Yes PVP is unfair.

[GluttonyFang]

Can you point me at the design information, Developer comment that says that the design of the modes is to drive traders and non-pvp'ers out of OPEN? I'd be interested to read that.

You misinterpreted or intentionally played strawman, I'll let you decide. Developers' design allow players to choose the environment they wish to play in, thus player who doesn't wish to bother learning the ropes in Open can perfectly enjoy the game in other environments. Traders can survive quite easily in Open, as long as they are willing to learn the basics of dealing with players.

If your going to respond please try to complete your arguments. Yes I know all about pvp in EVE. You *can* get a small amount of loot from a player, just like you *can* get a small amount of cargo from a player in elite. The loot you get in no way compensates for the combat ships that you lose, making it a money sink to do PVP. PVP is more formed in EVE, PVP can be used to gain territory but in the main low-sec PVP is individuals killing people just because they can. Gangs chasing gangs, gangs chasing miners etc. Very very very occasionally someone hits the goldmine and kills a ship carrying something worth a fortune, but that does not stop it overall being a cash sink.

If a pirate is losing his ship in piracy where it exceeds the credits he is pulling in, then I would say that the pirate isn't very good at what he does. Not being good at what one does of course equates money sink. PK and PvP are different things.

I'm not sure how someone politically supporting attacking in-game traders forms part of your argument, you would need to expand so I can counter it. There is some gameplay within Elite for powerplay, attacking people transporting powerplay items etc

If your sole intention is to counter people's argument, then I would question your attitude in the conversation. But the idea is simple, just as there are many "kill traders/civilians" missions out there, there are those that support these ethically questionable behaviors.

As for it's the victims fault... really? Thats what your going with?

Indeed, because actual griefing in this game is near impossible, the only complaints I've been reading about are perceived griefing and complaints masking the ignorance of game mechanics and indolent mindsets.

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Folding

Admitting to cheating on the forum, interesting .-.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

… PK and PvP are different things.…

Hm, now I'm curious. How is it possible to kill a player (PK) without PvP?

I guess I misread something?

 

[Remiel]

Every time someone applies the word 'griefer' to legitimate gameplay, legitimised by design of the game, the word loses just a little bit more of its meaning. If your intention in using the word is merely a vexation one, then understand that by calling me a griefer just because I blew up your space pixels, I will, by your definition, admit to being a damn proud griefer.

Until you pin me for breaking actual rules, though, all we have is your bitter sweet tears which I will add to my ever growing collection.

 

[Kezha]

Admitting to cheating on the forum, interesting .-.

not cheating at all, its a           move sure, and I only do it to those who by pointless force rushes against me, so not being against the tos or eula i do not see why i cant use it to      the pvpers off the aame way the      me off.

give those who utter any word or try to communicate and interact, im not going anywhere, and ive had a few of those fights, they are fun, and ive met some awesome people from that. Even when i got my insides turned to outsides in seconds as i didnt comply.

but the silent rogers, no regrets at all, and certainly not cheating

 

[GluttonyFang]

Hm, now I'm curious. How is it possible to kill a player (PK) without PvP?

I guess I misread something?

PvP can include PK, but PvP isn't equivalent to PK.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

PvP can include PK, but PvP isn't equivalent to PK.

Oh, you are right. I need more coffee.

(self-face-palm)

 

[GluttonyFang]

not cheating at all, its a move sure, and I only do it to those who by pointless force rushes against me, so not being against the tos or eula i do not see why i cant use it to the pvpers off the aame way the me off.

give those who utter any word or try to communicate and interact, im not going anywhere, and ive had a few of those fights, they are fun, and ive met some awesome people from that. Even when i got my insides turned to outsides in seconds as i didnt comply.

but the silent rogers, no regrets at all, and certainly not cheating

I understand the reasoning, but I don't believe it can justify combat logging. If you used the in-game mechanics to escape/avoid the encounter it would be fine. The only thing that can justify combat logging is natural causes/demands (House is on fire/ Power shortage).

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Oh, you are right. I need more coffee.

(self-face-palm)

Meh, feel sleepy myself here, might go to sleep.

 

[Remiel]

not cheating at all, its a move sure, and I only do it to those who by pointless force rushes against me, so not being against the tos or eula i do not see why i cant use it to the pvpers off the aame way the me off.

give those who utter any word or try to communicate and interact, im not going anywhere, and ive had a few of those fights, they are fun, and ive met some awesome people from that. Even when i got my insides turned to outsides in seconds as i didnt comply.

but the silent rogers, no regrets at all, and certainly not cheating

Logging off to avoid combat, when you knowingly logged in to an environment in which said combat might occur (which is essentially like signing a disclaimer saying, "I am aware that people might shoot at me"), whether you like it or not, is cheating. I don't care how you spin it or what excuses you make.

