Yes PVP is unfair.

[shambles1980]

i like the asbo ship idea.
Mine until value of the ship you were in when you did the crime is covered?
or possibly a set amount dependent on crimes committed.

Will there be a court case and a jury?

Think would need to make the criminal be caught though. At least a successful interdiction by the npcs.
or make them always target power plant 1st in case of criminals. so they can force you in to the chain gang.

Also needs to be some bigger boys there too. that steal some of the stuff they mined with cargo hatch limpets.
And they have asps or something and are NPC inmates.

 

[Cosmos]

I would say that it's down to some people not wishing to be another person's content. We all have to accept the interference from the game, from NPCs, but we don't all have to accept interference from another sentient being in our homes, in our leisure time.

As to making the game easy mode... It shouldn't matter, even if you do believe it, since in the main, most players are not competing directly with you. Essentially, all players in whatever mode can choose the threat level they want to play at, and belittling PvE by suggesting it is easy mode is not terribly gracious. I jump into strong signal sources and distress calls with multiple waves of wings of NPCs, and they are not particularly easy, and I enjoy the challenge.

Personally I play this game for fun, for entertainment. If I was looking for something much more than that, I would probably look outside the world of computer games.

I just picked up on something here... 'interference' ? Interference to what is the questinon... So I ask you, what are these interferences you speak of?

 

[Alpha087]

Hello Commander nrage!

No ETA or guarantees but:

Hopefully at some point we will get interstellar bounties back!

We are also looking at making system security more important in terms of ship population breakdown, especially in super cruise (the goal to make the extremes of the scale well, more extreme ). This could also include response times.

What does that mean for Power Play undermining? Am I going to be wanted in all of Federation space for undermining Imperial Power Play targets in what is technically a Federation controlled system? That would kind of be nonsense, having my faction hunting me down for supporting their efforts against the Empire.

 

[shambles1980]

I just picked up on something here... 'interference' ? Interference to what is the questinon... So I ask you, what are these interferences you speak of?

i think he is referring to the game play as interference

 

[Faded Glory]

I just picked up on something here... 'interference' ? Interference to what is the questinon... So I ask you, what are these interferences you speak of?

Interferences, as in obstacles to whatever it is we have chosen to do in the game at that time, so interdictions are an interference for a player trading or smuggling. My point is that in choosing to play the game, a player has to accept the obstacles that the game throws at them, but may be less inclined to accept the attentions or obstacles coming from other people, unless they have specifically consented to them.

This was in reference to your wondering why players don't seem to mind being shot by NPCs, but do seem to mind being shot by other players.

 

[shambles1980]

Interferences, as in obstacles to whatever it is we have chosen to do in the game at that time, so interdictions are an interference for a player trading or smuggling. My point is that in choosing to play the game, a player has to accept the obstacles that the game throws at them, but may be less inclined to accept the attentions or obstacles coming from other people, unless they have specifically consented to them.

This was in reference to your wondering why players don't seem to mind being shot by NPCs, but do seem to mind being shot by other players.

what i dont get is why they all have an oppinion about pvp and open, when they only play solo or mobius.

maybe i worded that a bit strangely.

what i mean is. for some of them any human interaction would still be to much interactio. and no matter what was suggested it wouldn't be good enough. so i don't see why they come in to the threads at all.

The people that hate the "grifers" and "gankers" are always arround telling you how every thing is not good enough barring PVP off flag.
They want piracy eliminated as a game option.
they also come and tell me not to tell them how to play the game.
But they still feel the need to kick up a fuss trying to make piracy a non existent gaming choice by binging a pvp off feature to the game.
I thought it was a good idea in the past but the more you think about it the less it makes sense.
just like no loss pvp makes 0 sense.
they eliminate a play style from the game because some people do not like it.

I still think make both party's pay the rebuy if the victim was not wanted or a hostile pp player and the victim did not have "report crimes = off"
is the best course to take.

 

[DarkWalker]

I do not see any difference between a phycho and a pirate. To me they are one and the same.

While I can see a difference, as far as the result on my enjoyment of the game goes, they are truly one and the same. Meeting either of those kinds of players would utterly ruin the experience for me, no matter how "pleasant" the player pirate attempted to make the encounter.

