Should there be an 'Open' Player Vs Environment Option on the Login Screen

Should there be an 'Open' Player Vs Environment Option on the Start Screnn

  • Yes

    Votes: 638 55.4%
  • No

    Votes: 514 44.6%

  • Total voters
    1,152
  • Poll closed .
I'm saying no. I think there should be an overhaul of consequence and security for sure. But I think PvE and PvP are out-of-game terms, because we get hung up on who is shooting. There is only PvElite.

Elite is a virtual galaxy with laws. Both NPC and CMDR should be bound to them. If you have a bounty, it should be collectible by any pilot, both NPC and real player.

Limiting who can shoot who is a band-aid for a much bigger issue. The laws, punishment, and risk vs reward of dealings in dangerous space need to be fixed and they need to be fixed REALLY badly.
 
So you are argueing that this is the way the game is so play it this way... that is okay, we are well aware that this is how the game is, and we do play it the way it is right now, what this thread is asking for is to add an option to the game that currently does not exist. It is not something we are saying 'must be done now asap high priortiyy immediately' , but something that should be done during the lifecycle of the development of the game and not as an afterthought in 9 years time...

If you don't mind a PVE multiplayer mode being implemented then why are you arguing against it with lines like (if you don't like it play something else) etc, it's not that we don't like the game, it is that some of us can see the real and tangible benefits such an option would bring to the game and so would like FDev to include it as an option.

There are a number of valid reasons why people prefer to play PVE...

I am arguing against PvE because it is not worth FD's development effort compared to the lineup of bugs/features that needs to be implemented first.

You say there are valid reasons people prefer to play PvE. Other than their problem about griefers (the issue which I extensively addressed on my previous comments), can you cite these "valid reasons"?

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I'm saying no. I think there should be an overhaul of consequence and security for sure. But I think PvE and PvP are out-of-game terms, because we get hung up on who is shooting. There is only PvElite.

Elite is a virtual galaxy with laws. Both NPC and CMDR should be bound to them. If you have a bounty, it should be collectible by any pilot, both NPC and real player.

Limiting who can shoot who is a band-aid for a much bigger issue. The laws, punishment, and risk vs reward of dealings in dangerous space need to be fixed and they need to be fixed REALLY badly.

This is what makes perfect sense to me.
 
I'm not forcing views or telling what players should do here. The game is the one forcing you to have this view and tells you what to do. I'm just saying the game and the modes are fine as it is, and you must adjust to the game if the game says so. If there are no PvE mode then that's unfortunate, but you have to play on the existing modes in order to play this game. It's not my view; it's the game's view.

About the griefers: If FD suddenly improves NPC pirates' AI that it becomes too unpredictable and too efficient in killing you (barring any unfair advantage on their ship loadouts), are you going to complain that you don't want such an AI because they become too smart for you and hence are no longer fun?

About playing trading ships: It is possible to play T7 or any other ship in Open without having weapons. Solution: Have better defenses (e.g. shields) and piloting skills. It's all about trade-offs. If you still insist to fly T7 with weak/no shields in order to accommodate more cargo, you are simply being greedy, reckless, shortsighted and/or not accounting for all possible risks. And when a player kills you for what ever reason (assuming there was no bug/exploit used to their advantage), it is not their fault; it is your fault for flying a bad loadout or you just doesn't have enough skills yet. If you insist learning such skill is not needed, then you are just being lazy. This game has a high learning curve. If you learned the basic skills, this skill (surviving hostile NPCs/players) is no different.

About the big demand: Sure, I don't mind if a PvE mode is implemented in the game. It's up to FD. But if FD insists of not implementing them due to much better reason/other high priority tasks, what can you do?

In the end it is up to Frontier when it comes to the gameplay options they want to offer. At the moment they offer Arena, Solo, Private Groups and Open with PVP. Each of these gaming modes is valid. Players can choose one of them. However, when Arena, Solo and Open with PVP work more or less as designed, Private Groups do not. As mentioned earlier, in case of a large and significant number of players joining one of them (as we have seen with Mobius group), systems currently in place are not able to cope. Additionally, existence of such groups depends on good will of the people who organise them to meet the demand. Which basically equals to Frontier asking their customers to devote their time, energy and resources to run their game. Which is unethical towards the members of the community and a really low move on the side of any business or organisation earning money through their activity.
I suggest you go to your local authorities and offer them sweeping streets for free, as a volunteer, for a year or longer. Maybe after that time you will be able to comprehend what is wrong with such a model and maybe then you will be able to understand the effort Cmmdr Moebius puts in providing content for and keeping interaction between 20k of players, who would otherwise mostly play in Solo or not play ED at all. In no way the system of Private Groups works "just fine as it is" and at the very minimum it's Frontier's job to fix it and make it work properly, even if they decide against introducing Open PVE mode (and it's their funeral, they can decide whatever they want in this matter).