You wanna hope someone who records their gameplay doesn't catch you doing it, because it is reportable, and I record ALL my gameplay.

 

[Alpha087]

It almost feels like "griefing" was a term that was carried over from EVE Online. While I don't agree it's really the correct terminology for mindlessly killing other players, I think that anyone who just kills other players "because they can" is actively subjecting themselves to being shunned by those of the community who don't agree with that sort of behavior. If this were 10 years ago, you might even see large portions of the community dedicated to "counter-griefing" these sorts of players and killing them repeatedly until they're either forced to quit or are put back into a Sidewinder.

 

[Jack Schitt]

tl:dr - i treat guns blazing people like they treat me, i combat log and have no regrets to it. Combat logging is not against the games TOS and EULA so reporting it is equal to report someones ship is red and it triggers you. The problem is that people think they are interacting with players when all they so is interacting less than npc's do. The community needs more communication and in the long run it helps everyone have a tonne more fun.

Wow. Just when you think the floodgates are already open, someone comes along and detonates an Upkeep at the foot of the dam...

I'm not going to defend FD's policy on combat logging, which I agree is a bit bonkers and basically amounts to "We won't fix these broken bits of our game, but if you use this other broken bit to avoid them then you're scum." But they have made their position clear. Combat logging is verboten, and actionable if proven.

 

[_Dastardly_]

You misinterpreted or intentionally played strawman, I'll let you decide. Developers' design allow players to choose the environment they wish to play in, thus player who doesn't wish to bother learning the ropes in Open can perfectly enjoy the game in other environments. Traders can survive quite easily in Open, as long as they are willing to learn the basics of dealing with players.

Driving people away from certain modes due to gameplay imbalances is I'm sure not what Frontier wanted or intended. Dont forget I'm not talking about the gentleman pirate that interdicts a ship and demands some cargo to let it go. Most of the issues around this come from wings of ships pulling in (especially newbie) traders with zero chance of escape. If a Type-6 or Type-7 or even a python gets interdicted by two FDL's and a Corvette or anaconda it's game over. Or those guys that think it's fun to sit around the newbie areas killing sidewinders in one hit.

If a pirate is losing his ship in piracy where it exceeds the credits he is pulling in, then I would say that the pirate isn't very good at what he does. Not being good at what one does of course equates money sink. PK and PvP are different things.

A well organised pirate that does not destroy his income steam and skims credits from the traders is actually a wonderful thing to see and really makes this game worth playing. However see my point above, it's not them I'm talking about.

If your sole intention is to counter people's argument, then I would question your attitude in the conversation. But the idea is simple, just as there are many "kill traders/civilians" missions out there, there are those that support these ethically questionable behaviors.

Good point. What I meant was your current line of argument.


Arguing that we should allow something because it's used against NPC's in the game is not valid in my book. What I'm saying is that one players gamestyle should not be valued less than anothers.

Yes traders shouldn't get away with flying shieldless armorless weaponless without a care in the world (although they can do that in solo regardless since NPC interdictions are so broken). But PVP'ers should not be allowed mass murder their way across the galaxy affecting other players games.. without some kind of penalty against them. It's not about in game roleplaying it's about fairness of one player against another. If a player is flying a flying a shieldless tradeship then the PVP'er might kill it and get away before the police get there. If they sacrifice a small amount of cargo space for small shields it might give them a better chance. If they sacrifice a larger amount of space for much better shields then they will almost certainly survive to see the police arrive and join them against the attacker. That should be the risk that the attacker takes. If they get caught by the police trying to take down another ship then whats the harm in them losing their insurance as a punishment. If they are a good PVP'er then they wont lose their ship

At the moment it's either they get a free kill or the trader submits, boosts, boosts, boosts and jumps. I'm not trying to make PVP impossible. I'm trying to make it FAIR from the side of the victim and interesting from the side of the attacker.

 

[Alpha087]

Yes traders shouldn't get away with flying shieldless armorless weaponless without a care in the world (although they can do that in solo regardless since NPC interdictions are so broken). But PVP'ers should not be allowed mass murder their way across the galaxy affecting other players games.. without some kind of penalty against them. It's not about in game roleplaying it's about fairness of one player against another.

