I call those players (PvPers who don't like shooting @ other PvP players) trolls and griefers, or, immature children. People looking to PvP only with targets they know they can beat are just sad, pathetic wastes of space. If you're going to be all about pvp (as some here claim to be) then you should be about taking on the targets you come across that pose a decent threat to you, not ripping apart a newb because lolsidey.
Should there be an 'Open' Player Vs Environment Option on the Login Screen
- Thread starter excalibus
- Start date
I think you just described how to make PvP in Elite 'rare and meaningful'.
Well done.
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I agree.... sort those out and then maybe the number of people hating on open would drop. until then, the low hanging fruit is a PvE mode.
I think 18 months is long enough to give FD to get their house in order regarding crime and consequences. the fact that they cant manage it, or do not want to manage it, it is time to at least give us the tools promised in the kickstarter.
The problem with the 'Mobius' solution is that poor Cmdr Mobius has a sisphean task ... he's a single point of failure due to the complete lack of controls/admin for private groups of large numbers.
If the system allowed 'admin' rights to be assigned to multiple commanders in a group and have some kind of control then Mobius would become the defacto pve option
Given the size of mobius and the growth rate there clearly is a demand....
Arguing against it for any reason seems futile as it wouldn't exist without demand and if anything its helping to unite a lot of otherwise 'solo' players
Splitting the community down a pve/pvp divide is better than having hundreds of sub-groups
If the system allowed 'admin' rights to be assigned to multiple commanders in a group and have some kind of control then Mobius would become the defacto pve option
Given the size of mobius and the growth rate there clearly is a demand....
Arguing against it for any reason seems futile as it wouldn't exist without demand and if anything its helping to unite a lot of otherwise 'solo' players
Splitting the community down a pve/pvp divide is better than having hundreds of sub-groups
You raise an interesting point there about the number of times Mobius has been infected by a PvP player. It's working out as a very small chance, approx. 1/1000+ chance of it happening. I wonder what the frequency of PvP versus PvE encounters in Open would be... A nagging little voice is telling me it may well be the same or similar figure, possibly even higher, only FD know for sure. If this is the case or even close to it does it not point towards open being as safe as Mobius to play in?
This is a good point, however "sub" or "Friend groups" are still nice, a limit on these to limit it to just say 16-48 players could allow groups of people to still play together and do this withouth worrying about others for whichever reason they wish, but behemoth groups are a bit odd, and Mobious is great yet equally fragile.
This is not a problem that the players should be concerned about at all, PVPers and those who like PVP, are more inclined to choose PVP and go there, even first timers are most often inclined to go there, usually these servers are the most populated ones and in the games i've played online that has pvp, pve or rp realms and servers etc through the past 20 ish years now, pvp always comes out ontop with most. PVPers really shouldn't suffer at all, and saying they would seems a bit odd, not sure about Elite but i'm sure theres a lot more people in Open than there are in Mobious throughout a week.
If infact the vast majority somehow is though in mobious, and are PVEers who _only_ want to play pve, then again the game designers should take this into heavy consideration, and having contested areas and "safe" areas would perhaps be a nice idea again, PvPers know where the action are, pve'rs know where to be carefull.
You could come close to replicating the Mobius rule set with a relatively modest mode variant: any player who incurs a bounty against another undergoes an immediate mode shift to Open and can't return to PvE until the exile timer expires. The exile timer is equal to the bounty timer, but can't be reset by any means (except perhaps paying reparations to the targeted commander). In addition, the exile timer is cumulative: one stray shot or collision might send you away for 15 minutes, but each additional indiscretion adds to the base number. The timer counts down only in Open and only outside of no-fire zones. If you want to be vindictive about it, it comes with a universal KOS "wanted" tag that only allows docking at "pirate" faction stations. PvP is still allowed in PvE mode, but only against legal targets (and legal targets should be able to fight back at no penalty).
The system could be edge-cased, no question, but it's a minimalist approach to an Open PvE implementation and could be further refined.
It paints it as "safer" to play in from my perspective. God forbid I actually call it safe, that would invite a plethora of replies stating the exact opposite.
I harbor no notion that the frequency of pvp encounters in Open are equal to or less than what has happened in Mobius, even with a more saturated player base, simply because the pvp often happens in areas where players are drawn to. Community Goals are a well known source of salt and tears and even some great pvp if you find the right groups of people. Areas like Merope, when the first barnacles were discovered were also prime hunting spots for the lone/group PVP children who sought out those locations solely to inflict damage upon the relatively defenseless. Wherever players go to congregate, they will follow.
