Accidental Wanted due to imbecile NPC pilots crossing my fire....

[Rampant]

Yes I would feel some amount of responsibility in the given scenario - of course I would. Just as I would feel some responsibility if a motorcyclist ploughed into me head-on, even though I knew it was not my fault and that there was nothing I could've done about it. There's some serious soul-searching in that scenario, BUT, short of not getting into a car and driving it, ultimately the responsibility lies with the biker who saw the danger and chose to risk that overtake.

Similar as something that happened to me in game. I'm in a Cobra taking out the last few % of an Anaconda's hull. Gimballed beams and multi cannons continuous fire. 4 pips to Wpn, 2 to Sys. Anacondas is FA off spinning to face me. My throttle at about 10%. No pitch or roll inputs required to keep on target. Range 700 metres and closing slowly. Few seconds to go before he has firing solution on me. Field of fire clear. His shields are about to regenerate. I notice a hauler fly past me in my peripheral vision. Slightly divergent from my firing line. Other vessels are beginning to overtake now trying to get a slice of this Wanted Anaconda. Field of fire still clear, though, I have total SA. Hauler is safe (provided he maintains that divergent course). Split second decision to keep firing or those Anaconda fixed weapons will clobber me. I still have total SA. I *know* that Hauler has seen constant beam laser fire and definitely will not turn into it. Hauler makes a fast turn into the line of fire. Too late. Release trigger. Beams off. Cannon shells impact. Wanted to the massive sum of 200 Cr. Everybody now turns on me instead of Anaconda that they have been targeting. Despite the fact they were engaged with him at the time. And still facing him. He has 0 shields with 2 seconds or so to regenerate and 4% hull. I have maybe 20% shield and 78% hull. 174,000Cr kill opportunitydead ahead, versus large turn to engage a 200 Cr target.

Something does not add up with this mechanic.

Cheerz

Mark H

 

[jay3141592]

Defending the game dynamic here strikes me as confusing. It's not a reasonable approach if I immerse myself; and from a non-immersive perspective, the player gets blamed for the poor turret AI that Elite implements. (And which are much worse shots than the turrets on the NPC ships ...) And, yes, NPCs flying into firing beam lasers is imbecile.

If it forces me to take a 7 minute break during playing, that's a massive impact to the fun I have. (Oh wait - it makes for more grind, so it's actually a feature.) It doesn't make sense to have my ship on the kill list for 100 Cr either, in no lore, while I have a few hundred thousand Cr in bounties in my favor and am allied with the faction. This is not consistent on *any* level; game-play, implementation, or lore.

Make it a fine directly. Make it a 5% deduction in bounties to the faction. But do not enforce a time-out. Time-outs mean I'm going to close the game and come back to it later.

 

[excalibus]

Thanks for the kind words. You must be the first to actually acknowledge my viewpoint, for which you deserve some rep...

If I may, I would like to develop the motorcyclist analogy a little. What if the biker that takes a bend badly, ending up on the wrong side of the road? And straight into the path of an oncoming car... Who is culpable? The car driver? Surely not.

Let's put that motorcyclist's defensive driving mentality into an NPC pilot. Sometimes the motorcyclist can even see the oncoming traffic on a straight piece of road, but decides to manoeuvre onto the wrong side of the road to perform an overtake. Who is culpable for the ensuing head-on collision? Holistic thinkers would place the responsibility with the biker and label the car driver who killed the biker an innocent party.

You are quite right when you say ED does not currently have "right of way" algorithms. I believe, however that, if at all possible, it *should* have at least a fair stab at incorporating some element of apportioning culpability more correctly, more wisely, and not just stick with the unintelligent sledgehammer we currently possess.

Thoughts?

Cheerz

Interesting analogy...

With regards to the ships flying... SJA has mentioned this a fair time ago... That she can make the AI so it 'avoids' your shots entirely... She can do that... but here is the rub... if she does that then ALL AI will avoid your shots... ergo even the ship you are trying to attack will avoid your fire... So to that end... it's unworkable to a fair extent...

From my own experience, when fighting higher ranked (deadly, elite especially) ships sometimes it can be difficult to get a shot onto them and I have found that often in furballs the higher ranked ships tend NOT to be the ones I might hit with a stray shot, on the rare occasion it does happen to me, its often a lower ranked AI ship that ends up getting the stray shot... I do tend to watch my fire a lot during engagements where I do not want to miss etc instead of just blanket firing...