I take it you haven't loaded up a small or medium trading ship (Type 6 or 7) recently. I don't know if this is a thing since Horizons or earlier, but NPCs are very aggressive about spawning on ships with cargo, often taunting you in chat while in Supercruise regarding your cargo, and harass you with interdictions which ARE broken but absolutely not in the player's favor. I've had a friend trading in a basic Type 6 with a shield and all get interdicted. I watched through the Wing interface as the first hit took out his shields instantly. It only took another few seconds for the NPC to burn his hull and destroy him, despite his efforts to boost away and escape, thus costing him 100t of Palladium.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Driving people away from certain modes due to gameplay imbalances is I'm sure not what Frontier wanted or intended. Dont forget I'm not talking about the gentleman pirate that interdicts a ship and demands some cargo to let it go. Most of the issues around this come from wings of ships pulling in (especially newbie) traders with zero chance of escape. If a Type-6 or Type-7 or even a python gets interdicted by two FDL's and a Corvette or anaconda it's game over. Or those guys that think it's fun to sit around the newbie areas killing sidewinders in one hit.

FD provides different environments for different players, if a person doesn't feel comfortable in an environment, said individual is free to remove oneself from said environment and still enjoy the game. Basically, instead of considering it "driving people away," it's people making choices themselves.

Ganking is a part of the game, and I believe Michael himself have stated so.


Also, trade ships that allow themselves to be interdicted by a wing already made the mistake. When a ship knows it is not outfitted for combat, it should actively be aware of its surroundings. There is no chokepoint in this game, and the developers already stated that they are against the idea of a chokepoint. Noob killing isn't anything new, I personally don't find it entertaining, but if people find it fun, let them do what they want. It's not like noobs are forced to be in noob area like other MMO that noob-camp at starter area. In ED, there is no "fixed" starter area like other MMO.

Arguing that we should allow something because it's used against NPC's in the game is not valid in my book. What I'm saying is that one players gamestyle should not be valued less than anothers.

The problem is shooting players will count toward the mission, so FD isn't discriminating. I personally find it acceptable, from an immersion stand point. You will have to argue with the developers on that one if you intend to.

Yes traders shouldn't get away with flying shieldless armorless weaponless without a care in the world (although they can do that in solo regardless since NPC interdictions are so broken). But PVP'ers should not be allowed mass murder their way across the galaxy affecting other players games.. without some kind of penalty against them. It's not about in game roleplaying it's about fairness of one player against another.

I don't see the parallels. What separates Open from Solo is that Solo is relatively safer than Open, carrying habits of Solo into Open is an idea people will regret and should be regretting.

PKers should be penalized, yes, as I made the suggestion about it earlier already. But nullifying their insurance is heavy handed because it damages and discourages hostile interaction. Unlike other games, there is no way for one to die unless one wishes to die in this game (save the bugs, cheating and unintentional AI behaviors), and players aren't forced into any specific mode/area that they have to deal with player interference, so to penalize hostile interaction by nullifying insurance on top of all this is without a doubt, heavy-handed.

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I take it you haven't loaded up a small or medium trading ship (Type 6 or 7) recently. I don't know if this is a thing since Horizons or earlier, but NPCs are very aggressive about spawning on ships with cargo, often taunting you in chat while in Supercruise regarding your cargo, and harass you with interdictions which ARE broken but absolutely not in the player's favor. I've had a friend trading in a basic Type 6 with a shield and all get interdicted. I watched through the Wing interface as the first hit took out his shields instantly. It only took another few seconds for the NPC to burn his hull and destroy him, despite his efforts to boost away and escape, thus costing him 100t of Palladium.

Did he boost in a straight line? Did he carry any chaff/SCB/SB/PD? What was assaulting him? Was it a wing?

Unless there's enough information proving otherwise, it's merely pilot error.

 

[dxm55]

Arguing that we should allow something because it's used against NPC's in the game is not valid in my book. What I'm saying is that one players gamestyle should not be valued less than anothers.

Yes traders shouldn't get away with flying shieldless armorless weaponless without a care in the world (although they can do that in solo regardless since NPC interdictions are so broken). But PVP'ers should not be allowed mass murder their way across the galaxy affecting other players games.. without some kind of penalty against them. It's not about in game roleplaying it's about fairness of one player against another.

Yes, interesting thoughts: "one players gamestyle should not be valued less than anothers"

You're looking at it from the POV of the PvE'er. The trader or explorer who wants to move things across space for profits, and expects the PvP'er to leave him or her alone.
The problem is that from the POV of the PVP'er, "leave me alone" is telling him that his playstyle is valued less.