The thing is, we're always going to have that little niche of players in this game. Always. Even if FDev comes down and lays out an open PvE mode, the people who live to grief and live to troll will find ways to troll the ever living crap out of the players who choose to go into Open PvE if only to just rub salt into their wounds. I mean, think about it. I fly a FAS right now. It's a big, bulky, heavy, lumbering mother of a ship. If you're in a FAS or smaller all I have to do to upset you is consistently ram you off course, block your shots, block your entry into station ports. I can't kill you but I can make your life a living hell given enough motivation to do so. The no-damage-from-players mechanic will keep the ramming from harming either of us for the duration.
There will always be a way to troll and grief, whether it results in loss of credits or time or just simple frustration. You want to get rid of them? Stop feeding them. Ignore them. It's the most basic unwritten law of the internet and it works wonders. Aside from that there's no "easy" fix that FDev could implement that would be a perfect fix. They already tried with station speed limits and it took less than hour to find a way around that.
I silently wish for the breakdown of the Mobius group and forum sometimes. How much impact does a handful of commanders have on FDs Elite: Dangerous?
I would like to know.
I would like to know.
It seems to me that Frontier ventured into a territory they didn't have a lot of experience with: MMO. The way the multiplayer version - open and private groups, were implemented, seems to suggest they wanted to have exactly an open, truly cutthroat galaxy with PVP everywhere and probably small groups for people who would like to play with a relatively small group of friends.
In my opinion, they had a particular vision of PVP in multiplayer mode adding a bit of "spice" and danger to the game and didn't anticipate it might turn into anything else than a bit of friendly competition, players staying in-character and playing a particular role when it comes to PVP. They probably thought people will happily assume a role of "bad guys" or "good guys", want to become part of the story and what not. And I'm saying so because I have seen many games where designers were fairly idealistic and rather naïve in their implementation of PVP. The problem is the same I've seen many times over and over again in other games: the vision developers had seldom is exactly the same as the vision the players have. If the game is truly outstanding and offers amazing gameplay experience, more PVE players will stick to it even if there is PVP. But for all that ED has to offer (and to me it's a very enjoyable experience), it's not always a game easy to love. Considering that PVP implementation is far from perfection in ED, less players will be willing to put up with this. Which resulted in what we see: PVE players sticking to Solo mode or joining PG focusing on PVE, like Mobius.
I think that Frontier itself didn't anticipate the number of players interested in private PVE groups. One thing that seems to suggest that, is lack of built-in tools for managing large number of players. The fact that one person basically singlehandedly manages a group of nearly 20k players (even if the number of players active in that group is smaller) is a miracle. That wouldn't happen if the person who organised the group wasn't extremely committed to the game itself. I think it's time Frontier looked into it even just out of respect for a person who is ensuring such a number of players has an enjoyable experience playing ED. Private groups might have been a good temporary solution, but it is really time for some permanent solutions being implemented. Whether through adding more tools for managing such groups and their rule sets or through adding an Open PVE choice. The latter is, in my opinion, a better option, because: 1. It gives Frontier more control over the direction the game is developing 2. They can not count on players to do their job for them forever 3. It is important from the business point of view to do whatever they can to attract and keep players.
They are planning ED to be further developed over the years and it seems they want to add MMO elements (which I believe will help this great game to be more enjoyable and survive for longer). And yes, it's their game, they can take it into any direction they choose, but it would be wise of them to listen to what their customer base is asking for.
Personally I don't mind PVP when it makes some sense. I don't mind having to avoid human pirates or epic battles in space against other players. I don't mind arena type of gameplay, where I can jump into some battle outfitted ship and test my combat skills. But for most of the time I just want to pop in to the game for an hour or two and have some peace and quiet. I would be happy to interact with other players and become a part of bigger community, but this option now is not available to me and I'd be happy to see Frontier both improve PVP aspects of the gameplay as well as provide an open PVE mode.
