Should there be an 'Open' Player Vs Environment Option on the Login Screen

Should there be an 'Open' Player Vs Environment Option on the Start Screnn

  • Yes

    Votes: 638 55.4%
  • No

    Votes: 514 44.6%

  • Total voters
    1,152
  • Poll closed .
Non-consentual PvE? Are you reading what you're typing, or are you just being contrary by instinct? I'm reminded of Groucho Marx:



And 'roleplay' is a terrible, terribly stupid 'reason' to go around indiscriminately murdering. Let's send these roleplay psychopaths heartfelt mourning letters from religious parents asking them to come back into the fold and see how they react, okay?

No I'm not. You find it fine to engage and blow up NPC ships but not ok for someone to interdict and blow your ship up. Directly contradicting yourself there, it's weird to me.

I'm not advocating that everyone roleplay a psycho. I'm saying RPing in general creates a more positive community for everyone. Please read people's posts before you start throwing "stupid" around.
 
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Alright, but I still say if we can have roleplay psychopaths, we can have the NPCs roleplaying competent murderous swat teams and army units to take them down.
 
Alright, but I still say if we can have roleplay psychopaths, we can have the NPCs roleplaying competent murderous swat teams and army units to take them down.

This. I want this as well. (sort of) I want there to be dire consequences for certain actions in game. The crime system needs to be overhauled (much better use of Dev time than making another save file that splits the communty even more)

I'll leave you all to it. I said everything I wanted to. Much <3 to all my fellow CMDRs out there. Fly safe o7
 
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This. I want this as well. (sort of) I want there to be dire consequences for certain actions in game. The crime system needs to be overhauled (much better use of Dev time than making another save file that splits the communty even more)

I'll leave you all to it. I said everything I wanted to. Much <3 to all my fellow CMDRs out there. Fly safe o7

You and I can both agree on revamped crime and punishment, regardless of 'open pve'. Matter of fact, revamped crime and punishment MIGHT just take away some of the impulse for the open pve - might. Can't say for sure; that's a super grey area and depends hugely on specifics.
 
I don't see why not, also those posters are not RPing at all, they are just saying they go around and kill people for no reason. I've personally never seen anyone open comms and start yelling like a maniac saying they are going to blow me up.

If the main drive is to get away from the possibility of non-consensual PvP (but non-consensual PvE is fine /boggle) that seems to go against the most base-line idea of what this game is. It just blows my mind that people would let the game they love get watered down like that. Anyway I'm digressing. And if that is indeed the reason behind it, then I really would say play in Mobius and let the Devs focus on fixing and making better content for all of us, not just some of us.

I don't really think there's such a thing as non-consensual PvE, no. I buy the game, the game creates content for me. If I don't like said content, I don't play the game. Pretty simple really.

The game does not provide PvP content for anyone, players engage in it if they want to, and that's the only reason for doing it, so if I am in an environment where it is allowed and it happens even though I'd rather it didn't, it's non-consensual. I can either stop playing the game, or, since it's not actually provided / instigated by the game I can ask for an alternative.

That's why there is the suggestion that a game created Open PvE would allow players to explicitly consent to taking part in PvP by selecting the standard Open group rather than the Open PvE group where PvP cannot happen.

I guess the psycho-killers are the strong silent type then... ;) But I guess it shows the difficulty in deciding whether someone is RPing or not.

I do not fear "those who don't enjoy it's current state" leaving open, I fear that "those who don't enjoy it's current state because there is not enough PvP in it" will then impose their PvP-only view on "those who enjoy it's current state" using the argument "if you don't want to do PvP everytime, why don't you go in PvE ?"

If you got what you want, aka "Open PvE", please, give "them" an "Open PvP" and keep "Open Mixed" http://reho.st/http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/fight.gif

Fair enough. Not sure that would be any different than Open is now, with the players who want more PvP engaging in it whenever and wherever possible as it is allowed, but whatever, if that's what you'd like I'd have no problem with it. :)
 
Stupid poll. To create a pve only open would create extra admin overhead and use resources frontier doesn't have. It would also scare new people away from actual open. Dumb idea. Stop it

SO much overhead for the other modes? There would be no difference in the end. Remove friendly fire, remove collision detection between PC ships...problem solved. Add either an Open flag or a new mode completely....done in a few months. 20 thousand players rejoice immediately.
 
SO much overhead for the other modes? There would be no difference in the end. Remove friendly fire, remove collision detection between PC ships...problem solved. Add either an Open flag or a new mode completely....done in a few months. 20 thousand players rejoice immediately.