There is a lot of good to be said for learning trigger control and treat it less like a video game although that is exactly what it is... not real life, not a motorcycle on a freeway or a jet fighter over some troublespot etc..

Clearly not everyone who plays Elite Dangerous has that sort of combat training, but a lot of us have played video games for years and can learn and adapt to situations...

Even Salami has learned some things since he started playing based on his forum posts etc...

Yes some players 'rant' or 'fly off the handle' when they receieve a percieved injustice - we are all guilty of it at some point I think simply because we are human beings, and others are just as quick to point out that person mistake...

I can't believe this discussion is still going on to be honest with you... There are ways to mitigate the likelyhood of it happening, some people accept that some don't, there are also ways to deal with the bounty system using either in game mechanics to clean yourself, in game activites you can do as an alternative until it clears itself, or simply ignoring it until it goes away or just ignoring it and continueing to play how you want...

All those ways are acceptable methods of mitigating the impact friendly fire has on your game, well unless FDev announce that cleaning yourself using a sidewinder is an exploit.

 

[FliesWithEyesClosed]

It's sad that this hasn't been fixed since the game originally released. Even more sad that people are defending this obviously poor design.

People are actually defending the NPC AI who fly in front of your field of fire? You know what i think about that? i think that...oh wait i need to alt tab back into the game cause a police ship that was trying to scan me rammed my ship again. BRB

 

[Cosmos]

Now, I can engage a SINGLE bounty, or some numbnut manages to fly through my lasers being fired, resulting in a Wanted title.

Before anything, if an NPC is too bloody dumb to watch where he's flying, I should not be the one being titled Wanted!!!
That is BLOODY unfair.
Instead, the NPC should be fined towards me, for obstruction of justice, and aiding a pirate.

Now, I know one can get off the Wanted through Death, is there another option, like bailing, or something?
I do not want to loose my ship, see...

Thank you beforehand.

You could watch where you are firing you know..

 

[Rampant]

Interesting analogy...

With regards to the ships flying... SJA has mentioned this a fair time ago... That she can make the AI so it 'avoids' your shots entirely... She can do that... but here is the rub... if she does that then ALL AI will avoid your shots... ergo even the ship you are trying to attack will avoid your fire... So to that end... it's unworkable to a fair extent...

I doubt that a change is unworkable on that basis. I'm not a programmer, but have heard of the term "sub-routine".

When you are under attack, the scanner shows a red blip, and the AI behaviour is different. I guess this is some kind of *sub*-routine. When I open fire on a Wanted vessel, or even when I KWS scan it, it adopts a different behaviour. Another *sub*-routine?

Ultimately, if we can't have a change, then so be it. We can all accept this. But - people need to stop the cries of " your fault" when, sometimes it actually isn't really the player's fault that a stranger vessel turns into the firing line.

As I said before, if I were to turn into someone's already established weapon fire, then I would 100% blame myself. No question. Bang to rights. My fault. No foul. Take it in the chin. Kick myself for bring an idiot. But still 100% my own fault.

So it should be for NPCs. Weapon fire already established : keep clear, or no bounty in the firer if it goes wrong for them.

Cheerz

Mark H

 

[DefiledDragon]

If you're in a shootout and you manouvre yourself into the firing line, you deserve everything you get. Situational awareness works both ways.

 

[excalibus]

yes it does defiled... now what if there is a firefight going on and as I innocently fly past the 2 ships fighting, I fly behind a ship being fired on and the person firing the shot misses their target and hits me??? I am not engaged in that particular furball, in fact I might be engaging in a firefight of my own with another ship...

From that perspective, clearly the person firing did not check their fire as I flew behind their target...


@Mark H
FDev have in the past made it clear that the friendly fire issue, getting a bounty is also to remove a potential abuse aspect of the friendly fire system which would enable 'griefers' to shoot commanders without any penalty is why it will never be just a fine and that aspect has been discussed to death back before release even and their reasons for it to remain a bounty do make sense when that is taken into consideration

Not to mention they have even relaxed the threshold some a coupld of patches ago, and if you are allied with the ship you shoot accidently, then that further increases the threshold. Then there is the whole issue of weapon groupings... You only get your bounty after the threshold is reached, that threshold can be reached by a group firing of weapons but it has been said that low sized weapons fired individually would not reach the threshold unless its a powerful weapon.

