Yes PVP is unfair.

[Mr_Blastman]

I would it too if it wasn't for submit Highwake Braben drive to freedom, it might actually be a thing.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

Jump scramblers. Takes up a bay but gives a random chance to those high waking they might end up in the middle of a star.

I know. Asking a lot but... could be very amusing.

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The reward is that it's entertaining gameplay. Most pirates have made their money so are not interested in the profit from your cargo, its about the role-play. If you choose to be a trader you should be happy when you get the chance to role-play against a CMDR pirate because however these posts make it sound, its only on a rare occasion that it happens

Some pirates. I started pirating in a Viper with measly cargo space, worked myself up to a Cobra, stayed in the Cobra for six months and have a Clipper now (among many other ships). I did it the hard way. I'm sure there are many other pirates who did, too.

 

[Roybe]

So because the PvP players have won a PvP contest by causing someone to jump out...they are upset? Why? What more could you possibly want? You won the fight?

 

[_Dastardly_]

So because the PvP players have won a PvP contest by causing someone to jump out...they are upset? Why? What more could you possibly want? You won the fight?

Good point

See this is why I have no sympathy for traders (other than they shouldn't be murdered for fun). Traders are blinded by greed. You say a trader might lose between 1 and 20 mil... well that's nice. Let's look at it from an hourly earnings perspective...

Pirate earns ~500k/hr or less (these days a lot less)

Trader earns ~3 - 9 million an hour (or more? I don't know, I don't trade)

So a trader with a 20 mil rebuy is earning at least 9 mil an hour, probably more, probably 9 - 11 mil, so in two hours time they can re-buy everything and be back to normal.

Pirate earns less than 500k/hr, they might have a 1.7 - 3.5 million re-buy... that means it will take the pirate 3.5 - 7 hours to recover.


Let's say that again...

Trader has TWO HOURS risk of time

Pirate has SEVEN HOURS risk of time


Who has more risk? Who has more loss?

In 24 hours... Pirate might earn 12 million (yeah right--piracy is limited to only a few hours a day due to server load, so... realisticall)... pirate actually earns 3 - 6 million

Trader earns... 72 - 216 million.

Wait. Traders earn 18 times more money?!?!!?

SAY IT IS NOT SO.

I have no pity for traders.

(but I find myself defending them anyways from murderers because the spice must flow)

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So let's see... let's take a game choice (because PLAY IT YOUR WAY) that some folks choose, that already makes no money, and make it impossible for them to recover...

Because

Other players who choose to trade and make 18 to 50 times (assuming pure PvP [not pirate] makes near-zero credits) more money per hour who can be sitting on giant credit balances can continue to make giant credit balances which usually ends up in them growing bored and quitting the game because there is no content.

That makes sense!

Your quoting extremes there... Its really annoying..

9-11 mil/hour would be excessive even for the biggest trading ship in the game (750 cargo * 3100 cr/ton * 4 runs per hour = 9,300,000 mil/hour). And most of the people being attacked (successfully) are going to be in the much smaller ships, type-6, type-7 or asp that are going to be pulling in between 500k and 1.5mil/hour. Bigger ships have bigger overall shields/hull and higher masslock value and therefore are harder to stop. Also if you got that far your going to be (hopefully) more experienced.

Asp (Rebuy 500k? + 1.8mil cargo (assuming high-value like palladium) = 2.3mil loss which would take 7.1 hours to recover assuming a 3k/ton trade route.

So looking at the smaller ships they are going to be pulling in MUCH less than your PVP'er. Also dont forget we are not just talking about traders, explorers and newbie sidewinders and people just sightseeing are being ganked by a-rated PVP ships and these have to be taken into account.

 

[Robert Maynard]

the issue is.
Any time you suggest anything along the lines of make it easier to catch and keep some one in battle. all the explorers and traders "who may i add are usually in solo any way" lose their minds.
they only see it as "it will be harder for me to run away"
They never see the big picture of. It means that the bad men who got them will have it even worse when the vigilantes are after them..

In an attempt to come up with a solution that may be less likely to meet with opposition from the less combative players:

One thing that Pirates and Bounty Hunters may have in common is the installation of an FSD-Interdictor on their ships.

