Yes PVP is unfair.

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Ultima Online got it right 20 years ago... there are blue players (good standing) and red players (bad standing).
You see a red contact, you know it's trouble. You see a blue one you can assume it's friendly enough, and you can approach and say "hi" with a reasonable chance of not being greeted back by railgun shots... :D

You kill a blue player once, you turn red. The more you kill them, the more red you get.
You can go back to being blue, but it takes effort.

Red players are attacked on sight by security NPCs, and so are restricted to live in "red" areas of space, which could be anarchy systems in Elite.

Interesting....

Presumably the same system that instantly tells our scanners that a particular target warrants a hollow marker could also pass on the standing of the CMDR in question too.
 
It would appear that FD may need to think up some kind of interdictor countermeasures devices.

Emergency stop SHOULD work since if you suddenly drop out the attacker simply overshoots.

Just double tap the Frameshift Ignition.

Or perhaps turn off Framshift Drive from Modules Menu.
 
Ultima Online got it right 20 years ago... there are blue players (good standing) and red players (bad standing).
You see a red contact, you know it's trouble. You see a blue one you can assume it's friendly enough, and you can approach and say "hi" with a reasonable chance of not being greeted back by railgun shots... :D

You kill a blue player once, you turn red. The more you kill them, the more red you get.
You can go back to being blue, but it takes effort.

Red players are attacked on sight by security NPCs, and so are restricted to live in "red" areas of space, which could be anarchy systems in Elite.

GTA Online has a similar system. The more aggressive a player is, the more red their icon is, and you get bonus rewards for taking them out.
 

dxm55

Banned
The argument, recently made here, that "space should be dangerous" is misleading, because it depends on a perception of space travel and of the in-game universe that is by definition created solely for the purposes of this specific game.

Space travel is dangerous by nature, and will always be so - even with ED-style technology - because space as an environment is intrinsically hostile to life (as we know it). But that's an environmental danger. The argument here in the endless PVP/griefing/ganking/carebear threads is whether or not spacefaring society should be dangerous. And that, of course, depends on our choices as players. Nothing intrinsic about the game - not the way it's built, not the way FD or DBOBE himself intended it - and certainly nothing intrinsic about space as an environment, requires that we be dangerous to each other.

All right: I'm a pacifist, the ultimate carebear, with unrealistically optimistic hopes for humanity's ability to civilise itself. I accept that too many people still find too much fun in attacking each other - and I accept that a certain number of players (though I wager the proportion isn't as high as they like to make out) find fun in being attacked. But I realise that, much as I think it'd be great if we could, we're not going to improve tribal and conflict-orientated human nature in a computer game.

But don't think that the conditions we might want to apply in a computer game - unrestrained violence and person-provided danger at every turn - are anything to do with how realistic the game's idea of the future is. Why, for example, in such a technological society, would we even be manually flying ships from A to B just to carry cargo? I know I've said before that I want to play truck-driver-in-space, but I'm not for one moment arguing it's realistic to do so. Nothing about this argument is about what's realistic. It's solely about how we, collectively, want to play a computer game in 2016.

As for piracy, I agree with TJCC: the 'pirate' thing has become tedious. Yes, DBOBE might have intended for players to be able to 'roleplay pirates', and that's fine - but I don't honestly think he intended for it to become the crux of the Open game, as it seems it has. The fact that the dispute keeps recurring on the forums over and over and over again suggests that the state of PVP in this game is problematic. It's not, I think, what was intended by the game's designers - hence the stated vision for 'meaningful' and world-consistent PVP hasn't withstood the game's release to players who don't want meaningful PVP, others for whom PVP is only fun if someone else isn't enjoying it, and still others who don't want PVP at all.

