.be/s6tahRbkaq8

We'll have the ability to walk around ships, land on planets and many other things are very likely to occur over the course of the future. Exciting times are coming, which are imho going to change the industry, especially as we see just how many games over the past decade fell short...Again, imho :)
 
Elite: Dangerous is not going to be built to conform to any of our ideas. The goal is to realize David Braben's concept of an adventure game based in space, focusing on the adventures of a single pilot who interacts with other pilots and NPCs. If a gameplay aspect can give depth to the game within those parameters then I'm sure FD will consider adding it to the game.

A lot of backers are behind this game for sentimental reasons. Elite and the Frontier games were milestones and treasured memories of their youth - I include myself in this demographic. However that is no reason to set artificial limits on what the game can become.

To begin with ED will very much be Elite on steroids and not much more, but the scope for development is endless and as long as it is rolled out gradually with due care to quality of gameplay I can't see why the two promised major expansions for planetary landings/activity and avatar rather than ship-based activity could be negatives.

The only areas where I would not like to see the game taken are those to do with corporate empire building, as IMHO that is truly outside DB's vision, but as far as single-player features go my mantra is:

"If Han Solo ever did it, then it's good enough for ED"
 
NO!!! We need to set our sights higher and support the Devs to reach the vision of open space, open planet, open city, open doors and not accept today that it just can't be done in a fun way for this game.

I am very comfortable we will all be in awe of what Frontier make before end of 2016. It is happening with a lot of other folks working on it already. Check out CityScape building a city and driving cars and a helicopter in it within 3 minutes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrqm9qK_Mlo) also City Engine and Houdini for Unity (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDrALvAqsaI).

David Braben is a man with a plan and he is working the plan. He makes measured and reasonable statements and judging by the Alpha releases everything he has said is reasonable and will likely be realized.

I personally think the main issue will be doing procedural city generation on a large scale with speed. Of course, this comment is not to trivialize any part of adding this to Elite Dangerous.

Obviously this is a game and our technology is limited, so the cities and planets will not be exactly "realistic" simulations with trillions of individuals to discuss galactic politics and the weather with. Audio is the biggest limitation. I totally accept that. However, it doesn't mean planets and cities cannot be really nicely procedurally generated and add significantly to the game while also moving the goalposts for the entire gaming industry. I really hope for is no Locked Doors. Several PG engines have already shown this is possible to a large degree if not entirely on smaller game maps. That is way cool!

Regarding FPS mechanics, Frontier is very capable of FPS combat (watch The Outsider videos on their YouTube channel). The Cobra development engine is now visibly showing its teeth in handling large gaming areas, buildings, combat and docking inside massive space stations with no loading screens. Support for Occulus Rift is already in place starting last year- wow that! Frontier know what they are doing and they are doing it well so far. They have done FPS before. They will add it to Elite Dangerous. All the space-station and ship FPS mechanics will flow straight down to the surface and city buildings on planets.

Would anyone want to explore every building in even a small city in real life? It might take years and would be just as pointless in real life as in a game. So it will be impossible to explore an entire huge city just like it will be impossible to explore the full game galaxy. That doesn't mean Frontier should not create it and that it won't be great.

I expect we may see a single PG created open world with PG cities before Frontier releases a galaxy full. But only time will tell.

That is saying very little.
Half Life 2 still had a very narrow focus. Yes you could drive 'around' in circles or follow the linear path. Mind you, I am not dissing Half Life 2. It is one of my all time favorites.

What I am trying to say is that games need focus, because they cannot recreate life itself. If they try their limits become even more painfully obvious. Every game has its facades, its curtains you are not supposed to look behind.
I would love it if FD succeeds in combining a first rate shooter with a first rate space sim, but the scope of the Elite universe means that you will necessarily bump into the limits of it.

For example as far as the game world is concerned I would be perfectly happy if you would not be able to enter completely realized cities if they can not be created in a convincing fashion, with a convincing population and interesting stuff to do. Because what otherwise would be the use of such cities and what would be the point of having them. You would immediately be confronted by the limitations in a very disturbing and immersion breaking way.

One of the best open cityworlds ever created is Liberty City in GTA IV (I am still waiting for GTA V on PC :) ). The detail of that city is staggering and never seizes to amaze me. To this very day I play GTA IV several times a week just to enjoy that wonderful open world. Nevertheless the limitations are clear. The AI, although great fun, has only a very limited amount of options. What you can do in the city is very limited also and the freedom of the game really is just an illusion that breaks down almost immediately when you think about it.
Nevertheless at the moment there is no other game that offers such a large and meticulously detailed beautiful city simulation.

Imagine what would happen in Elite D. if their cities offered even less to do, a more limited AI, a less convincing population, even less interiors etc. It would be incredibly boring and immersion destroying.

I think that it would be much better for the player if he understood from the beginning that there would be no open cities like that in Elite D. You would land your ship at the space port and get access to a limited but reasonable area. The explanation for this would be that on heavily populated worlds pilots are not allowed to fly around at will. They would be directed to certain spaceports only. This is a severe limitation, but it would prevent a player from wandering around lifeless cookie cutter cities that have nothing to offer whatsoever anyway. I feel such limitations would be best for creating a solid immersive experience.

