The problem is FDs inability to understand what's the big deal.
Open letter to Frontier
- Thread starter Cowboy Bats
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The problem is FDs inability to understand what's the big deal.
Exactly. The one thing I'm amazed about is how so many people seem to think an open PVE mode would be a panacea for this issue. It absolutely, 100%, would not be.
Deleted member 102790
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This might seem off-topic at first but I do not think so.
The underlying main issue is FD have a partly broken game here and players feel FD is not listening to them as they are releasing this and that without fixing the core gameplay despite years of requests. I don't just mean around this but many things.
In the end players argue with each other over the 2 main choices over a specific context.
As long as the players keep arguing against themselves and cannot come together to find some common ground with a united front it seems FD will do nothing.
Picture FD reading half of the players say NO and half say YES. OK do nothing then.
For example if I made a statement like "Griefing combat loggers should NOT be able to occur" then I think that would be common ground that all would agree on.
An example of a solution would be "code checks if high rated big ships crushes sidewinder recently then this player will be facing the insurance screen if they leave the battle period (no matter what, you could imagine a reason that makes sense for this later) so they would be forced to stay and fight and less likely to grief or if they did they would very likely die later".
Who would disagree with that versus what we have right now? (yes this is no good because side A wants also A and side B wants B - I know)
Are we so lacking in imagination we cannot come up with a top ten of such common-ground ideas?
The underlying main issue is FD have a partly broken game here and players feel FD is not listening to them as they are releasing this and that without fixing the core gameplay despite years of requests. I don't just mean around this but many things.
In the end players argue with each other over the 2 main choices over a specific context.
As long as the players keep arguing against themselves and cannot come together to find some common ground with a united front it seems FD will do nothing.
Picture FD reading half of the players say NO and half say YES. OK do nothing then.
For example if I made a statement like "Griefing combat loggers should NOT be able to occur" then I think that would be common ground that all would agree on.
An example of a solution would be "code checks if high rated big ships crushes sidewinder recently then this player will be facing the insurance screen if they leave the battle period (no matter what, you could imagine a reason that makes sense for this later) so they would be forced to stay and fight and less likely to grief or if they did they would very likely die later".
Who would disagree with that versus what we have right now? (yes this is no good because side A wants also A and side B wants B - I know)
Are we so lacking in imagination we cannot come up with a top ten of such common-ground ideas?
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Apparently Frontier themselves do not agree with you as they are assisting with the removal of these "players" from Mobius, as well as expressing their dismay at the behaviour. Frontier also, only, addressed exploits, that might have granted the"players" access to Mobius without permission. Mobius' rules sit atop Frontiers and have to comport with Frontiers own rules. They cannot grant exploitative rights that would be in contravention of Frontiers own.
the assertion was No rules were broken, clearly Mobius' rules were even if Frontier's were not. I'm switching to cricket as rounders well, not my game.
Oooh top edge to first slip.
Unfortunately them's the rules of the game, I'm sure that Frontier are working to correct the problem with both how private groups are administrated and the numbers. But further to this, Frontier did not anticipate the toxic nature of Open, even though it was more than adequately demonstrated during the beta phase of the game. I suspect that if they had taken the warnings more seriously an Open PVE option would have been built in from the start. But that is water under the bridge. We build with what we have not with what we wish for. Hence Mobius. That the group at present seems to be expanding at approx 500-1000 members per week, there clearly is a demand. Frontier have reported that 90%? of members have been active in the group over the last 6 months. I wonder how that compares with Open. Frontier clearly recognise that there is a problem with Open, for thus their questions in two forum threads.
Short pitched ball clips the glove and carries to Silly mid on. Frontier both acknowledges a problem with Private groups administration and with the toxicity of open.
Mobius works with the tools and time he/she has. An effective vetting system for a Private group would have included the means to sort the list of members and search Frontiers player database, or request that frontier do the same for players who have a history of breaking rules that Mobius wanted to apply ie. has CMDR X killed other players, yes then ban/further questions. No, grant access..
A yorker takes middle and off stumps. You work with the tools you have. A better solution would have been to keep the Syrian migrants in Syria in protected enclaves.
Clearly he condones it, that is why he and Frontier are not asking about it in two forum threads, oh, wait...
The proposals from Sandro, will have little or no effect. They might have worked if they had been applied from the start. but now, I have little faith in the solution. Crime and punishment changes are a band-aid on a haemohrraging artery. There is no point pruning the branches when the infection is in the trunk.
A full toss, hooked to long off, where it is caught 5 yards short of the boundary.
At present there is little to stop liars lying. Who knew!
I'm off to bed. orders have been issued.
How's that lifetime pass working for everyone now?
All I can do is just eat popcorn and watch.
Let the firestorm start and see which way the forums burn.
Oh, but the PvP rage would be epic.
Did I say the victims were to blame? No, I didn't, I said it's criminally negligent to NOT put steps in place to prevent this. This is not a singular event, it's happened multiple times now. When law enforcement is aware of a threat and does nothing about it, they ARE at fault. Mobius is the law enforcement for the Mobius group, he is aware that this has happened before and it will happen again. He can take simple steps to prevent it from happening, yet he hasn't. Therefore Mobius is at fault, he did nothing to prevent this from happening yet again. You can try and twist it however you want, but the facts remain the same.
From the other similar thread...
Partially quoting what Zac stated;
I'm finding it extremely difficult to reconcile the parts I've highlighted. It makes no sense to me.
Either FDEV maintains the stance that "griefing in itself isn't against the rules", or FDEV takes "creating a friendly and enjoyable game experience" very seriously.
To me, the two are mutually exclusive attitudes. I'm confused. Please help me sort this out in my head!