Of course, it doesn't help that I would rather self-destruct in an Anaconda without the credits for the rebuy than let a player pirate take even a single unit of biowaste from me.

---

-Implement and foster a culture of cooperation that extends not only to crime and punishment but industry as well. NERF solo credit gain potential by as much as as 30%. Incentivize combat players to wing with traders and make sure that the wing profits 130% over the single player for their efforts.

You do know that a full wing has a 15% bonus already, right?

Anyway, I completely disagree. I purchased a game that promised me I would be able to make my own path alone. I don't want to ever feel like I need to group, or like I need the help of other players; that would make this game into something not really worth bothering with for me.

Besides, such a change isn't appropriate for Solo mode. If it were to be implemented there anyway, you would have a (expected and reasonable) complaint storm from those in Solo; if it weren't implemented in Solo, then it would just be one more reason for players to leave Open and go into Solo.

Also, keep in mind that between the halfway point of the kickstart and a month before launch this game also promised an offline mode, so you have a lot of players here that are basically not interested, at all, in dealing with others (and that have been promised that online Solo mode would be just as good for them as the offline mode would have been, apart from the need for an internet connection).

---

Whilst there are some asinine complaints about being shot at by NPCs no one has ever really offered a decent explanation as to why they take excpetion to be 'killed' by a player and not an NPC.

If you don't inherently feel the difference, then I doubt you could ever truly understand it. For many, myself included, confrontational interactions with other people are intensely distressing, whereas the exact same interaction with a NPC doesn't pose any issues.

Note, though, that consensual PvP isn't a confrontational interaction; it's more like a friendly sparring match. Thus why some of us treat consensual PvP and non-consensual PvP so differently; one is enjoyable and thrilling, the other might be cause enough to leave a game and never come back.

edit: the solo and pg are an object to this.. would you agree? And hell no, I dont want some uber clan like EvE to own the whole game...

Only if your intent is to completely ruin the game for players like me. It would require allowing players that so opt complete immunity from PvP anywhere in the galaxy to have something that could even be presented as a non-laughable alternative for Group and Solo, so unless a PvP flag that is 100% effective everywhere in the galaxy is on the table, I don't think the modes should be.

I'm not interested in interacting with players like you, and never will be.

 

[Faded Glory]

what i dont get is why they all have an oppinion about pvp and open, when they only play solo or mobius.

Well, I guess it goes both ways, as there seem to be people on the forum who have a fairly low opinion of PvE and Solo play when they only play Open...

 

[Mohrgan]

what i dont get is why they all have an oppinion about pvp and open, when they only play solo or mobius.

The opinions mostly stem from effects of PvP on their game play. There can be very little change to the game that doesn't affect players across the board. Many players that take the PvE'ers arguments up have as much PvP experience as you, and have opted out of that activity, but not the game as a whole. Once you play in Solo, or back an opinion of a PvE'er, doesn't mean that you may never PvP again. Think things through, you'll see what is obvious to others.

 

[Lheim]

The whole divide between Open/Solo/Private is kinda strange and not fit for purpose.

This is why MMOs have traditionally divided along the lines of PvP/PvE. There's a lot of confusion that results from Open/Solo/Private NOT being PvE/PvP - and it isn't, no matter how much people try to pretend that it might as well be equivalent. As it stands right now, Open is the spot to go to for both players who prefer non-competitive social play, and those who love competitive social play. There's a tremendous mismatch of desires between those various types of players.

The ideas already brought up in this thread won't necessarily address the fundamental mismatch between lovers of non-competitive and competitive social play, but they would go a long way towards making it somewhat more palatable for the non-competitive-loving players.

 

[DarkWalker]

what i dont get is why they all have an oppinion about pvp and open, when they only play solo or mobius.

Of course I have an opinion about PvP; I love PvP, as long as it's fair and everyone involved has previously agreed to fight (and no, I don't see logging into Open as agreeing to PvP, and won't until/unless an official PvE-only Open mode is added to the game).

As for Open, I can't speak for everyone here, but what attracted me here is that Sandro's post felt like he wanted to explore some of what makes Open undesirable for part of the players, and perhaps fix it; in that light, I do think the opinions of those players that stay mainly, or even only, in Solo/Mobius are relevant.