It's all very subjective, I'm afraid. And it's also very unlikely that either side will accede to the other.
Since gameplay or playstyles on both sides of the argument are in fact valid, there is precious little that FD can enforce on one type of player without marginalizing the other.

That leaves FD to look at implementing NPC mechanics to balance things out.

Good suggestions have been brought forward by many players.
- Stronger NPC police presence in higher security systems
- More aggressive NPC response to wanted players in higher sec systems
- A way to call for NPC help, a distress call, when under attack
- Higher bounty penalties, and longer bounty durations for what is essentially murder, not just piracy.
- Bounties that are not just local to that system, but extend to the entire faction that the system is in

Basically to increase the penalties and risk for what would be considered violent behavior in a civil society.


You can't stop someone from killing another person just because. But you can make his life pretty damned hard.

 

[Kezha]

Logging off to avoid combat, when you knowingly logged in to an environment in which said combat might occur (which is essentially like signing a disclaimer saying, "I am aware that people might shoot at me"), whether you like it or not, is cheating. I don't care how you spin it or what excuses you make.

You wanna hope someone who records their gameplay doesn't catch you doing it, because it is reportable, and I record ALL my gameplay.

I also let my kids run in the street, an enviorment where a car can hit them when they sit on the lawn. So the driver should not be charged and if I hold a grudge against him I'm the bad person? (overexagerated example)

And I'm not making excuses at all, I am openly telling you I combat log at times when I can't be, to put it kindly,     ed ot bother with these people. The reason I do play in Open myself, is to drag people out of SC, and be the assailant, but I try to interact and talk, I don't know any other way I can try to change things, I guess it goes against itself when I treat the psychos the way I do and that in turn angers then but let them.

I'll gladly hope someone has reported me AND recorded me, shame me openly if you want, here I am admitting it, my pilots name is readily available, yet I've not broken any of the rules set by FD thus can you report me all you want, not to be rude, you can do so, but it does not change that at the end of the day its not actually against the rules. Should it be? perhaps, but then the silent killers would rejoice and the community would keep on spiraling into the hatred for PVPers and nothing would ever be done, changed or considered, because the angry killers are happy, everyone else suffers.

You can call me a douchenozzle if you want to, but I see nothing wrong with it, just as some PVPers see nothing wrong inderdicting the crap out of everyone, griefing and killing lowbies and beginners and making other peoples lives misserable and ruining their game experiences for their own amusement, in essence, the same thing I do when I combat log. So yeah. Feel free to hate me for it, not gonna blame you, but I'm not gonna stop you either. And untill FD Tells me "hey your doing something against the rules" and the TOS and EULA is updated accordingly, then I'll not do it even to those who deserve it. Because no, I don't combat log against everyone and their family, far from it.

So wether you like it or not, its not cheating, and you should read the games rules that you agree to before calling someone a cheater, its a bit rude. Call me a douchenozzle, but not a cheater.

I understand the reasoning, but I don't believe it can justify combat logging. If you used the in-game mechanics to escape/avoid the encounter it would be fine. The only thing that can justify combat logging is natural causes/demands (House is on fire/ Power shortage).

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Meh, feel sleepy myself here, might go to sleep.

In essence it does not justify it, and I don't thoroughly enjoy doing it, the main reason is out of principle, and I hope that the people get angry, and moreso I hope they add me or contact me. I love PVP, its thrilling and can be very fun. But in ED most cases end up being the opposite as NPC's give me more joy and interaction of play.

One reads the stories about those who lost months of exploration data, or millions in trading for nothing at all to a CMDR being a , an NPC at least screams at you first... If these players had an incentive more than being silent morons then it would not make the months of game re-appear, it would not reinburst millions, but it would at least leave them knowing why.

Like those player factions that exist in the plentyfull, how many of those introduce themselves and say someone have come to the wrong place, this place is protected and all traffic will be met with lethal force, anything, just anything.

And no, I am not against people doing whatever they want, but if PVPers are gonna be selfish and go "but I want to aimlessly kill and make others angry" well I want to log off and make them angry, so screw me I guess?

 

[GluttonyFang]

- Stronger NPC police presence in higher security systems

Lower high-sec profit and increase low-sec profit at the same time.

 

[Thaliesin]

Tortuga. We need Tortuga.

Being wanted is a joke. You get caught killing ships? Welcome to the wonderful experience of being a pirate. Few safe havens, the thrill of being hunted all the time, the joy of having no one to answer to for your crimes... until they catch you, of course.

Being a pirate should not be for amateurs.

