Powerplay We need systems in place to discourage 5th Columning

Exploit. Definition. Noun.
"2.
a software tool designed to take advantage of a flaw in a computer system, typically for malicious purposes such as installing malware.
"
As for 5c. I don't think Fdev really is stupid enough to put a "designed on purpose" label on it. I would laugh at them because it ruins PP entirely.

Giant Cheese - This is as close to a definition as I could find...

"The Cheshire Mammoth Cheese was a gift from the town of Cheshire, Massachusetts to President Thomas Jeffersonin 1802. The 1234 pound cheese was created by combining the milk from every cow in the town, and made in a makeshift cheese press to handle the cheese's size. The cheese bore the Jeffersonian motto "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."

So there you have it.
 
Giant Cheese - This is as close to a definition as I could find...

"The Cheshire Mammoth Cheese was a gift from the town of Cheshire, Massachusetts to President Thomas Jeffersonin 1802. The 1234 pound cheese was created by combining the milk from every cow in the town, and made in a makeshift cheese press to handle the cheese's size. The cheese bore the Jeffersonian motto "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."

So there you have it.

Off topic. adjective & adverb. "(especially of posts on an Internet message board) not relevant to the subject in question."

Here's some ontopic stuff. Even if 5c was fixed, it would still leave open the function of allied powers to scrap each other's bad systems. I don't think that was an intended mechanic either. It's as exploitive as 5c, and can yield the fastest pp rank progression. Right now, expansions in pp is a battle between 5c and this other mechanic. Neither of which have any interphase in the pp tabs. It's totally running off the rails from intention. The rules for how expansions are suppose to work are being bypassed (exploited). Everybody wants to produce the most effect for what they do, so there is little reason to play the game as it is designed. That's why pp is a broken piece of garbage that needs to be fixed.
 
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I'd like to give a nod to Earl_Parvisjam on some good thinking, I'm with you on these:

'In order to counter a 5C attack, a faction has to outperform their efforts in at least 2 systems. For example, if they prep a system 10k, the power must coordinate prep of two systems over 10k to negate it...'
'Getting rid of 5C operations entirely isn't the issue. The issue is that the most effective tactic to derail a major power is to join them and do a crappy job. There's no compelling reason to bother with any other tactic...'
'5C tactics have become the most powerful tactic in PP....'
'My hope is that by addressing it, we can all have a dialog and look for something that will make things closer to fair for all involved.'

When I put my feelings asides as much as possible, here is what I notice:
"Fifth columning is a better strategy than playing fair in powerplay, and causes nearly-permanent damage."
That's two points. Explained separately it would be about like this:
1-When 5C prep a bad system, let's say the power has enough CCs to prep three. The 5C put 10K into a bad system. The fair players would have to put above 10K in THREE to equal their work. Thus, the 5C work is more effective.
2-The current mechanic of powerplay is to lose high-cost (typically faraway) systems during turmoil, regardless of their net profit. 5Cers need only pick a low-cost and low-profit system, and they give a loss-per-week system to a power that will not be chosen for removal during turmoil. Ergo, a 'fair player's work' is likely to be removed as good systems are further and further away from their capital. But a 5Cer's work is likely to be near-permanent.

Now, this being such an effective strategy causes these long-term negative impacts:
-Slowing down powers to a standstill, instead of dynamic opposition.
-Players who -care- for their power and like to play fair often get disgusted and leave powerplay (or the game entirely, as a matter of fact). And sure that's the 5Cer's intent but that is not good for the game as a whole.
-It is rather denaturing to a competition game, that joining a power for the purpose of hurting it is more effective than staying in the power you want to fight for. (That one is more my opinion, but I beleive it's a defendable opinion)
-Picture when more powers will come in, player groups will have put -months- of work into their NPC faction. Now they join Powerplay, 5C come in and they can't stop them and their future prospects are -wrecked- without their having a chance? That's not good for the game.

That's what I believe is wrong with the current situation and what worries me about the future.

And to stay constructive, well I'd propose to slightly change the turmoil mechanic: Instead of removing high-cost systems during turmoil, remove systems that have a low net profit (earnings-costs). That would make 5Cs work less permanent, much like an 'honest player's work and even things up a bit. (Admittedly it's not perfect, doesn't stop their work being overly effective, but it'd be a pretty simple start.)
 
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Off topic. adjective & adverb. "(especially of posts on an Internet message board) not relevant to the subject in question."