Guessing when they can do that it will be added to group as that was what was suppose to happen according to KS isn't it?
 
Here's an interesting comment on the subject from Erimus back in the pre-alpha days, which seems to back up my point quite nicely.: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6521&page=5&p=127018&viewfull=1#post127018

I very much disagree with him on that "everyone agrees" part. For a few reasons.

First, UO added new servers under the old rules, the Siege Perilous servers. The only reason they aren't ghost towns is because there is about one of those for each dozen or so normal servers; most players aren't interested in the old rules, and thus avoid the Siege Perilous servers while flocking to the Trammel part of the normal servers.

Second, UO is not only ongoing, but still seeing expansions, sixteen years after Trammel was added; not only that, but the game doubled its player base shortly after adding Trammel. If Trammel was as bad as the post you quoted made it appear, the game would have long ago either closed down or reversed the decision to add Trammel.

Third, almost every UO-era player I am friendly with thinks adding Trammel was the single best thing to happen to that game. Though, of course, by definition I'm not on friendly terms with anyone that would attack another player unprovoked, as I see that kind of player as no better than a griefer.

Fourth, the dev that was implemented Trammel was actually hired to close down UO. Back then, either the game solved it's player retention problem or it would be closed down. Trammel is what solved that problem when everything else the devs attempted failed, so without it UO would have closed down over a decade ago.

Lastly, the following MMO generation, including WoW, had UO devs in key positions in almost every important studio; the guy tasked with designing WoW's PvP, for example, was a UO veteran. And none of those games followed in old UO's footsteps; they all started more similar to post-trammel UO than to early UO. Shows that not even those old UO devs thought pre-Trammel UO could work anymore.

BTW, I would recommend paying more attention to what professional MMO devs have to say about Trammel than to what a random player has to say. For example, Damion Schubert, who started working with MMOs back in 1995; Gordon Walter, the PvP enthusiast who was the Executive Producer of UO when Trammel was added; or Lum the Mad, a MMO blogger that became so well known and respected among developers that he was offered jobs designing MMOs in multiple studios.
 
You can use that same advice and play in Mobius or any other non PvP group currently without taking time away from devs to change something that already exists!


As a pirate by trade, creating another split in the playerbase where an entire "blaze your own trail" "job" is against the rules is a bad thing to me.

Splitting the playerbase up more in general is a bad thing imo.

My opinion on the underlying issue (jerks that just attack without even opening a com) -- Make RPing mandatory. It would help much more and frankly make the social interactions so much better.


...andyet, people in Mobius have died at the hands of griefers.

That...and see my above opinions of the Mobius group. Nearing 20k players whose experience is controlled by a single player? That is insanity in any companies view.

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Guessing when they can do that it will be added to group as that was what was suppose to happen according to KS isn't it?


Someday™ it could occur. These ideas are from the idea of rulesets and public groups from KS.

The problem with the idea of Someday™ and Soon™ is that player desire to play a game...might turn these time frames into...No One Cares™.
 
But he is content, just because you don't like it doesn't mean he isn't. Random encounters in a jrpg are content; you might just want to walk to the other side of a room and open a treasure chest but lo and behold you take two steps, the screen goes black and you're dumped into a random fight. NPC interdictions in ED are content, you might want to do whatever but you get interdicted. Same with player interdictions and piracy.
He is not content. NPCs interdicting me are content; another player doing the same is just someone trying to ruin my experience, and I will treat that other player accordingly.

Sounds like you just have an aversion to any sort of obstacle or difficulty that comes your way.
Nope. I play games on the hardest difficulty, and often add handicaps atop that; been playing games for decades after all, so I find most of the current offerings too easy. What I won't tolerate are killjoys trying to ruin my experience.

But there is a trade off; they can't be right at the front, they can't feel the heat of the pyrotechnics on their brow they sacrifice half the experience to just sit miles away from the show, probably drinking carlsberg out of a massive plastic cup that cost them a tenner, barely able to see anything.
Of course there is a trade off. In PvE you don't get to shoot other players, neither innocent players that should be protected nor jerks that deserve whatever comes their way; that is the trade off.

Though, of course, for actual PvE players it isn't a trade off at all; what they are giving up is something they never wanted anyway, and what they get in return is very valuable for them. Like me when going to a show; I don't like feeling the pyrotechnics on my face, I find being in the middle of the standing crowd unsettling, being far from the stage means that I can see everything that happens on the stage at once instead of being forced to concentrate on some small detail and miss the rest (and I can always bring opera glasses or something similar if I want to notice the details), and there's also my issue with loud music; by staying in the seated section I basically "sacrifice" the parts of the experience that are worthless for me anyway, and reinforce the parts of the experience I find enjoyable, just like when I play in a PvE mode I'm throwing away the parts of the "experience" that are utterly worthless for me anyway and reinforcing the ones that do have value for me.