 

[Kezha]

Wow. Just when you think the floodgates are already open, someone comes along and detonates an Upkeep at the foot of the dam...

I'm not going to defend FD's policy on combat logging, which I agree is a bit bonkers and basically amounts to "We won't fix these broken bits of our game, but if you use this other broken bit to avoid them then you're scum." But they have made their position clear. Combat logging is verboten, and actionable if proven.

Hey FD, I combat log against people that      me off, if you choose to ban me from playing the game you break a few laws by doing so as according to the tos and eula they wrote its not illegal or bannable. https://www.frontierstore.net/eur/ed-eula/ and thus can you not revoke me from playing the game.

But yes, it does make me a scumbag, I would say it puts me on the same level as someone griefing, the difference is I guess i Have the balls to admit it, and say what I do. thats how much of a problem and annoyance those kind of PVPers are to me in games, they are allowed to grief and aimlessly be          s, but doing the one thing against them that es them off, the only one thing you can truly to do give them the same feeling, and its shunned upon like saying the unholy words in a church. I find that amusing

 

[GluttonyFang]

In essence it does not justify it, and I don't thoroughly enjoy doing it, the main reason is out of principle, and I hope that the people get angry, and moreso I hope they add me or contact me. I love PVP, its thrilling and can be very fun. But in ED most cases end up being the opposite as NPC's give me more joy and interaction of play.

One reads the stories about those who lost months of exploration data, or millions in trading for nothing at all to a CMDR being a , an NPC at least screams at you first... If these players had an incentive more than being silent morons then it would not make the months of game re-appear, it would not reinburst millions, but it would at least leave them knowing why.

Like those player factions that exist in the plentyfull, how many of those introduce themselves and say someone have come to the wrong place, this place is protected and all traffic will be met with lethal force, anything, just anything.

And no, I am not against people doing whatever they want, but if PVPers are gonna be selfish and go "but I want to aimlessly kill and make others angry" well I want to log off and make them angry, so screw me I guess?

Sure, everyone has their own principles, but when it runs contrary to the established nomocracy we fall under, it's a part of social contract to comply with essential standards. Think of it this way, if everyone playing chess started disregarding rules and claim that it runs contrary to their principle to force a certain piece to move a certain way and therefore disobeying the rule, then we don't have a game left at all.

If you are combating logging to "make people angry," then I must comment in all honesty that I find it terribly unproductive and toxic. People that attack you without hailing could very much be enjoying the game and RPing as a silent player, and doing that is within the confinement of the rules of the game. But in turn, because you interpreted the intention of the player in a certain manner, you then try to upset these players on purpose by using a method developers stated to be cheating, it seems like the one at fault seems to be you instead of the player that attacked you.

 

[_Dastardly_]

Yes, interesting thoughts: "one players gamestyle should not be valued less than anothers"

You're looking at it from the POV of the PvE'er. The trader or explorer who wants to move things across space for profits, and expects the PvP'er to leave him or her alone.
The problem is that from the POV of the PVP'er, "leave me alone" is telling him that his playstyle is valued less.

It's all very subjective, I'm afraid. And it's also very unlikely that either side will accede to the other.
Since gameplay or playstyles on both sides of the argument are in fact valid, there is precious little that FD can enforce on one type of player without marginalizing the other.

That leaves FD to look at implementing NPC mechanics to balance things out.

Good suggestions have been brought forward by many players.
- Stronger NPC police presence in higher security systems
- More aggressive NPC response to wanted players in higher sec systems
- A way to call for NPC help, a distress call, when under attack
- Higher bounty penalties, and longer bounty durations for what is essentially murder, not just piracy.
- Bounties that are not just local to that system, but extend to the entire faction that the system is in

Basically to increase the penalties and risk for what would be considered violent behavior in a civil society.


You can't stop someone from killing another person just because. But you can make his life pretty damned hard.

Sorry you were right, insurance removal was a bad example, however it could be reserved for the 'worst of the worst' persistent offenders.

I'm glad to see you have come around to my way of thinking (Big cheesy grin) Your examples are great above. As was the suggestion from someone earlier in the thread about a broadcast saying how long till police intervention 'Aggression detected, police en-route, expected ETA 30 seconds' or whatever. Really builds the immersion in the game.

A reputation system might work as well. Something that varies between 'Upright Citizen to Dastardly Pirate' (I'm sure there's lots of people out there that would love to be an "Elite Dastardly Pirate" on the run in every system they visit, KOS for the authorities, the worst of the worst and scum of the universe getting away with murder at a price.