If a "stop the other ship leaving" mechanic were to be considered then it could rely on the existence of an FSD-I on the targeted ship to cause some form of feedback loop which would disable the FSD of the target. In this way, only ships with an FSD-I installed could be snared in normal space.

 

[shambles1980]

that could work i guess..
Im neither a pirate or a bounty hunter. but i do undermine for powerplay and so i have a fsd interdictor.
I personally believe that being in open and actively hunting down my opponents faction makes me fair game.
So i would be perfectly happy with that solution.

(i want the benifits of pp, so i accept the risks too)

 

[CMDR Bloodhawk]

Well, I think after looking at the responses to my last post things are a lot clearer about the attitude of PvPers.

Thanks for clearing that up guys. I had my suspicions, but good (or bad) to see them confirmed.

To everyone else, there's a party in Mobius, free Tea for everyone.

I'm out.

I'm sure that's not at all confirmation bias and not a comment on the quality of the "suggestion"

It's nauseating that someone with your attitude and obvious bias is given moderating duties.

 

[Mr_Blastman]

Good point



Your quoting extremes there... Its really annoying..

9-11 mil/hour would be excessive even for the biggest trading ship in the game (750 cargo * 3100 cr/ton * 4 runs per hour = 9,300,000 mil/hour). And most of the people being attacked (successfully) are going to be in the much smaller ships, type-6, type-7 or asp that are going to be pulling in between 500k and 1.5mil/hour. Bigger ships have bigger overall shields/hull and higher masslock value and therefore are harder to stop. Also if you got that far your going to be (hopefully) more experienced.

Asp (Rebuy 500k? + 1.8mil cargo (assuming high-value like palladium) = 2.3mil loss which would take 7.1 hours to recover assuming a 3k/ton trade route.

So looking at the smaller ships they are going to be pulling in MUCH less than your PVP'er. Also dont forget we are not just talking about traders, explorers and newbie sidewinders are being ganked by a-rated PVP ships and these have to be taken into account.

So when I go to extremes it is annoying but when anti-PvP folks do, it is okay? Please.

You used hyperbole, plain and simple. You said 20 million. I matched your extreme. Now that we're back down to Earth...

First, a question?

If the trader is so worried about dying and paying for insurance and lost cargo, why don't they just stop like asked, wait for scan and drop cargo? It might only cost them 20-30% of their load but they live and are protected from threats because the pirate promises to keep them safe. It is a real promise, by the way. We DO kill folks who harm traders for no reason.


So...

Type 6, 1 mil re-buy, 1.8 mil in cargo (15k palladium because sell price doesn't count--only buy price), 2.8 mil re-buy and they earn 1.5/mil hour (your words)...

2 hour re-buy

Pirate... 7 hour re-buy.

I fail to see your point?

You can skew the numbers all you want. You can say that I'm giving extreme examples. But you gave them. And I've just shown even with smaller ships (and type 6s are RARE these days), they still make it back in TWO HOURS versus a pirate's SEVEN HOURS.

What are you trying to say? That piracy is too risky?

 

[CMDR Bloodhawk]

In an attempt to come up with a solution that may be less likely to meet with opposition from the less combative players:

One thing that Pirates and Bounty Hunters may have in common is the installation of an FSD-Interdictor on their ships.

If a "stop the other ship leaving" mechanic were to be considered then it could rely on the existence of an FSD-I on the targeted ship to cause some form of feedback loop which would disable the FSD of the target. In this way, only ships with an FSD-I installed could be snared in normal space.

Very interesting suggestion and loving the lateral thinking. The problem here is that griefers (not pirates) can just unequip the module if they don't feel like facing justice. By and large, honorable pirates are not the problem

If the trader is so worried about dying and paying for insurance and lost cargo, why don't they just stop like asked, wait for scan and drop cargo? It might only cost them 20-30% of their load but they live and are protected from threats because the pirate promises to keep them safe. It is a real promise, by the way. We DO kill folks who harm traders for no reason.

In fairness there is no way for the trader to know if you'll be good on your word.

 

[Thaliesin]

No real way to fix this. Not without changing *a lot* the game.