 

[Cosmos]

There are two things - first, definition of griefing for FD is very narrow one, and it boils down to repeated "pwnage" of less experienced players in certain area. Everything else is a go.

Second, however, FD want to reward 'proper' piracy (without killing victim) and punish sociopathic behavior - within limits of the game of course. Sandro ideas are taken from old discussions in DDF regarding this very same issue. There was pretty much agreement that piracy requires some kind of declaration of the act to separate it from blasting people away.

Well I'm DDF, old skool, and have been a party to all the old discussions.. There was a time when my voice was compleltely outnumbered. Now in the light of reality and day - where we have a much more diverse and representative community things are different. Please forgive typos my browser has gone nuts.

Sandro is a bit out of touch in all honesty.. I love the guy but hes forever has the back of those who want the game to be endlessly forgiving and easy. (I do really like you btw Sandro).. but when met with situations in the past where he immediately respionds to complaints of serial interdiction by ONE player, to put them on ignore.. We have to factor these things into account..

For the record I want player engagement to be meaninful and not to have vastly superior players swating noobs for fun to be aight.. Thing is.. these convos are always one sided and to be very frank the reality of my gaming expeirence is nothing that described by the PvE and SOLO gamer petitioners.

 

[Bigskill]

Hello Commanders!

Usual caveat: no guarantee, no ETA! This is just another thought experiment.

A quick question regarding player-versus-player (not AI) in open:

Currently there is no real difference between crime against AI and crime against humans.

Do folk think that additional, relatively severe in-game penalties for illegal ship destruction where there was a large disparity between rank/power of murderer to victim would be a worthwhile thing?

As an example suggestion: a high combat rank player in a combat capable ship boils a low combat rank player in a trade vessel. In addition to a bounty, the murderer is unable to dock at high security systems and suffers an increased insurance premium excess for an amount of time.

Continued offences of this nature increase and prolong the punitive measures.

Would a system like this help reconcile the two factions of the PVP and PVE, or would it not really address the issue?

Thoughts?

Honestly I think this is one of the worst idea I ever read.....
This will make people to quit the game.....
Why not to give PvP players something fun to do other than CG to fight for.... not talking about Pplay, Im talking about a large scale war between faction with objective to do, something to defend, something to fight for, but with a bonus for the winning faction.
Many People dream a Battlestar galactica fight style, just make it happend.

This kind of penality suggestion will also limit the freedom of the Galaxy.

 

[Mohrgan]

I don't much like to move off topic, and especially into another so well documented debate but, I believe the Co-Op community of players would be best served with an official PvE-Open option on the log in screen. Notifying a new player that there is a place to find a Co-Op style mode is available as they log in for the 1st time would solve the issue of posts about being blown up for no reason. Having the option to play without PvP would just be the final step in making the creed 'If you don't want PvP, don't log in open' into policy.

 

[shambles1980]

Of course I have an opinion about PvP; I love PvP, as long as it's fair and everyone involved has previously agreed to fight (and no, I don't see logging into Open as agreeing to PvP, and won't until/unless an official PvE-only Open mode is added to the game).

As for Open, I can't speak for everyone here, but what attracted me here is that Sandro's post felt like he wanted to explore some of what makes Open undesirable for part of the players, and perhaps fix it; in that light, I do think the opinions of those players that stay mainly, or even only, in Solo/Mobius are relevant.

maybe i worded that a bit strangely.

what i mean is. for some of them any human interaction would still be to much interactio. and no matter what was suggested it wouldn't be good enough. so i don't see why they come in to the threads at all.

The people that hate the "grifers" and "gankers" are always arround telling you how every thing is not good enough barring PVP off flag.
They want piracy eliminated as a game option.
they also come and tell me not to tell them how to play the game.
But they still feel the need to kick up a fuss trying to make piracy a non existent gaming choice by binging a pvp off feature to the game.
I thought it was a good idea in the past but the more you think about it the less it makes sense.
just like no loss pvp makes 0 sense.
they eliminate a play style from the game because some people do not like it.

I still think make both party's pay the rebuy if the victim was not wanted or a hostile pp player and the victim did not have "report crimes = off"
is the best course to take.

 

[DarkWalker]

The whole divide between Open/Solo/Private is kinda strange and not fit for purpose.