Partially quoting what Zac stated;
I'm finding it extremely difficult to reconcile the parts I've highlighted. It makes no sense to me.
Either FDEV maintains the stance that "griefing in itself isn't against the rules", or FDEV takes "creating a friendly and enjoyable game experience" very seriously.
To me, the two are mutually exclusive attitudes. I'm confused. Please help me sort this out in my head!
Honestly, I agree. There's a reason for what happened...and it comes down to Mobius being unable to check who he let into his group and NOT prevent PVP from occurring. Mobius is not a PvE group..apparently...since PvP obviously occurs!
This was socially engineered by SDC...and they apparently have an amazing ability to do this type of game play. Hats off to the SDC for outplaying others. I wouldn't be surprised if this group has enough folks within the Mobius group to continue this attack for some time...as things calm down another cell activates...goes on a murder spree...and gets booted...rinse repeat.
Hope everyone is enjoying the Dangerous part of Elite!
<whistling past the graveyard!>
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To be fair though Kristov - some of the steps he (and many other people) probably should take would have the PVP community throw an absolute fit.
We can't discuss details of course, but we both know what is involved. The RAEG would be delightful - and only purest salt would be collected.
How can it possibly be Mobius's fault? He admits members on good faith that they will abide by the rules of the group, (and bans them if they do not), so unless that / those particular players had joined before and broken the rules, he has no way of determining that they will break the rules now. What 'simple steps' can he take to determine that these players are not of impeccable character? He doesn't work for FD nor I imagine does he have access to players logs to see whether they have been hanging around starter systems killing sidewinders.
It's strange to apportion the blame for this on a group owner when he has no tools (that we know of) to help him in making such decisions, and that is at the heart of why some players are now suggesting that FD take on the responsibility for managing such a large group (by creating an Open PvE mode).
So, they acted like the trolls they are and slapped everyone's face, including that of the guys who got their group highlighted in many departments. What about erasing that front page article about them, as well as removing them from the registered group list? And let that be an example for any group trying to redo that sort of experience in the future? After all, if griefing is not against the rules in the game, special treatments are not an obligation either.
Not trying to be flippant here Kristov...
But to the casual reader it does rather sound like your saying 'the victims to blame'. What are these simple steps Mobius failed to take?
How could it be Mobius' fault that someone has YET AGAIN infiltrated his private group when he has failed to implement ANY form of vetting? Is that a serious question? The honor system has obviously NOT worked, HOW many times has this exact same event happened now?
Did you ask why anyone blamed the governments of Europe when terrorists committed acts of violence despite the authorities being aware of them and that they posed a threat? Same exact same situation, and it would seem it's having the same exact emotional toll of the members of Mobius no less, despite it being nowhere near as serious as situation, no one lost ANYTHING, they didn't get hurt, maimed or killed, no property was destroyed, no money was lost, no puppies kicked or kittens drowned, yet the reactions...
I already mentioned a few simple and easy steps Mobius could take, get the commander's ingame name, their forum nick and their email address tied to both. The email is easy enough to check via the forums, then you send an email to it for verification, there are simply, free, legal means to do all of this and it takes very little real time. I've used this method myself when I vetted recruits for SRM in other games, it's rather simple, effective and not time consuming.
Another simple and easy thing, IP checking, we get each others IPs all the time, so it's easy to check them, make sure they all match up, as that's also something you can get from someone's email.
Asp, you and I both know far more invasive and more effective methods of this, I've used them indirectly(helps to have friends in countries where those things aren't on the books yet), and I would suggest that Mobius see if anyone in that 20,000+ group has such skills in a place where it's not illegal to make use of them for vetting purposes, and only for vetting purposes. Bricking a router isn't real effective honestly, they are cheap and easy to replace, and often free to get replaced as many are now provided by ISPs.
You folks in Mobius really want to get some revenge? And do it without breaking any rules or laws? You have members who do enjoy PvP on occasion. The groups who've infiltrated you can always use another good PvPer. 'Oops, sorry man, I was aiming for that guy, I didn't MEAN to kill you' 'HEY! what are you doing moron, I was trying to ram him and you got in my way, I don't care about your rebuy idiot, what about MY damage costs!'...need I say more?
Check CMDR name - on google, youtube, forums, reddit, whatever. Check forum history. Check other group members for feedback. Check IP.
It's a little bit like a standard background check you do on potential employees. Anything fishy - you either decline them or take a chance. A bit like everything in life really
some people just aren't happy unless they're complaining, huh?
you got your ship blown up by some jerks. kick the jerks out of mobius and move on. There is absolutely zero that FD should do about this.
No... you want another mode in the game that would divide the player base even more.
It's a game, suck it up.
you got your ship blown up by some jerks. kick the jerks out of mobius and move on. There is absolutely zero that FD should do about this.
No... you want another mode in the game that would divide the player base even more.
It's a game, suck it up.
Check CMDR name - on google, youtube, forums, reddit, whatever. Check forum history. Check other group members for feedback. Check IP.
It's a little bit like a standard background check you do on potential employees. Anything fishy - you either decline them or take a chance. A bit like everything in life really
Oh come on. These are volunteers who admin with Mobius. That would take forever. I've been employed by FTSE100 companies that never checked my details.
Nobody is to blame but FD for this. It's their game.
(EDIT: for those assuming that anything wrong happened at all)
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I bet you real hard cash you've never employed anyone
And if you've been employed by footsies who never checked your credentials, that's not your fault - it's the HR and corporate law departments at the footsie that were negligent.I'm sorry that the pvp group thought it was a good idea to attack players that weren't prepared to fight back, and most likely had no intention to. Now I suspect many of the Mobius players will move to solo, which is a major blow to PvE in Elite.
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