In my opinion, they had a particular vision of PVP in multiplayer mode adding a bit of "spice" and danger to the game and didn't anticipate it might turn into anything else than a bit of friendly competition, players staying in-character and playing a particular role when it comes to PVP. They probably thought people will happily assume a role of "bad guys" or "good guys", want to become part of the story and what not. And I'm saying so because I have seen many games where designers were fairly idealistic and rather naïve in their implementation of PVP. The problem is the same I've seen many times over and over again in other games: the vision developers had seldom is exactly the same as the vision the players have. If the game is truly outstanding and offers amazing gameplay experience, more PVE players will stick to it even if there is PVP. But for all that ED has to offer (and to me it's a very enjoyable experience), it's not always a game easy to love. Considering that PVP implementation is far from perfection in ED, less players will be willing to put up with this. Which resulted in what we see: PVE players sticking to Solo mode or joining PG focusing on PVE, like Mobius.
I think that Frontier itself didn't anticipate the number of players interested in private PVE groups. One thing that seems to suggest that, is lack of built-in tools for managing large number of players. The fact that one person basically singlehandedly manages a group of nearly 20k players (even if the number of players active in that group is smaller) is a miracle. That wouldn't happen if the person who organised the group wasn't extremely committed to the game itself. I think it's time Frontier looked into it even just out of respect for a person who is ensuring such a number of players has an enjoyable experience playing ED. Private groups might have been a good temporary solution, but it is really time for some permanent solutions being implemented. Whether through adding more tools for managing such groups and their rule sets or through adding an Open PVE choice. The latter is, in my opinion, a better option, because: 1. It gives Frontier more control over the direction the game is developing 2. They can not count on players to do their job for them forever 3. It is important from the business point of view to do whatever they can to attract and keep players.
They are planning ED to be further developed over the years and it seems they want to add MMO elements (which I believe will help this great game to be more enjoyable and survive for longer). And yes, it's their game, they can take it into any direction they choose, but it would be wise of them to listen to what their customer base is asking for.
Personally I don't mind PVP when it makes some sense. I don't mind having to avoid human pirates or epic battles in space against other players. I don't mind arena type of gameplay, where I can jump into some battle outfitted ship and test my combat skills. But for most of the time I just want to pop in to the game for an hour or two and have some peace and quiet. I would be happy to interact with other players and become a part of bigger community, but this option now is not available to me and I'd be happy to see Frontier both improve PVP aspects of the gameplay as well as provide an open PVE mode.
For me the attraction of Open PvE wouldn't be the lowered risk of getting blatted by a griefer- I've only been 'killed' once in open, in spite of never having played any other mode and in spite of numerous seal clubbers trying their luck last year, I'm fine with the griefers trying it on. Haters gonna hate, as the youngsters say. The attraction for me would be that I could go about my business without non combatants scattering the moment I get close enough to interdict. I'm disrupting other players just by being in open right now. No-one wants to chat, or even risk being in the same instance with me. It's a bit depressing, tbh. I'd like to play in an environment where I'm not automatically assumed to be a danger to all and sundry just because I like flying go fasts.
I get what you're saying, but there's a lot less room for excuses when you report the griefer if you're in an environment specifically set in place to provide that, dare I say it?
, 'safe space'. FD are clever cookies, someone extracting the Michael would attract a lot of attention to themselves in the proposed mode.
I originally voted "no" because I didn't see the need for an Open PvE mode at the time and thought it would take too much of the Dev's time to implement. Now, with the recent Smiling Dog Crew debacle, I would change my vote to "yes" if I could. There's an obvious need for an Open PvE mode as long as cowards like the SDC exist.
indeed there is.... The SDC debacle shows that there needs to be defined and selectable rulesets for the Admins of groups and further highlights the need for a PVE ONLY mode that is either enforced through game mechanics or is handled through a user agreement that is then viguoursly enforced by FDev!!!
I didn't read all 65 pages of this thread so far, but I do play in Mobius from time to time.
In regards to all the PVE server talk, personally, I think keeping people together instead of splitting them out into different gaming instances will make the galaxy (or at least the bubble) a more vibrant place to be.
That being said, I think the main problem with the issue of griefing (perceived or real) is that it is unsafe in the starting areas and other supposedly high security, high population areas. The penalties for murder are laughable. The deterrent: murder is penalized by a $6000 fine and a week of probation. I think people would be amenable to keeping open the way it is if something like the following were implemented:
1) Police presence in the starting/ high security areas should be like border line insane. Police officers with lethal force everywhere. You murder, there is a wing of elite Anacondas and vultures ready to pounce on you.
