Why small ship maneuverability is useless Pt.1

[Saiidin]

Can a skilled pilot in a small ship take out an incompetent pilot in a large ship? Yes.

If pilots are of equal skill, does the ship which costs more in time and effort to get have an advantage? Yes.

Is this generally the way the world works? Yes.


I'm having trouble seeing the problem here.

 

[GJ51]

This is a second post versus Another One started 7+ hours earlier. Maybe the OP didn't like the way the first post was going as in not going to happen.

If at first you don't succeed...

 

[goemon]

while i like the chart and post, which describes a problem, courier, dbs and imperial eagle are in reality faster than all medium and large ships (besides the clipper, but including FDL), especially in combat builds. so, there are faster small ships. not in the budget of eagle or viper, but in the 10 mio credit range.

also, this situation massively changes with wings. against a wing of player flown eagles, reversing might be a valid tactic in a clipper or FDL, but not in a python or conda. in a clipper or FDL, a wing of 2 couriers or or 2 DBS can circle the FAOFF turning larger ship. so, bring a friend!

i wouldn't recommend it, because you won't have the firepower to get down a FDL's shields or a clippers hull in time - but that's another story.

 

[Soliluna]

Here's the thing. I like the viper, there just isn't any point to it. Why suffer through those small hardpoints and that distributor when I can have the same speed, handling and more firepower and armor in an FdL or FAS? The ships are homogeneous, the same thing in bigger sizes, they need to be different. That can be done without making the small ships unkillable and the big ships easy prey (I always love how people pretend a viper could ever kill anything bigger unless the anything bigger let it.) making small ships boost faster than they do, even significantly faster will give them a whole new feel and niche in the game without upsetting any of the balance we currently have, there will just be a reason to keep piloting them.

Have to agree with this and the OP. No nerfs to the larger ships, but some more manoeuvrability for smaller ships and greater speed.

 

[GJ51]

I remember a certain CMDR taking out anything that flew around Lave while in a Viper.

I bet 90% + of the posters here don't remember that one.

He got me in a full battle Python one night.

Too funny

I never knew what hit me until he revealed himself and his tactics several weeks later. Everyone swore he was hacking the game because he understood tactics far better than us noobs back then.

 

[Ziljan]

This is a second post versus Another One started 7+ hours earlier. Maybe the OP didn't like the way the first post was going as in not going to happen.

This isn't really a large vs small ship thread, or an Eagle thread. It's more about how agility is useless as a balancing factor regardless of ship size. Small ships tend to be more agile, but larger agile ships with "glass jaws" are equally useless at turning wars. Any ship, no matter how slow or lumbering can effectively counter the agility of smaller ships by using FAoff + reverse. Hence agility is meaningless.

 

[GJ51]

Have to agree with this and the OP. No nerfs to the larger ships, but some more manoeuvrability for smaller ships and greater speed.

We've seen this argument come full circle several times.

If small ships are a credible threat to the big ships, players will weigh the risk/reward and jump back into the smaller stuff. Nobody that's gotten that far in the game is dumb enough to risk 20, 30, 40 Million in re-buy if taking it out of dock means you're in trouble against someone flying in a 50k re-buy.

Most of you want ship balance, but you just don't even consider or argue risk/reward balance. You just want me to pull out my Billion credit Cutter so that you can have target practice in your 100k Eagle.

Stop back when you have the time and credits invested and we can actually have an interesting discussion.

 

[CTCParadox]

Because it costs a fraction of the price to buy and outfit?

Price is a weird balancing system.
Is a turreted pulse laser 7 times better than a fixed?
Is a plasma accelerator 45 times better than a fixed pulse?

Elite's prices are all over the shop.

CMDR CTCParadox

 

[TheGrimCorsair]

while i like the chart and post, which describes a problem, courier, dbs and imperial eagle are in reality faster than all medium and large ships (besides the clipper, but including FDL), especially in combat builds. so, there are faster small ships. not in the budget of eagle or viper, but in the 10 mio credit range.

also, this situation massively changes with wings. against a wing of player flown eagles, reversing might be a valid tactic in a clipper or FDL, but not in a python or conda. in a clipper or FDL, a wing of 2 couriers or or 2 DBS can circle the FAOFF turning larger ship. so, bring a friend!

i wouldn't recommend it, because you won't have the firepower to get down a FDL's shields or a clippers hull in time - but that's another story.

The Courier's acceleration is quite swift, yes, but it's peak pitch rate and top speed are not notably better than an FdL or FAS. In fact, in pitch rate it's inferior, and outside of the blue quite exceptionally so relative to the FAS.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…

Stop back when you have the time and credits invested and we can actually have an interesting discussion.

I have a Corvette, Anaconda, Python - and I think reverse flying simply ruins the fun of the ED flight model.

 

[CTCParadox]

We've seen this argument come full circle several times.

If small ships are a credible threat to the big ships, players will weigh the risk/reward and jump back into the smaller stuff. Nobody that's gotten that far in the game is dumb enough to risk 20, 30, 40 Million in re-buy if taking it out of dock means you're in trouble against someone flying in a 50k re-buy.

Most of you want ship balance, but you just don't even consider or argue risk/reward balance. You just want me to pull out my Billion credit Cutter so that you can have target practice in your 100k Eagle.

Stop back when you have the time and credits invested and we can actually have an interesting discussion.

I would have no problem with small ships being able to out manoeuvre large ships.
In fact I would love it, it would stop small ships and large ships flying exactly the same way (like Spitfires, get nose on target and shoot).

Make turrets a viable counter to small ships (and give ships hardpoints in turret friendly spots, maybe *gasp* in spots that don't even allow the hardpoint to shoot forward).