Assuming that a price of an expansion is £20 and those players stay in the game and buy expansion, that means current Moebius players have a purchase power of £400000 each year, this is not including paintworks, merchandise, fiction etc., so not an insignificant source of additional income.
This is also the money that Frontier risks loosing if these players stop playing ED. Considering how much gameplay depth the game offers at the moment, they should tread very carefully when it comes to meeting requests of their customers. Especially that ensuring there is a PVE environment players can enjoy together is basically providing them with free content in form of player interaction which otherwise wouldn't take place.

As for the AI, it remains to be seen what Frontier does with that and how "smart" it becomes. If the game becomes too difficult, for example when each interdiction of a trading, mining or exploration ship results in the ship's destruction, this is bound to cause an uproar. Nobody will play a game where they constantly loose what they were working for for hours. Some players would just stop playing and the ones who care about ED and like playing it will complain for sure. There are games where higher difficulty can be enjoyable and attract players despite that, because the gameplay is otherwise rewarding. ED is still far away from becoming one of those games. And even if Frontier created absolutely perfect game, this still doesn't mean they are going to please everyone and won't be criticised.
For me the NPCs are not an important element of my gameplay. I get interdicted every few jumps. With cargo, without cargo, in a combat ship, in a trading ship without any weapons... If I have weapons, they usually end up as a bounty for me to collect. If I don't have weapons, the heavily equipped opponents are not faster and the light fighter ships are not quick enough at damaging my shields (which I use) and hull to prevent me from getting away and either dragging them into a gravity well of the nearest planet / star and messing up their FSD interdictor, or to the nearest station for the system security to take care of them whilst I dock. If I want combat, I go and look for it. If I don't want combat, it's merely a nuisance. If I had problem with NPCs, I'd add shield boosters / chaffs / point defence turrets or whatever would allow me to get back to supercruise and avoid them. At the moment these devices were not necessary, if they become necessary and won't be effective enough, I will simply refrain from playing ED until Frontier fixes the issue. Unless I happen to do trading or exploration in a combat capable ship, in which case I won't really be bothered with AI being "smarter".

Of course it's possible to play any trading ship without weapons. Especially that having weapons on them is totally pointless anyway, waste of credits and waste of time. This applies to Solo, PG and Open. As for flying without shields, that's not something I do, but if somebody does it, it's their risk to take and their gameplay choice. And I don't care if they are greedy or lazy, there is no rule prohibiting a player from being greedy or lazy. But somehow I don't remember players complaining that an NPC destroyed their ship or that they crashed it during docking when they fly without shields. It seems that players are generally reasonable when it comes to this matter.
 
Groups are a way for like minded people to play together with home brew rules to take a DnD expression, when people ask to join a group it is expected they will follow these rules.

No we can't expect FD to police each group or each time someone goes in and breaks a groups home brew rules BUT when a group infiltrates, like SDC with Mobius, with the sole INTENT to disrupt the game play of said group for giggles or because they do not like said group as its the opposite of what they like then its no longer simply breaking the rules but outright malicious griefing and harassment as such FD should step in a take action.

That said if FD cannot step up to the plate then even though I was originally against a open pve I have to change my stance on this issue. I originally felt bugfixes and more content should come first BUT if FD are unwilling to step up then this becomes a bigger priority in my book as they are telling us they can't or are unable to be effective in stopping harassment and so they need to put in a mechanic that solves the problem.
 
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To be frank I don't see any argument against PvE that doesn't boil down to 'I don't want others to be able to play in a way that they want to, because I don't want them to be able to', which is no argument at all.

The case for a proper engineered PvE has been clear from the ouset and you only have to see the popularity of Mobius, with it's 97% active player base.

The game is Dangerous not Doofus, so it's time for a formal engineered solution please FDev.
 
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I am arguing against PvE because it is not worth FD's development effort compared to the lineup of bugs/features that needs to be implemented first.

You say there are valid reasons people prefer to play PvE. Other than their problem about griefers (the issue which I extensively addressed on my previous comments), can you cite these "valid reasons"?

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This is what makes perfect sense to me.


By your statement it is obvious you have not actually read much of the thread...

If you read back in the thread, I actually posted some real reasons I have read from other players on these forums over the last year and a half, there are many psychological / medical reasons why people do not want any PVP but would love to PVE with other people... There are also people who just don't want that sort of gameplay for other reasons as well, and some who don't mind a bit of PVP but it's not their main style of play... and then there are those that have a real fear of 'gankers / griefers', personally some of the 'fears' IMHO are over stressed but I am not those individuals that feel that way, but I can empathise with them...