You'd have to make so that being wanted is serious trouble (which would mean lots of whining, and anyway would be quite the effort with no guarantee of success).
You'd have to make so that hunting pirates becomes a profitable businness (worth the hassle of going against organized people skilled in pvp).
You'd have to make so that escaping from interdiction becomes a difficult endeavour (or being a pirate won't be worth the hassle - more whining).
You'd have to make so that trading in open is profitable enough to make up for the increased danger (not really sure how - perhaps separating solo and open economies?).

It's not gonna happen anytime soon.

Open PVP in this game is really a mess. Just don't.
Do CQC instead, which is a really nice PvP experience for those who enjoy a challenge.

Elite is about pretending to be a space trader, a space pirate, a bounty hunter, an explorer. You can do that solo - so nobody will break your immersion - or with friends, using private groups like Mobius. What is Open going to add to your game?

 

[snadge]

Hi everyone, first post.

As an avid PvPer in all games that I play I'm looking forward to learning the ropes in ED, saying that, I do agree that there should be penalties for doing so.

Although I have owned the game for quite a while I have just really started playing it, I got killed 3 times outside the station that I spawned at, didn't really bother me as I didn't lose anything BUT the player that did it just hung around with absolutely no consequences, Eve is a far more brutal game than this but even in that game Concorde are piling in to retribution your death and killing noobs in starter systems equals a ban.

So, yes PvP should definitely be allowed but with consequences for killing clean commanders, come into high security space with a bad reputation and super tough NPC cops WILL kill on sight.

Eve has the Risk/reward correct, ED needs to have consequences for indiscriminate ganking.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…
If the trader is so worried about dying and paying for insurance and lost cargo, why don't they just stop like asked, wait for scan and drop cargo?

Answer you probably don't like:
They don't have to.
They don't want to and they don't want to get blown up.
They have options to avoid it and some don't want to use those options.


The problem is that some don’t accept that getting blown up in Open Mode is a possibility and think Open Mode should be a different mode and they ignore the options they have because they want a better option.

 

[Mr_Blastman]

In fairness there is no way for the trader to know if you'll be good on your word.

Better to stop and drop 99% of the time and live versus run and get popped 50% of the time.

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Answer you probably don't like:
They don't have to.
They don't want to and they don't want to get blown up.
They have options to avoid it and some don't want to use those options.


The problem is that some don’t accept that getting blown up in Open Mode is a possibility and think Open Mode should be a different mode and they ignore the options they have because they want a better option.

Ah. So we're back to greed. They want it all without any consequences. That's how I see a lot of traders.

What fun is having all those credits if you bore yourself to get them and when you do, realize you have nothing left to play for? That is... if playing for credits and ships are your goal.

 

[CMDR Valleys]

Take a look at this tread, spy limits that can track players! Interesting discussion going on as a way of developing the bounty hunting career path.

combined with player assassination missions this could be awesome!

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=227264

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…

Ah. So we're back to greed. They want it all without any consequences. ….

I don't know if greed is the right word. They want a different game mode and Elite doesn't offer that mode.

 

[shambles1980]

you mean they want mobius? or some strange mode where they can kill any pirate with a magic 1 button i win?

 

[Mr_Blastman]

you mean they want mobius? or some strange mode where they can kill any pirate with a magic 1 button i win?

Seems to be the case.

 

[Theodrid]

As opposed to the 'I win button' of every trader being a good boy and girl and stopping, waiting for a scan then dropping cargo is? Surely an 'I win' button for pirates is just as unpalatable and lame as the hyperbole filled trader 'I win' button?

 

[Nazdakka]

I agree with the OP.

 

[Mr_Blastman]

As opposed to the 'I win button' of every trader being a good boy and girl and stopping, waiting for a scan then dropping cargo is? Surely an 'I win' button for pirates is just as unpalatable and lame as the hyperbole filled trader 'I win' button?

I like the chase. I like what I do. I play for fun and the environment is my playground.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Very interesting suggestion and loving the lateral thinking. The problem here is that griefers (not pirates) can just unequip the module if they don't feel like facing justice. By and large, honorable pirates are not the problem

If some players did choose to un-equip the FSD-I then they would not be able to interdict other players.