You'll get tons of incidents where people get auto kicked for accidentally shooting someone who strays into their line of fire. Not to mention the people that will go out of their way to fly into your line of fire to banish you from safe space.
Which is why my preference is for simply inverting the damage. Make it so that in a PvE mode any damage you would cause to another player is instead inflicted on you. With this, some griefer flying in the line of fire of another player would merely cause that player to lose a little shield, with no further consequences.

Yep, it's gamey. But, of course, a PvE mode is by definition gamey, though that isn't any problem for those that want a PvE mode. Also, the "gamey" element will only make itself visible for the players that want to go against the intent of the mode anyway, and those don't deserve to be rewarded — not even with immersion.




We already have a sorta-kinda open pve mode, though. AND a real PvE only mode in Solo. The fright is that making something so attractive as co-op mode much more visible would cause ruin to pvp mode.
Which is why I don't think an Open PvE mode would remove too many players from Open. There are already options, even if not quite satisfactory. Many, likely most, of the players that would leave Open have already left.

And, in any case, if it does cause such an exodus that Open becomes unfeasible, that would tell a lot about whether players enjoyed Open or not...




no they just have to maintain expansions sales to keep a static profit margin, or increase future sales and expansion sales, to increase their profit margins...

Adding such a mode may well 'induce' more people to buy into the franchise, and in doing so result in more future expansion sales down the line...
Or, just as good, avoid driving away the players that want just the positive social interaction without the negative one. A player that is still in the game is a potential customer for expansions, paint jobs, and whatever else the devs decide to add to the cash store; a player that was driven out of the game not only isn't, he is potentially someone doing negative word of mouth.




Absolutely not. How badly broken would that immersion be. I can shoot this ship but when I shoot your ship my lasers turn into a stick with a flag on the end of it that says "bang"?
If you enter an Open PvE mode with the intent of firing at other players, you deserve to have your immersion broken.

If you don't enter an Open PvE mode with the intent of firing at other players, you will never have what you described happen to you.

So, where is the issue?
 
Interesting, Gordon Walter's definition of griefer. "A griefer is somebody who, through their social actions, costs you more money than he gives you." - That's the developer's perspective.

In other words, it's worth it to boot certain types of players out the door. And worth it to provide a place for people who don't enjoy being ganked to not get ganked. And worth it to spend money moderating yer playerbase, too. Conversely, a pvp or griefer type player simply isn't punished much by dying - be it by npc or by other players; they thrive on it.
 
​Nobody can be forced to be someone else's 'content'.


Let me get this straight in my mind. What you are saying us that it is ok with you that I play in PvE Mobius... While at the same time it is NOT OK with you to consider an official PvE mode sanctioned by FD?

Wait!
What?

Run that past me again...

Sorry, the arguments in this thread are turning circular and repetitive... have fun people :)
 
:D

But no, the worst nightmares aren't those filled with monsters, they are the ones that start like dreams with someone/something you love but end with her/him/it being taken away from you.

That vision (splitting Open in PvP only/PvE only) is the worst thing I can imagine for Elite. Yes, even worst than another PowerPlay-like implementation of a new gameplay.


see my previous answers, the message I was quoting is just proving my previous points:


So, what I get is basically because you feel no one would log into open who wasn't ready for PvP. Fracturing a player base that has already left open? How would that affect the population of open? A Co-Op mode would allow the PvE type players to defragement, and enjoy the largest group area available. Instead you insist they be spread out over many PG's just to avoid PvP. Player interaction held hostage by FD for the ransom of PvP.

You prove my point that player interactions are the carrot that draws the donkey right into open and finds the stick, which is PvP. Vote with your clicks. Don't be FD's sacrifice to the PvP alter. Boycott open, until there is a viable PvP alternative.
 
Sorry, the arguments in this thread are turning circular and repetitive... have fun people :)
It's because there is a conflict at a very basic level.

I won't be content for anyone else, you consider offering oneself as content for others as necessary and good for the game; I consider using content or features players desire as enticement to get them playing content they dislike as something not quite ethical, and very damaging for the game, while you see it as necessary for balance; I see PvP encounters as fundamentally different from PvE ones, and non-consensual PvP as something that ruins any game where it happens, while you consider being attacked by a player as no different than being attacked by a NPC and non-consensual PvP as something that spices up an otherwise boring game; and so on.