This is just a very specific example, but the same goes for creating fps shooter mechanics. To do this FD would in fact have to create a game within a game. Creating a good shooter is an art in itself. You need to balance weapons, they need to feel right, look good, have interesting mechanics etc. then there are things like player physics, interaction with the environment, cover mechanics etc. etc. etc.
In a massive open environment like elite's FD cannot resort to create some second rate fps mechanics. It has to be excellent, otherwise it would only become a source of irritation every player would loathe and it would drag down the entire game. So adding this will necessarily require considerable resources.

So that is why I feel that FD should choose its battles wisely and not try to recreate life in its entirety in Elite D. They need to make some painful, but smart choices to make this an awesome game. Trying to do it all will more than likely break the game.

In short: Limitations are good.
 
If anyone has missed this video its actually a must see:

http://youtu.be/s6tahRbkaq8

Not to derail but that interview is bloody rubbish. There were any number of times where there was a great opportunity for Manley to get DB to expand on a point he's made then he goes off twittering on about something largely unrelated even annoyingly making reference to SC quite a bit. In the interview Manley says he's a KS backer he doesn't know very much about the game from that interview. He went on about how much of a fan he was of DB and how he was a hero to him it then cringed when he clearly didn't know an awful lot about the game...surely as a KS backer he's reading the DDF archives at least?

Irritating interview. It just doesn't sell the game to me watching Manley goof about clumsily interviewing the man.
 
FPS will come - ED is show casing the Cobra engine. What better way than to have a signature game which seamlessly demonstrates multiple game forms.
 
NO!!! We need to set our sights higher and support the Devs to reach the vision of open space, open planet, open city, open doors and not accept today that it just can't be done in a fun way for this game.

I am very comfortable we will all be in awe of what Frontier make before end of 2016. It is happening with a lot of other folks working on it already. Check out CityScape building a city and driving cars and a helicopter in it within 3 minutes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrqm9qK_Mlo) also City Engine and Houdini for Unity (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDrALvAqsaI).

David Braben is a man with a plan and he is working the plan. He makes measured and reasonable statements and judging by the Alpha releases everything he has said is reasonable and will likely be realized.

I personally think the main issue will be doing procedural city generation on a large scale with speed. Of course, this comment is not to trivialize any part of adding this to Elite Dangerous.

Obviously this is a game and our technology is limited, so the cities and planets will not be exactly "realistic" simulations with trillions of individuals to discuss galactic politics and the weather with. Audio is the biggest limitation. I totally accept that. However, it doesn't mean planets and cities cannot be really nicely procedurally generated and add significantly to the game while also moving the goalposts for the entire gaming industry. I really hope for is no Locked Doors. Several PG engines have already shown this is possible to a large degree if not entirely on smaller game maps. That is way cool!

Regarding FPS mechanics, Frontier is very capable of FPS combat (watch The Outsider videos on their YouTube channel). The Cobra development engine is now visibly showing its teeth in handling large gaming areas, buildings, combat and docking inside massive space stations with no loading screens. Support for Occulus Rift is already in place starting last year- wow that! Frontier know what they are doing and they are doing it well so far. They have done FPS before. They will add it to Elite Dangerous. All the space-station and ship FPS mechanics will flow straight down to the surface and city buildings on planets.

Would anyone want to explore every building in even a small city in real life? It might take years and would be just as pointless in real life as in a game. So it will be impossible to explore an entire huge city just like it will be impossible to explore the full game galaxy. That doesn't mean Frontier should not create it and that it won't be great.

I expect we may see a single PG created open world with PG cities before Frontier releases a galaxy full. But only time will tell.

Great post.
I don't need to explore every building ....hell its boring enough in Elder Scrolls games when there is nothing to do in 90% of the buildings you can enter.

But I would be estatic if they could pull of something like what Mass Effect did with its Citadel or Omega in those games. A small area of shops and an environment with a nice size scope where you feel like you're in a real place.

If they could procedurally generate something like that and mix and match parts to give a range of space stations and city areas to look around, it would be epic!
 
I am of the opinion that I would like to get out of the ship and occasionally shoot people in the face.

I'm not saying that E: D should suddenly become a FPS like Quake or whatever, that's silly. Something akin to Deus Ex would IMO be a perfect match (i.e. you have options).

End of the day if you completely remove all FP combat then what is there to do when FP?
Walk places, look at stuff, watch your cargo being loaded...These aren't interesting IMO . I may walk somewhere occasionally just for the novelty or watch my cargo being loaded like once or twice. Why would people who haven't yet bought the expansion and FD want to buy the expansion, buy the expansion if it's so boring. As other people have said it's like the part of X rebirth that everyone hates, do you think people are going to buy that?

IMO FP game play in elite should encompass the same design as the ship game play, lots and lots of options and interesting things to do, one of them being combat as it opens up a metric ton of game play opportunities
 
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