How many of us set groups up where all our weapons can be fired in a single shot, I know I do unless heat management issues make it so I have to split my weapons up...

 

[Howe]

It's sad that this hasn't been fixed since the game originally released. Even more sad that people are defending this obviously poor design.

It's even so simple to fix. Make minor damage a fine instead. This should take care of the vast majority of incidents where the law enforcement of an entire star system suddenly become hostile to their pirate-hunting slly because a multicannon shot glanced a shield and reduced it by 1%. What's even more funny is that you can be both allied and wanted at the same time.

Once damage accumulates, as it would if it was intentional, make it a bounty.
.

This is basically what I've been thinking as I've read through the thread. It's not so much that the game logic's broken that's annoying people (although it seems pretty clear that something's not right). It's that the game slaps a small bounty on your head which suddenly turns the whole area hostile to you. It's unrealistic for everybody to stop hunting the big prizes because CMDR Wetbehindtheears accidentally cops himself a pocket shrapnel bounty for damaging an innocent ship's paintwork.

It would make far more sense for stray shots to incur a fine. Light shield damage incurs a minor fine, heavy shield damage a larger fine, continuing to fire until hull damage occurs results in a very large fine. Bounties only get placed on your head if you continue firing until the ship is destroyed. At which point you could then have any previous fines for friendly fire added to the bounty. That would then make it far more reasonable for patrol ships to turn hostile as you've more adequately proved yourself as a menace.

 

[DaveB]

Yes I would feel some amount of responsibility in the given scenario...

<snip>

Similar as something that happened to me in game...

<snip>

...Something does not add up with this mechanic.

Sounds very similar to my attitude towards it. I'd be peeved in the scenario you described too.

But, think of it this way. If you're the only hollow blip in the area, then as far as every AI pilot is concerned you're the biggest, baddest, meanest son of a whatever in the entire valley of death. If you were rolling in on a multiple threat environment you'd automatically, instinctively orient on the greatest threat and shoot 'em right in the lips, right?

It's not the amount of the bounty, it's that you are a valid target and the greatest threat. The moment you got that piddling little 200cr bounty, you became a valid target. The amount of the bounty doesn't count. You're either a target/threat or you're not. When you nailed that Hauler you were suddenly a new threat on the scanner of every AI pilot out there. They evaluated this new threat as greater then the one they were currently targeting and turned to deal with it.

Quite frankly, I'm not sure I'd press MY attack on the 'conda in that situation. I suddenly had what appeared to be a much more dangerous pilot on my scope that had become a threat and demanded my immediate attention. The 'conda would keep - if the pilot was fool enough to stick around I could waste him in a few seconds later. Better to handle the more serious threat.

I'm not defending the dumb AI Hauler here, it should have avoided an active line of fire incoming on their target. Everyone and their cat turning and firing on you once you became a valid target, however, that is defensible. You're the strongest threat out there.

 

[fademist]

Which One to use?

Spoiler

View attachment 80823

I think this one, although it's rather the other's flying acrobatics.

Nah, hardly hit them....
But I cannot undock, or they'll eat my ship.
Costly affaire, dammit!!!!

No way to buy off my wanted?

buy a sidewinder and say hello to the nearest wall prolly that will solve that problem if the station u r has a shipyard ofc

 

[DaveB]

...It would make far more sense for stray shots to incur a fine. Light shield damage incurs a minor fine, heavy shield damage a larger fine, continuing to fire until hull damage occurs results in a very large fine. Bounties only get placed on your head if you continue firing until the ship is destroyed. At which point you could then have any previous fines for friendly fire added to the bounty. That would then make it far more reasonable for patrol ships to turn hostile as you've more adequately proved yourself as a menace.

I'd be happy with that.

 

[Trekari]

Yeah, then the idiot who took out the shields and caused that ship to take hull damage from everyone else just gets a fine while the other ship gets blown up?