I'm never going to convince you, you are never going to convince me. We have fundamentally different convictions.

Which is a big part of why I believe a PvE mode is needed. I'm not going to ever enjoy a game mode you enjoy; you are never going to ever enjoy a game mode I enjoy. A single mode for us both will never work since making you happy would make me unhappy and vice versa. Hence, it's far better to just separate us into different modes and be done with it, instead of trying tweak after ineffective tweak while chasing after some mythical perfect mode that can please all players all the time.
 
So, what I get is basically because you feel no one would log into open who wasn't ready for PvP. Fracturing a player base that has already left open? How would that affect the population of open? A Co-Op mode would allow the PvE type players to defragement, and enjoy the largest group area available. Instead you insist they be spread out over many PG's just to avoid PvP. Player interaction held hostage by FD for the ransom of PvP.

You prove my point that player interactions are the carrot that draws the donkey right into open and finds the stick, which is PvP. Vote with your clicks. Don't be FD's sacrifice to the PvP alter. Boycott open, until there is a viable PvP alternative.

I'm sorry, maybe it's because English is not my native langage, but I have not understand most of your post, so I'll try to answer on the rest.

What I insist on is very, very, very simple:

- fixing the crime & punishment should take priority on everything else (related to this thread I mean)
- if a PvE only mode is officially created, do not split open in two (PvE only & PvP only) but in three (PvE only, mixed, PvP only)
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
I'm sorry, maybe it's because English is not my native langage, but I have not understand most of your post, so I'll try to answer on the rest.

What I insist on is very, very, very simple:

- fixing the crime & punishment should take priority on everything else (related to this thread I mean)
- if a PvE only mode is officially created, do not split open in two (PvE only & PvP only) but in three (PvE only, mixed, PvP only)

Open, as it is, is already mixed PvP and PvE. The issue is that there is, in Open, the possibility of PvP - which is unwanted by some players, therefore an Open-PvE mode is requested.

For there to be an Open-PvP-Only mode, NPCs would need to be removed - therefore it would be very, very nearly empty....
 
Open, as it is, is already mixed PvP and PvE. The issue is that there is, in Open, the possibility of PvP - which is unwanted by some players, therefore an Open-PvE mode is requested.

For there to be an Open-PvP-Only mode, NPCs would need to be removed - therefore it would be very, very nearly empty....

By "PvP only" I mean that social interaction between players when they meet will be limited to PvP combat.
 
I'm sorry, maybe it's because English is not my native langage, but I have not understand most of your post, so I'll try to answer on the rest.

What I insist on is very, very, very simple:

- fixing the crime & punishment should take priority on everything else (related to this thread I mean)
- if a PvE only mode is officially created, do not split open in two (PvE only & PvP only) but in three (PvE only, mixed, PvP only)


Fixing 'Crime and Punishment' will only satisfy those that play in open, and are miffed at the number of times they get attacked by a player for no reason. The idea being that the casual griefer would take a second thought on blowing up that Sidewinder due to the penalties. They won;t stop the committed griefer, the ones that enter PG's to kill players who don;t expect it, those that stalk the newbie zones to educate those that aren't aware of open's potential, and the 'Content' creators who favorite brushes are weapons. The punitive measures considered won;t bring the PvE minded back into open. Punishment, after the fact just won;t cut it for many.

Offering a Mode that restricts PvP doesn't automatically make open a PvP only zone. It will still be exactly what it is now. IF you go for that kind of thing. The PvP only mode, we already have mind you, is called CQC. If fighting other willing and equally capable Commanders on a level playing field isn't PvP enough, I can't help you.

Open is the defacto PvP Mode now. You see it proclaimed all over the place. "If you don;t like PvP, play in Solo". "If you want a place to hide you have Mobius." Do those snippets sound familiar? It's not the available options that twisted open into the PvP zone, it's the lack of civility in certain quarters.

The Community is already split. Look at the silly little Poll attached to this thread. A PvE open would only allow the portion of the player base to coalesce in the environment they/we always hoped open could be. Instead of being spread out in private groups, and solo those looking for a Co-Op way of playing would be satisfied.

Vote with your Clicks. Boycott open until a viable PvE option is offered.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
By "PvP only" I mean that social interaction between players when they meet will be limited to PvP combat.

It is possible that Open would end up that way, i.e. PvP-only, in time anyway - depending on whether any meaningful consequences for PKing are ever introduced.

One of the worst things that happened to Open was the limitation of "wanted" status to the system that issued the bounty. The Major Faction bounties weren't introduced - so players could simply move one system over and start again as if with a clean sheet. Not much of a deterrent.
 
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