Yes PVP is unfair.
- Thread starter _Dastardly_
- Start date
The primary reason I don't play in Open is because the penalty for murder is placed on the victim, not the murderer.
What's the penalty for murder these days? A 9,000 credit bounty? That's not a lot of money, and murderers may not care about the bounty anyway. I lost my Cobra, and that costs me 500,000 credits to get back. That's over 50 times more than their bounty! What if it was my Python? That would cost me 8,000,000 credits to get back. That's almost 900 times their bounty! See what I'm saying here? The crime and punishment system punishes the wrong side.
The additional penalties you mention don't do anything to change the fact that the victim is punished for being a victim in the form of their rebuy cost. In order to get me and people like me into Open there's going to have to be a dramatic shift in punishment.
My idea is to shift the cost of the rebuy from the victim to the criminal. If a Clean pilot is murdered they get their ship back for free. The Pilot's Federation places a non-expiring fine/bounty on the murderer in the amount of some percentage of the rebuy cost of the ship(s) they destroy that must be paid upon the destruction of their own ship. The Pilot's Federation gets their money just as they always have (although in a slightly delayed fashion), and more importantly the victim isn't penalized for being a victim.
Overall yes, but without the rank part. Trader who occasionally participates in combat will accrue combat rank with time.
That cannot work.
The reason it cannot work is because it eliminates piracy from the game which is a valid play style..
If a trader has no loss for being killed and the killer gets all the loss then no trader will ever drop cargo..
Again i believe the only fix is the insurance thing i mentioned in this post:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=226764&p=3483767#post3483767
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You have to keep the threat of murder when pirating or the trader will be less likely to comply. If they know that if you kill them then you are going to face very steep penalties, then they will be less likely to comply. Piracy is already very difficult due to combat logging and other reasons, and not very profitable compared to all other professions. I think you should be very careful about nerfing it even unintentionally.
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Hello Commander nrage!
No ETA or guarantees but:
Hopefully at some point we will get interstellar bounties back!
We are also looking at making system security more important in terms of ship population breakdown, especially in super cruise (the goal to make the extremes of the scale well, more extreme). This could also include response times.
Hi Sandro,
It would already immensely help if the security level of the cuurent system could be displayed in the HUD, so it's visible without the need to open the system map. Players would get a much better idea of the "security topology", so to say, of their home and surrounding systems, giving them an option to influence their risk-reward ratio more consciously.
Hello Commander nrage!
No ETA or guarantees but:
Hopefully at some point we will get interstellar bounties back!
We are also looking at making system security more important in terms of ship population breakdown, especially in super cruise (the goal to make the extremes of the scale well, more extreme
That sounds good! I want to feel safe and protected in high security systems, but in low and anarchies I should feel at risk more.
I'm against haven't crime against humans punished more harshly than crimes against NPCs, especially if it has penalties like in the suggestion. It just going to discourage PvP in general. AI security needs to be tighter in high security regions, that should both make crime against both players and NPCs more difficult and make different systems security level feel more noticeable. As of no system security feels the same unless you're in an anarchy system.
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Hello Commander Bane Six Echo!
Personally I'm not a fan of pushing the rebuy cost onto the criminal. Not that it's a bad idea. It makes sense in many ways, but for me, trivialises ship destruction, which is part of the intended risk of flying a ship in Elite: Dangerous. It also further stretches the difference between AI and players (which as a general principle I'd like to minimize), unless we had free re-buys from AI murders.
But point taken on the imbalance of cost resulting from criminal activities.
Personally I'm not a fan of pushing the rebuy cost onto the criminal. Not that it's a bad idea. It makes sense in many ways, but for me, trivialises ship destruction, which is part of the intended risk of flying a ship in Elite: Dangerous. It also further stretches the difference between AI and players (which as a general principle I'd like to minimize), unless we had free re-buys from AI murders.
But point taken on the imbalance of cost resulting from criminal activities.
combat logging has to be punished but that is a different hurdle.
(one i believe should be addressed properly 1st, But that is just my belief)
right now there is a discussion about a separate aspect of the game, and provided that CL does get fixed. then this part of the discussion is just as important.