Fixing the crime and punishment system for all modes will be a good thing, fixing it so it adds consequences on highly unbalanced PVP will help the current open mode of the game for sure, It will not however address or alter the reasons why people who want to experience playing in a PVE Multiplayer environment though will it? It will surely bring some people back to open if and when they improve the consequences for the current unbalanced PVP (Highly specced high ranking combat      vs lowly specced low ranking ship) aspect of the game and those will be the players who like the idea of a 'fairer' pvp fight not those that do not want any PVP...
 
I am arguing against PvE because it is not worth FD's development effort compared to the lineup of bugs/features that needs to be implemented first.

That was my reasoning as well. Except that group play is now broken, so the priority just rose up significantly.
Since FD almost never tackled an issue unless the game becomes totally unplayable, the problem remains: How do we get them to fix their game? Granted, there are options like customer support and combat logging, but this does not address everything.

You say there are valid reasons people prefer to play PvE. Other than their problem about griefers (the issue which I extensively addressed on my previous comments), can you cite these "valid reasons"?

Many players want to play together cooperatively, but not against each other. I don't know why this has to be explained.
 
You say there are valid reasons people prefer to play PvE. Other than their problem about griefers (the issue which I extensively addressed on my previous comments), can you cite these "valid reasons"?
Its pretty simple, some people would have more fun to play PvE with others without the possability of PvP. And fun is what Games are all about.
 
Groups are a way for like minded people to play together with home brew rules to take a DnD expression, when people ask to join a group it is expected they will follow these rules.

No we can't expect FD to police each group or each time someone goes in and breaks a groups home brew rules BUT when a group infiltrates, like SDC with Mobius, with the sole INTENT to disrupt the game play of said group for giggles or because they do not like said group as its the opposite of what they like then its no longer simply breaking the rules but outright malicious griefing and harassment as such FD should step in a take action.

That said if FD cannot step up to the plate then even though I was originally against a open pve I have to change my stance on this issue. I originally felt bugfixes and more content should come first BUT if FD are unwilling to step up then this becomes a bigger priority in my book as they are telling us they can't or are unable to be effective in stopping harassment and so they need to put in a mechanic that solves the problem.

I don't actually disagree that bug fixes and so forth should take a higher priority, additional content, well that will come no doubt as they continue development, and in that, an open PVE mode could be developed as well, as realistically, how I see it from the outside looking in, it should not be all too difficult that if you enter that mode, that the game client simply turns off 'damage' from weapons on player vs player...

things it should not stop would be players getting bounties for 'firing on other clean players, or for speeding bounties / ramming damage... Yes I know 'griefers' will then come in ramming etc as happens in open right now anyway so that would need to be addressed across all multiplayer modes or not addressed at all...
 
By your statement it is obvious you have not actually read much of the thread...

If you read back in the thread, I actually posted some real reasons I have read from other players on these forums over the last year and a half, there are many psychological / medical reasons why people do not want any PVP but would love to PVE with other people... There are also people who just don't want that sort of gameplay for other reasons as well, and some who don't mind a bit of PVP but it's not their main style of play... and then there are those that have a real fear of 'gankers / griefers', personally some of the 'fears' IMHO are over stressed but I am not those individuals that feel that way, but I can empathise with them...

I'm looking for "valid reasons". And til now I haven't seen one. If you want, I'll examine the "reaons" you offered:
(1) "there are many psychological / medical reasons why people do not want any PVP but would love to PVE with other people" - I believe that's a good reason not to play games like this. If you have a heart condition, being killed by an NPC can trigger heart attack just as much a being killed by a griefer. If you have rage disorder, NPC can do that to you as well. It doesn't matter if you love PvE with other people. Your health/safety comes first.

(2) "There are also people who just don't want that sort of gameplay for other reasons as well" - I'm sorry I can't accept this as a valid reason. Moving to next,

(3) "...and some who don't mind a bit of PVP but it's not their main style of play" - This can be done on the existing modes (Open/Private/Solo). Not a valid reason. Next,

(4) "and then there are those that have a real fear of 'gankers / griefers', personally some of the 'fears' IMHO are over stressed but I am not those individuals that feel that way, but I can empathise with them..." - I understand and I can empathize with you as well. That's why I don't grief; I just can't make myself to kill someone unprovoked. You can have two approaches to this phobia: face it (and overcome the irrational fear) or give up on it. Playing in the existing modes is a great way to becoming better. And while there might be few terrorists, there's a lot of helpful commanders out there willing to help you out. I might do some "tour of duty" with Iridium Wing after I finished my own exploration, to help returning explorers. Regardless of your approach, the game modes are sufficient in helping people on this category. So, this one is not a valid reason too.
 