ED tried to be all things to all people, and it was a great attempt, but it hasn't worked. You cannot cater to both groups equally in the same open universe. Yes, we can patch and sticky-plaster it with legal consequences and more fines and bounties and suchlike, but in the end these'll only be part measures. If Open play is important to FD then an Open PVE mode is essential. We see it's essential from the popularity of Mobius (which, for those agitating for mandatory PVP on the basis that it's needed to produce 'emergent gameplay', is an example of 'emergent gameplay'). But this is loading the responsibility for keeping a massive chunk of the player base happy onto one public-spirited player who can't be expected to remain public-spirited forever.

Yes, the game's called Elite: Dangerous, as PVP players constantly remind us. But aside from that being a pretty meaningless title (akin to calling a war game Colonel: Captain), the well-worn, PVP-centred interpretation of that title is inconsistent with what FD and DBOBE initially indicated the game was supposed to be, which was an open game you could play the way you wanted to play.


I doubt the human race will ever become the Utopia of civility that you hope for, even if we progress towards a technological singularity. Our human nature doesn't bode well for the type of society you speak of. As long as there's a new/wild frontier in space, expect to see lawlessness like the Wild West or pirate-era Carribean, to a certain degree. And even in established space, I'd expect to see a society more like the Twelve Colonies in BSG, the reimagined series, rather than Star Trek. It's a more realistic expectation.

The best way forward for the game's mechanism to protect against players who PVP for sport would simply be to increase law enforcement levels in core systems, as well as higher population/tech or security systems to such an extent that any sort of unwarranted attack on another ship would attract so much police reaction that the perp would himself be at a high risk of being destroyed.

Couple that with heavy bounties and fines, extended durations for wanted status, and null and void insurance buyback for losing a ship... killing for sport would simply become an expensive and self defeating endeavor. Mechanisms have been proposed earlier in the thread, if you can be bothered to go back and read.

Piracy, is different from PvP for sport, because the perp does it primarily for role play, and profit from your cargo. Killing you is not desired, and is usually a consequence of an encounter gone sour. Still, with a hardened crime and punishment system, pirates are prob gonna find it hard to ply their trade in the more established systems.

Lastly, there should still be a place for piracy and PVP for sport. It'll probably be in the anarchy or frontier systems, where law enforcement will be lax or non existent. These are the places where the average traders and explorers might want to think carefully about before treading into. Does the profit outweigh the risks? Do you come armed, sacrificing cargo space? Should you get a couple of friends, heavily armed and buffed as escorts?


I think that if the game can reach that state, then we'll have a nice balance of playstyles that will suit everyone.
 
I doubt the human race will ever become the Utopia of civility that you hope for, even if we progress towards a technological singularity. Our human nature doesn't bode well for the type of society you speak of. As long as there's a new/wild frontier in space, expect to see lawlessness like the Wild West or pirate-era Carribean, to a certain degree. And even in established space, I'd expect to see a society more like the Twelve Colonies in BSG, the reimagined series, rather than Star Trek. It's a more realistic expectation.

The best way forward for the game's mechanism to protect against players who PVP for sport would simply be to increase law enforcement levels in core systems, as well as higher population/tech or security systems to such an extent that any sort of unwarranted attack on another ship would attract so much police reaction that the perp would himself be at a high risk of being destroyed.

Couple that with heavy bounties and fines, extended durations for wanted status, and null and void insurance buyback for losing a ship... killing for sport would simply become an expensive and self defeating endeavor. Mechanisms have been proposed earlier in the thread, if you can be bothered to go back and read.

Piracy, is different from PvP for sport, because the perp does it primarily for role play, and profit from your cargo. Killing you is not desired, and is usually a consequence of an encounter gone sour. Still, with a hardened crime and punishment system, pirates are prob gonna find it hard to ply their trade in the more established systems.

Lastly, there should still be a place for piracy and PVP for sport. It'll probably be in the anarchy or frontier systems, where law enforcement will be lax or non existent. These are the places where the average traders and explorers might want to think carefully about before treading into. Does the profit outweigh the risks? Do you come armed, sacrificing cargo space? Should you get a couple of friends, heavily armed and buffed as escorts?