Here's some ontopic stuff. Even if 5c was fixed, it would still leave open the function of allied powers to scrap each other's bad systems. I don't think that was an intended mechanic either. It's as exploitive as 5c, and can yield the fastest pp rank progression. Right now, expansions in pp is a battle between 5c and this other mechanic. Neither of which have any interphase in the pp tabs. It's totally running off the rails from intention. The rules for how expansions are suppose to work are being bypassed (exploited). Everybody wants to produce the most effect for what they do, so there is little reason to play the game as it is designed. That's why pp is a broken piece of garbage that needs to be fixed.

I can't argue with that. Seems to sum up the current state of powerplay nicely!
 
Referring to the suggestion that power play should be done in open play, a 5Cer can collect and deliver the materials in open but travel in solo. The only way to counteract that would be to mark the cargo as invalid or stolen should the player enter any other modes of play while carrying power play materials. I imagine that may confuse and frustrate some unaware players.

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Or maybe a status can be given to the power play material that makes it less effective should the player enter solo mode or private group.
 
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Referring to the suggestion that power play should be done in open play, a 5Cer can collect and deliver the materials in open but travel in solo. The only way to counteract that would be to mark the cargo as invalid or stolen should the player enter any other modes of play while carrying power play materials. I imagine that may confuse and frustrate some unaware players.

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Or maybe a status can be given to the power play material that makes it less effective should the player enter solo mode or private group.

I don't believe it would confuse any 5C player. If you're willingly doing 5th column work, that's because you understand the mechanic and the game well...
 
I don't believe it would confuse any 5C player. If you're willingly doing 5th column work, that's because you understand the mechanic and the game well...

When I said unaware players, I meant players who are new and change modes at some point while carrying the materials.
 
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Well, when we have new players in our team, most of the time, we have to explain to them what the 5th column is and what they do...

Not every player joins a community. Some players keep to themselves or interact with only people they know in real life.

This little debate isn't contributing to the thread. I was just pointing out how one change in the game can impact different types of players, so any change has to be carefully thought through by those responsible for designing the mechanics. I took the suggestion to take power play to open mode, pointed out a loophole, then suggested how to lessen the impact of the loophole. I am all for discouraging 5C behavior. It will take critical thinking and cannot be solved by wishful thoughts alone.
 
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Well, to the 5C supporters, grats on derailing PowerPlay. I can't understand building an unofficial faction block strong enough to outmatch the concerted effort of an entire power. It's gotten to the point where it's really not worth participating in anymore.

Here's a nice example in Aisling Duval:

Chnumar is being prepped by 5C. Here's the amount of effort being put on it:

Currently at 193,621
100/hr (100 every hr) = 1,936.21 Rank 5 Man hours
48.4 people working 40 hr week

There's no counter for that. The closest amount of effort to that is sitting at 168,051. Just ponder those numbers a bit. While I understand the concept of 5C being an interesting espionage flavor, it needs something to prevent it from getting out of hand. We can't even find out who's doing it. If FD intended to create a system where players beat their collective heads against walls and eventually give up in frustration, then they've certainly outdone themselves. At this point, it takes a masochist to enjoy watching a completely anonymous group hijack a power and rush it headlong toward a cliff.
 
It's just plain stupid that you shouldn't have more than 100 preparations to have a system to prepare. We're approaching the 200K mark. But I'm sure some are going to reply that this is perfectly normal and heck, we just had to not sit on our rear end...

So, those from the 5th C, don't bother replying to defend it. I can already see your reply.
 
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That would make it more interesting, but I can't see that ever happening. It goes against the core of the game.

And yet removing player interaction would go against major factors of powerplay, namely undermining and opposing expansion.

Those two things are forms of direct PvP. If we can undermine and oppose expansion, we should have the option of attacking 5C players, even if it means being able to invade a player in solo much like Diablo 2 or Dark Souls.
 
Here is a thought. If you prep a system that has a negative, or will result in a negative CC, your cooldown for getting materials is locked at 24 hours.

People can still use prepping bad systems as part of 5C, if you are solo and don't know how the game works you now have incentive to figure out what you are doing, and it is not such a big change that it changes the entire functioning of solo/open or powerplay. A 24 hour cool down allows the actual progressive actions of the powerplay team to counter 5C however in a much more reasonable manner. If the progressive team is out maneuvered then it's realistic within the game.

To me, it is more immersive, in that a power would discourage such actions in its supporters, especially in such an overt manner as with this cycle and AD, instead of turning a blind eye to an obvious bad prep/expansion.
 
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