You are correct in stating there is no meaningful penalty for the Player Killer, but I do not agree on removing insurance cost for their victims: being destroyed would loose all its meaning. What should prevent you from flying into dangerous systems, then? You won't feel any chill doing so, there is not really anything to loose by failing.
Save all this bother and just implement it so you can't tell the difference between players and AI on the radar. This gives most traders a fair chance IMHO.
The trader would still have a loss: the price they paid for the cargo, which can be substantial, but at least they wouldn't have the additional cost of their rebuy piled on top.
I think it would be stupid to increase insurance premiums, the guys in solo and private group won't come out into open and also would still not submit to pirates, also how would you do it for your alpha and beta backers whom have set insurance premiums because of their early backing.
Sandro, the problem is multifactorial as I'm sure you're well aware. On one hand, in an ideal world there should be no reduction in danger in being in PVE, as "psycho" NPCs should be just as deadly (without resorting to cheating) as players.
In lieu of this idea however, the solution is a better crime system overall. Your idea you present is interesting but I contend is a band-aid solution and over time just leads to a lot of complex half-rules instead of a rational overarching one.
Many have commented since 1.0 that a high-sec system should scramble police to criminal activities nearly instantly. That seems like a neater solution to me. Another continuation of the crime system improvement would be to change how bounties are handled. In my opinion bounties for murdering CMDRs should be increased across the board (there can be sliding scale for ranks if you'd like, as a Pilot's Federation bounty that shows up and is redeemable everywhere). Furthermore, the bounty cap should be removed. Lastly and most importantly, the bounty pay-out should ONLY be at the rebuy cost of the destroyed ship to prevent gold farming as in the past. This way, if you live a life of crime, you'll be continuously hunted instead of erasing your bounty at essentially no cost by killing yourself in a sidey.
Murderers should be "outlaws".
Personally I would love the idea of a bounty system where PLAYERS can place their own BOUNTY on the head of someone.
If there were logs of anything that took place we'd know who killed us in the past we could look it up.. spend money and apply it toward an additional bounty on the head of someone.
When the murderer is killed you'd be notified and feel justice. When the murderer is killed they are taunted by the fact someone got revenge on them and that players had bounties on their head.
Other NPC's would hunt them down more often IF they had a player placed bounty on their head.
Bottom line - PLAYER bounties are the answer. Having local news in stations showing positions of murderers would help too
Personally I would love the idea of a bounty system where PLAYERS can place their own BOUNTY on the head of someone.
If there were logs of anything that took place we'd know who killed us in the past we could look it up.. spend money and apply it toward an additional bounty on the head of someone.
When the murderer is killed you'd be notified and feel justice. When the murderer is killed they are taunted by the fact someone got revenge on them and that players had bounties on their head.
Other NPC's would hunt them down more often IF they had a player placed bounty on their head.
Bottom line - PLAYER bounties are the answer. Having local news in stations showing positions of murderers would help too
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So why would a trader just drop the cargo and lose that money. if he could refuse to drop it. get killed lose the cargo value, and inflict more insurance costs on the pirate than the cargo was worth?
there is no logical reason why a trader would drop the cargo if the pirate had to pay the insurance.
YES, Sandro, please implement original piracy concept!
Sandro, it's great to see you engaging with the subject.
Might I suggest that rather than add another system of punishments on top of what we have, completing and the implementing the big crime and punishment redesign you referred to in the middle of last year would add exciting gameplay to all levels of the game. The current system is a 'cops shoot me ineffectively flag' so there is little design cost to replacing it. There are plenty of ideas in the forums, Captain Kremmen and myself amongst many others have posted. And please do include non financial penalties and progressive financial penalties in any plan. 6000Cr for a murder means nothing to any player with more than a couple of days' playtime.
Might I suggest that rather than add another system of punishments on top of what we have, completing and the implementing the big crime and punishment redesign you referred to in the middle of last year would add exciting gameplay to all levels of the game. The current system is a 'cops shoot me ineffectively flag' so there is little design cost to replacing it. There are plenty of ideas in the forums, Captain Kremmen and myself amongst many others have posted. And please do include non financial penalties and progressive financial penalties in any plan. 6000Cr for a murder means nothing to any player with more than a couple of days' playtime.