2) you high wake, similar said wing is waiting for you on the other end of your jump. They will wake scan you and "radio" ahead and cut you off (just like real life). Man hunts for murderers call in dozens or more police in real life.
3) insurance on your ship is generally the easy part to pay. The fine would be in the millions for the first offense. Don't pay it and you get labeled public enemy #1 and you will be attacked on site at any port controlled by the Major faction in which the offense was made. Fines can be paid at any neutral port. Just don' think about coming back empty handed.
4) Habitual offenders make the bulletin boards with NPC "snitches" in game to point you out (mission updates will tell players what areas to find you). You will be hunted by NPC and real players alike. rewards in the millions so it is worth people's time to go and find you.
5) being killed, paying fines, and some probation period with some penalty to do business, depending on severity of crime gets you back into society's good graces.
6) the further you get from the starting areas, the less the police presence until you are, of course, in anarchy territory, or at the border of another major faction space.
This allows for noobs and non-risk takers to play the game in a reasonably safe environment and still allows for pirates and killers to operate on the fringes of civilized space.
Play the game as you wish, just don't even think about starting trouble in the high security, high population or starting areas.
If this is too much for murderers and griefers to handle, then they don't have what it takes to be one. Suck it up, toughen up, and be the bad ace that you are (or at least want to be).
In regards to all the PVE server talk, personally, I think keeping people together instead of splitting them out into different gaming instances will make the galaxy (or at least the bubble) a more vibrant place to be.
That being said, I think the main problem with the issue of griefing (perceived or real) is that it is unsafe in the starting areas and other supposedly high security, high population areas. The penalties for murder are laughable. The deterrent: murder is penalized by a $6000 fine and a week of probation. I think people would be amenable to keeping open the way it is if something like the following were implemented:
1) Police presence in the starting/ high security areas should be like border line insane. Police officers with lethal force everywhere. You murder, there is a wing of elite Anacondas and vultures ready to pounce on you.
2) you high wake, similar said wing is waiting for you on the other end of your jump. They will wake scan you and "radio" ahead and cut you off (just like real life). Man hunts for murderers call in dozens or more police in real life.
3) insurance on your ship is generally the easy part to pay. The fine would be in the millions for the first offense. Don't pay it and you get labeled public enemy #1 and you will be attacked on site at any port controlled by the Major faction in which the offense was made. Fines can be paid at any neutral port. Just don' think about coming back empty handed.
4) Habitual offenders make the bulletin boards with NPC "snitches" in game to point you out (mission updates will tell players what areas to find you). You will be hunted by NPC and real players alike. rewards in the millions so it is worth people's time to go and find you.
5) being killed, paying fines, and some probation period with some penalty to do business, depending on severity of crime gets you back into society's good graces.
6) the further you get from the starting areas, the less the police presence until you are, of course, in anarchy territory, or at the border of another major faction space.
This allows for noobs and non-risk takers to play the game in a reasonably safe environment and still allows for pirates and killers to operate on the fringes of civilized space.
Play the game as you wish, just don't even think about starting trouble in the high security, high population or starting areas.
If this is too much for murderers and griefers to handle, then they don't have what it takes to be one. Suck it up, toughen up, and be the bad ace that you are (or at least want to be).
@OP
I can't really see any downside with an an Open PvE option.
Mobius is passing 20 000 members these days, so why not just make it official?
Unless it is technically difficult to make it so.
I can't really see any downside with an an Open PvE option.
Mobius is passing 20 000 members these days, so why not just make it official?
Unless it is technically difficult to make it so.
Elite IV at last, that would be great.
The people have voted, by simple majority the people have confirmed that they wish for PvE Open to become a reality.
The question now, will FD listen and facilitate what the majority of players want?
PvE groups are not safe from those who wish to spoil other people's fun.
FD it's time to give what the people want.
The question now, will FD listen and facilitate what the majority of players want?
PvE groups are not safe from those who wish to spoil other people's fun.
FD it's time to give what the people want.
Time to make it official I reckon - Mobius was a great initiative, but it isn't right for one person to admin anyone wanting PvE without the griefers in Elite.
Either sort out the crime and punishment system (and not some quick-fix that isn't properly thought through), or add Open PvE - doing nothing is just silly.
Either sort out the crime and punishment system (and not some quick-fix that isn't properly thought through), or add Open PvE - doing nothing is just silly.