Only self-entitled, lazy, zero accountability pilots have a problem with shooting things they don't intend to. I've got a few weeks time in-game and I've only had accidental shot bounties twice.

Exercise better trigger control. Spend as much time improving your decision making as you do complaining about your lack of self control and you'd have no reason to complain in the first place.

 

[theriverlethe]

I actually managed to get a 200cr bounty last night when I missed an Anaconda with a flak cannon. It wasn't nearly as hilarious as when they introduced the speeding mechanic and I used afterburner leaving a station. An authority eagle or something bounced off my hull and exploded a few seconds later. Good times.

The AI could be smarter, but the penalties are fine the way they are.

 

[Reaper99]

Now, I can engage a SINGLE bounty, or some numbnut manages to fly through my lasers being fired, resulting in a Wanted title.

Before anything, if an NPC is too bloody dumb to watch where he's flying, I should not be the one being titled Wanted!!!
That is BLOODY unfair.
Instead, the NPC should be fined towards me, for obstruction of justice, and aiding a pirate.

Now, I know one can get off the Wanted through Death, is there another option, like bailing, or something?
I do not want to loose my ship, see...

Thank you beforehand.

if you did not kill npc that was dumb enough to fly in front of your beams of justice...jump out of system...wait 7 minutes...go back...not wanted...but when you land at station you will have a fine to pay out...ussually about 400

if you kill em its 7 days i think...and 5000 i believe.

 

[DefiledDragon]

yes it does defiled... now what if there is a firefight going on and as I innocently fly past the 2 ships fighting, I fly behind a ship being fired on and the person firing the shot misses their target and hits me??? I am not engaged in that particular furball, in fact I might be engaging in a firefight of my own with another ship...

From that perspective, clearly the person firing did not check their fire as I flew behind their target...

True, but in all the time I've played this and all the ships I've killed, that has never happened. If I've ever accidentally shot a clean NPC it's because he flew between myself and my target, not because he flew behind it. From the sound of it, that's also what happened to the OP.

Having said that, I can't remember the last time I got a bounty for accidental glances off friendlies. I can however remember the last time I got a bounty because an NPC flew his ship into the back of me and exploded :\

 

[D Rendar]

I feel like NPCs are a lot more forgiving over this infraction, lately. I've noticed, when in RESs and in cooperation with authorities, if I accidentally tag them once or twice it doesn't auto-flag me as wanted. If I sustain fire for more than a second, though, that's when I get the bounty.

 

[Rampant]

Sounds very similar to my attitude towards it. I'd be peeved in the scenario you described too.

But, think of it this way. If you're the only hollow blip in the area, then as far as every AI pilot is concerned you're the biggest, baddest, meanest son of a whatever in the entire valley of death. If you were rolling in on a multiple threat environment you'd automatically, instinctively orient on the greatest threat and shoot 'em right in the lips, right?

Nope.

That ethos works, more or less, in an *impending* bar brawl. But does not work at all once the brawl has actually started.

And only works in a fist fight scenario. Once airborne, everybody automatically harbours the notion that they *are* the most skilled pilot up there. (In fact, this is even tacitly encouraged).

Faced with a wing of 3 in this game: an Eagle, a Cobra and a Fer de Lance. Which do you begin the assault with?

Best choice is Eagle. Weakest shield and hull. Can be despatched in mere seconds. Leaving 2 aggressive hostiles.

If you start with the FdL, that would much, much longer. In that longer time you may also be taking damage from 2 other ships, vice the 1 other ship if you have already taken the Eagle out of the equation.

So the smart choice in my own previous scenario is to still take out the Anaconda before his shields can regenerate. Leaving only me to tackle. Rather than to tackle me and then get spanked by an already angry and aroused Anaconda.

Like I said. AI still needs tweaking...

 

[jay3141592]

I could live with the fine, or having a percentage penalty on my collected bounties.

The "you've got to flee the engagement now and cool your heels for 7 minutes (or go do something your ship isn't equipped to do) or be destroyed by everyone" is the bit that annoys me. I've got limited time to play Elite; if I wanted a forced break, I'd be hauling Hutton Mug.

 

[Comrade Napoleon]

Accidental Wanted due to NPC pilots crossing my imbecile fire....

@Salami : fixed le for you. Happy new year

Cheers