I think that if the game can reach that state, then we'll have a nice balance of playstyles that will suit everyone.

It is highly unlikely that the pattern of any future colonisation of space will follow the foundation myths of particular 21st-century states, that's for sure.
 

dxm55

Banned
It is highly unlikely that the pattern of any future colonisation of space will follow the foundation myths of particular 21st-century states, that's for sure.

It's hard to say. The future might still be run by nations states like today, or corporations like depicted in EVE or a number of dystopian sci-fi stories. Corporations already have huge influencing and lobbying power in Govts, and are already overtaking the space race. It's only a matter of time before they will be the powers that be. It's disturbing, but all too true.

Right after the exploration of space will come the colonization and exploitation of space. Profit and material wants is what drives us forward.

If anything else, I don't subscribe to the utopian altruistic societies depicted in those hopeful sci-fi myths. I see a darker and more realistic dystopian future.
 
This thread did a good job coming back to the topic, from the dark depths of the old "PvP vs PvE" argument.

Cant really agree there since the topic is not about PVE VS PVP but rather about immersive crime and punishment in a simulated society where we have high security systems and anarchy systems but we notice no real ingame difference between the two.
 
I like the idea of interdiction countermeasures. How about an EMP blast that shreds the attackers' shields and weapons for ten seconds with one hit? Gives you a 10 second head start to frameshift out of the area, or at least turn round to face them if you want to fight it out. I hate the way you get most of your shields wiped out before you can even turn around after dropping out of supercruise. Then it's a bit of a one-sided fight after that. Even trying to run gets you pretty shredded before the FSD kicks in, and you're then easy prey for the next inevitable interdiction before you reach your destination.

The interdiction process favours the attacker every time if you don't manage to escape. Anything to help even the battle would be high on my list of mods.
 
What you propose does not stop the Wing mate of the interdictor dropping in after the interdictee has dropped the energy bomb and dropping one of their own....
Ah I see your point CMDR.... These Griever/Troll CMDR's sound just as cunning as their previous counter parts the Thargiods.... But do not worry unlike their Thargiod counter parts these Griever/Troll CMDR's wont have had their fear glands removed. Meaning the first Griever/Troll CMDR will be considered expendable and wont be carrying an Energy Bomb. This is where we must use subterfuge... we must quickly send out a message saying "God Darn It, I forgot my Energy Bomb" or "Help, help someone help please.... I forgot my Energy Bomb." This will fool these Griever/Troll CMDR's in to coming out of super-cruise then......... BOOM....... Energy Bomb time and that's how we did it in the good old days Subterfuge and Energy Bomb works every time....
Now I think of it this tactic may work in favor for that nice pirate CMDR's whats his name again..... Ah my memory's not as good as it use to be.... Ah excalibus.... yes that's it. As this will allow nice pirates to message "Muwhahahaha..... I am a nice pirate, hand over your cargo or I will tell you bad jokes all the way to the station" now if you're heading to Hutton Orbital this could be very bad indeed....

Fly Safe CMDR o7
 
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Ah I see your point CMDR.... These Griever/Troll CMDR's sound just as cunning as their previous counter parts the Thargiods.... But do not worry unlike their Thargiod counter parts these Griever/Troll CMDR's wont have had their fear glands removed. Meaning the first Griever/Troll CMDR will be considered expendable and wont be carrying an Energy Bomb. This is where we must use subterfuge... we must quickly send out a message saying "God Darn It, I forgot my Energy Bomb" or "Help, help someone help please.... I forgot my Energy Bomb." This will fool these Griever/Troll CMDR's in to coming out of super-cruise then......... BOOM....... Energy Bomb time and that's how we did it in the good old days Subterfuge and Energy Bomb works every time....
Now I think of it this tactic may work in favor for that nice pirate CMDR's whats his name again..... Ah my memory's not as good as it use to be.... Ah excalibus.... yes that's it. As this will allow nice pirates to message "Muwhahahaha..... I am a nice pirate, hand over your cargo or I will tell you bad jokes all the way to the station" now if you're heading to Hutton Orbital this could be very bad indeed....