CMDR CTCParadox

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

The Courier's acceleration is quite swift, yes, but it's peak pitch rate and top speed are not notably better than an FdL or FAS. In fact, in pitch rate it's inferior, and outside of the blue quite exceptionally so relative to the FAS.

I have a FAS and it feels weird that something based on the FDS hull is so agile.
It's like if a C-130 got an air superiority variant.

CMDR CTCParadox

 

[goemon]

The Courier's acceleration is quite swift, yes, but it's peak pitch rate and top speed are not notably better than an FdL or FAS. In fact, in pitch rate it's inferior, and outside of the blue quite exceptionally so relative to the FAS.

take it lightweight (class 2 shield, class 3 powerplant), as close to 70-80% optimal thruster mass (or less, but this might not be functional), and you will be impressed how fast and manouverable it can get. sure - flown like a small shieldtank, it flies like a tank, not an eagle

 

[GJ51]

I have a Corvette, Anaconda, Python - and I think reverse flying simply ruins the fun of the ED flight model.

Meaningless without assessment of risk/reward equation.

As I said...

 

[hoodini]

I think the balance is quite nice. Right now im using a Corvette in Haz and i rather attack an FAS/Clipper/Conda, and not just because they pay more, but they are actually easier to kill. Something like an Imperial courier/Cobra/Vulture can be very irritating, and can sometimes take longer to kill than just going for a much bigger/stronger/tougher ship. So I see a balance here, and generously geared towards small ships. In reality I can vaporize those little suckers in just a few seconds, but its very challenging getting my guns on them for more than a few seconds, especially when its a cmdr, I've had some get behind me and pretty much stay there for most of the fight, even when using the reverse maneuver/FA off, so skill does play a big role here. Turreted weapons are also nicely balanced in favor of small ships, not only can chaff be used to counter them, but they do so little damage that you might as well open the cargo hatch and throw sticks at the other ship. In other words, if you want to take down a good Vulture pilot, you will need more than just turrets, you will actually have to get this agile ship in your line of fire at some point, which isnt easy using a slow lumbering ship.

Also there are already plenty of people in Vultures/DB/Couriers taking on Conda/Corvette pilots and in many cases winning. So if you have enough skill, you can actually take on an opponent who technically has a huge advantage over you. This to me says good balance. And between two equally skilled pilots, lets be honest, a small assault craft, with small guns should get its ass kicked by a big assault craft, with big guns, just the way it goes.

FYI
Chaffs don't work as intended against turrets - there is open bug
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=230087
and a small/med unshielded hull tanking target can't survive for long flying circles around a multi cannon turreted cutter/vette/conda

 

[avow555]

Spot on post there Ziljan.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Nerf the yaw, so we don't have turrets in space!

Now, you know why drones are the future.

 

[Troa Barton]

I'd be fine with the boost mechanic being changed, even if it effects all ships it will benefit small ships more than larger ones. It will certainly effect a small ship more if the big ship is reversing.
your example is all well and good when considering the conda and the vette but the cutter being gimped as it is screws things up. Because it's such an outlier you have to account for it, mind you I'd prefer to bring it in line with the conda in terms of maneuverability rather than keep everything balanced around the lowest denominator..
however the counter to being out maneuvered, turrets aren't viable against players who run cold with redundant chaff. But that's a different topic, running cold and chaff need counter measures. And the ships that need turrets need them to be viable and available in the case of no class 4 turrets and their effectiveness in general.
gameplay is already stacked in the favor of small ships we don't need anymore bias until it's a level playing field. Afterward I'm fine with the buff to boost mechanics.

 

[BillD]

OK I don't get it. Forgive my ignorance, but if the ship is more dangerous than you, why don't you run away?
Instead of running away, you want something changed so that you can more easily attack a big ship?
Work hard like the other guy. Upgrade you ship and take you expensive ship into battle against his expensive ship, so you have something to lose. Take the same risk of losing millions like them.

Sorry but for some reason this made me grumpy

 

[GJ51]

This isn't really a large vs small ship thread, or an Eagle thread. It's more about how agility is useless as a balancing factor regardless of ship size. Small ships tend to be more agile, but larger agile ships with "glass jaws" are equally useless at turning wars. Any ship, no matter how slow or lumbering can effectively counter the agility of smaller ships by using FAoff + reverse. Hence agility is meaningless.

Good point.

Apologies if my posts were more gasoline than water on a smoldering fire.

As always your information given is worthwhile and well illustrated.

Meaningless may be a bit strong, the FAS in particular uses agility fairly well to its advantage. I think the agility advantage is more of not letting someone get behind you, rather than getting behind someone else. For me, small, agile, and fast are really fun flying. But yes, in terms of combat it's not as significant as some might think.

 

[Slack]

OK I don't get it. Forgive my ignorance, but if the ship is more dangerous than you, why don't you run away?
Instead of running away, you want something changed so that you can more easily attack a big ship?
Work hard like the other guy. Upgrade you ship and take you expensive ship into battle against his expensive ship, so you have something to lose. Take the same risk of losing millions like them.

Sorry but for some reason this made me grumpy

Exactly right. Bigger more expensive ships, and more importantly ones that have more armor/shields/guns should be superior in combat vs a less expensive ship lacking in all those categories. The speed is there so you can run!! You are small, you have little guns, and no armor/shields to speak of. At no point should someone in an eagle be attacking an FDL or a Corvette, you see one of those you run! An eagle is a support attack craft. It needs to be in a wing with other preferably larger ships to be effective. In this case its not a high priority target and can do its thing and use its speed to get to safe strategic locations while inflicting the most damage it can. And if someone thinks 3 small fixed hardpoints dont do damage, they have another thing coming.