That might be because the Open/Solo/Private divide is not about PvP, but rather about allowing players to choose who they play with. ED, in essence, is a PvP game where the only effective way to opt out of PvP is to also completely opt out of seeing other players (as even in the supposedly PvP-free Mobius groups there have been incidents where griefers joined the group just to PvP unwilling targets). Unfortunately, because for those of us who would want the social interaction without the PvP aspect, it makes the game far worse than it could have been.

The ideas already brought up in this thread won't necessarily address the fundamental mismatch between lovers of non-competitive and competitive social play, but they would go a long way towards making it somewhat more palatable for the non-competitive-loving players.

I wouldn't say the divide is along the lines of loving competition or not, otherwise the same players that like PvP in Open would enjoy CQC even more — and, as many PvPers here can attest to, that isn't the case.

 

[Cosmos]

Will add, that I think this thread is creating a very healhty and robust debate where people can freely express their views. I've soften a little over time to my orignal view because I've listened to the concerns of everyone.. Top quality debate here guys.. keep it up

 

[Lheim]

That might be because the Open/Solo/Private divide is not about PvP, but rather about allowing players to choose who they play with. ED, in essence, is a PvP game where the only effective way to opt out of PvP is to also completely opt out of seeing other players (as even in the supposedly PvP-free Mobius groups there have been incidents where griefers joined the group just to PvP unwilling targets). Unfortunately, because for those of us who would want the social interaction without the PvP aspect, it makes the game far worse than it could have been.


I wouldn't say the divide is along the lines of loving competition or not, otherwise the same players that like PvP in Open would enjoy CQC even more — and, as many PvPers here can attest to, that isn't the case.

Eh, CQC's main problems are lack of ship/map variety and the way it's segregated to not provide real progress in the main game..

 

[Unfluffydave]

what i dont get is why they all have an oppinion about pvp and open, when they only play solo or mobius.

Ask yourself why "they" only play solo or mobius? ever considered that it is the gankers (as opposed to pvpers, there is a vast difference between the two) that could be the actual reason they only play solo or mobius now.

 

[Titus Balls]

Hello Commanders!

Usual caveat: no guarantee, no ETA! This is just another thought experiment.

A quick question regarding player-versus-player (not AI) in open:

Currently there is no real difference between crime against AI and crime against humans.

Do folk think that additional, relatively severe in-game penalties for illegal ship destruction where there was a large disparity between rank/power of murderer to victim would be a worthwhile thing?

As an example suggestion: a high combat rank player in a combat capable ship boils a low combat rank player in a trade vessel. In addition to a bounty, the murderer is unable to dock at high security systems and suffers an increased insurance premium excess for an amount of time.

Continued offences of this nature increase and prolong the punitive measures.

Would a system like this help reconcile the two factions of the PVP and PVE, or would it not really address the issue?

Thoughts?

Sandro,

On this one I think we have to somehow differentiate between what is a genuine "pirate" and someone who is just a "player killer". Now I've been know for a couple of years as someone who supports PvP. A game like this needs it, and needs very little boundaries between them - but it needs boundaries.

The core issue is, if someone wants to role play as an actual pirate - there is very little in the game to actually do this. Sure you get a bounty placed upon you if you attack a player, but there is no real punishment - all I need to do is get myself killed and those bounties go away.

A real pirate should be able to identify as so - they should not be welcome in law-abiding systems (but VERY welcome in pirate systems), and after a while should be offered missions suitable to their role (VERY high risk, but also very high opportunity missions) - they should live upon the "high seas of space" - and as such be offered a different track in life, one that is profitable to their role - and enjoyable. But also in game they have no way to easily communicate with players, or NPCs, that they want to pirate.

However someone who just goes about killing indiscriminately - well it's tough to identify from a potential pirate, but yes they should receive a high punishment for their crimes - they are literally playing the role of a murderer.

I don't have a solution - but by identifying the player types first it may help in coming up with some kind of solution that works. Maybe it's based on bounty? Maybe within signing up for a faction (i.e. a pirate faction) players have to live within a code to be a pirate? If they break that code they are not pirates but murderers? If they never sign up for the faction they are definitely murderers?

I've experienced it myself - in Merope I was interdicted and killed without any contact by the commander - they were simply there to ruin other peoples fun. A pirate should live by some kind of code.