Fly Safe CMDR o7

yarrrr be wary of my my pinapple pickled parrot, he hands me the big bad book of big bad jokes on those long lonley dark nigfhts in the black, and I am well versed in it's contents...

I promise though to not start reciting Vogon poetry... I would not put anyone through that not for a Clipper full of Platinum.
 
Cant really agree there since the topic is not about PVE VS PVP but rather about immersive crime and punishment in a simulated society where we have high security systems and anarchy systems but we notice no real ingame difference between the two.

Soooo did you read how I said it got back away from PvE vs PvP, after being dragged into that mess?
 

dxm55

Banned
I like the idea of interdiction countermeasures. How about an EMP blast that shreds the attackers' shields and weapons for ten seconds with one hit? Gives you a 10 second head start to frameshift out of the area, or at least turn round to face them if you want to fight it out. I hate the way you get most of your shields wiped out before you can even turn around after dropping out of supercruise. Then it's a bit of a one-sided fight after that. Even trying to run gets you pretty shredded before the FSD kicks in, and you're then easy prey for the next inevitable interdiction before you reach your destination.

The interdiction process favours the attacker every time if you don't manage to escape. Anything to help even the battle would be high on my list of mods.

An easier way might be some kind of device which either
- gives a bonus to the bigger ship in terms of the blue/red bar in the interdiction minigame. Simply slapping it on (and taking up an internal slot) will give the defending ship a stat boost.

- A device that fires off in the utility mount, just like chaff, which boosts the bar upwards by a certain percentage. Well timed use, along with a good stick hand in the minigame, will allow even a large freighter to evade the smallest of interdicting ship.
 
I think the pirate thing has become tedious. They hunt in packs of large well armed ships jumping anything in sight just to destroy them. I recently did two community goals and was destroyed twice. They didn't ask for cargo, in one case my 168 tons of cargo was worth less than a reload, they just attacked. They just use their firepower and numbers to destroy the ships and, to quote Douglas Adams, probably brag about it in bars. It means to do any trading, smuggling or community goals, the only way is Solo which means ED ceases to be a community game which I thought it was. I'm not unhappy to fight if I think I might have half a chance but against numbers my Clipper isn't up to it. I don't think there is an answer that will work for all.



What I'm hearing is ," I can't survive against numbers". No, no you cannot.

The universal answer is that      happens. You band together, hire help, take the long way or alternatively, get unlucky and blown up. Without the freedoms to do those things there is no answer and no question. It's as simple as that.
 
What I'm hearing is ," I can't survive against numbers". No, no you cannot.

The universal answer is that      happens. You band together, hire help, take the long way or alternatively, get unlucky and blown up. Without the freedoms to do those things there is no answer and no question. It's as simple as that.

Safety in numbers, the law of the jungle, kill or be killed... All of which is fine, as long as we know that's what the game's about. And then we can go play something else because this game has no structure resembling the universe it's trying to portray.

Or we can just play Solo where threat seems more consistent with the environment and makes infinitely more sense.
 
Safety in numbers, the law of the jungle, kill or be killed... All of which is fine, as long as we know that's what the game's about. And then we can go play something else because this game has no structure resembling the universe it's trying to portray.

Or we can just play Solo where threat seems more consistent with the environment and makes infinitely more sense.

And what is the structure of the universe?
 
What I'm hearing is ," I can't survive against numbers". No, no you cannot.

The universal answer is that      happens. You band together, hire help, take the long way or alternatively, get unlucky and blown up. Without the freedoms to do those things there is no answer and no question. It's as simple as that.

The point many are making isn't that being ganked by greater numbers should not happen it is that it should not happen without a long term legal and pilots federation reaction esp in hi sec space and that this reaction should actually mean something.

And those prats exploiting holes in the game ai by ramming in the NFZ getting the station to go crazy on the victim should be put into their own instance as DB said they would.
 
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