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I'm looking for "valid reasons". And til now I haven't seen one. If you want, I'll examine the "reaons" you offered:
(1) "there are many psychological / medical reasons why people do not want any PVP but would love to PVE with other people" - I believe that's a good reason not to play games like this. If you have a heart condition, being killed by an NPC can trigger heart attack just as much a being killed by a griefer. If you have rage disorder, NPC can do that to you as well. It doesn't matter if you love PvE with other people. Your health/safety comes first.

(2) "There are also people who just don't want that sort of gameplay for other reasons as well" - I'm sorry I can't accept this as a valid reason. Moving to next,

(3) "...and some who don't mind a bit of PVP but it's not their main style of play" - This can be done on the existing modes (Open/Private/Solo). Not a valid reason. Next,

(4) "and then there are those that have a real fear of 'gankers / griefers', personally some of the 'fears' IMHO are over stressed but I am not those individuals that feel that way, but I can empathise with them..." - I understand and I can empathize with you as well. That's why I don't grief; I just can't make myself to kill someone unprovoked. You can have two approach to this phobia: face it (and overcome the irrational fear) or give up on it. Playing in the existing modes is a great way to becoming better. And while there might be few terrorists, there's a lot of helpful commanders out there willing to help you out. I might do some "tour of duty" with Iridium Wing after I finished my own exploration, to help returning explorers. Regardless of your approach, the game modes are sufficient in helping people on this category. So, this one is not a valid reason too.
Hm? why is not wanting to do things one does not enjoy not valid? Videogames are all about fun and enjoyment, its the only thing that matters (at least to me and many others).
 
Hm? why is not wanting to do things one does not enjoy not valid? Videogames are all about fun and enjoyment, its the only thing that matters (at least to me and many others).

If the "other reason" is "I just want to have a PvE mode. I know I will enjoy it. That's all.", that's not a valid reason. One of the three modes should be enough to cater all our stuffs in relation to this game.
 
If the "other reason" is "I just want to have a PvE mode. I know I will enjoy it. That's all.", that's not a valid reason. One of the three modes should be enough to cater all our stuffs in relation to this game.
So if peopole ask for any additional content because they would enjoy it then that request is not valid? Thats a rather alien view to me, I have asked for stuff and changes in all sorts of videogames and I always asked those because I tough those changes would be fun.
 
So if peopole ask for any additional content because they would enjoy it then that request is not valid? Thats a rather alien view to me, I have asked for stuff and changes in all sorts of videogames and I always asked those because I tough those changes would be fun.

There's a lot of constraints, the most important being development time. Ideally, it is good for the software company to implement every client's wishes, but that's not how reality works. Your request may add fun, but it's has to be compared with other priorities that the company thinks would add much better fun. And in that context, a "valid reason" has to be compelling enough to have its priority elevated. I just don't see that need. But then that's just my opinion based on experience and I don't have information on how actual FD development works under the hood.
 
sparks, go back and read through the thread, there are reasons such as disorders like PTSD where the commander can handle killing non human combatants but a human combatant would present a real issue... and as we can easily see human commanders due to the hollow square / triangle we then know it is another person...

I was not referring to heart problem patients specifically, perhaps you should do yourself a real favour and look back further in the thread (it was reasonably early on in the thread if my alzheimers serves me correctly)...

There are a myriad of valid reasons why people wish to play in a multiplayer PVE only environment... and not withstanding the equally valid reason of 'because that is the way they want to play'...

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There's a lot of constraints, the most important being development time. Ideally, it is good for the software company to implement every client's wishes, but that's not how reality works. Your request may add fun, but it's has to be compared with other priorities that the company thinks would add much better fun. And in that context, a "valid reason" has to be compelling enough to have its priority elevated. I just don't see that need. But then that's just my opinion based on experience and I don't have information on how actual FD development works under the hood.

oh please, the development time I think would be minimal for implementation... Show me how it would be a major undertaking to develop a PVE only mode for ED?
 
@capt_sparks: An Open PvE mode should not be that complicated to implement, and it would not affect those that want PvP. In short, it would provide an environment where all the solo players and disparate Private groups could freely congregate without having to expose themselves to unwanted PvP.
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The only alternative to this to my mind is to make PvP against clean players in lawful systems (or perhaps across the galaxy in general) so punitive on the aggressor that they would need to think carefully about the consequences before engaging in the activity. While some of the crime and punishment changes discussed recently does seem to address part of the underlying issues they probably do not go far enough. Even then though, that does not address the same issues that an Open PvE environment does.
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In short, if you want to play co-operatively with other players without the risk of PvP concerns then you should be able to. PvPers should not be able to force co-operative PvEers/PvXers to engage in PvP if that is not their wish and an Open PvE environment would provide that assurance. The current Open environment would still be there, and the only affect on PvPers should be that the current Open environment would become a place where ALL participants are happy to be the target of PvP action and possibly an environment where PvP action is treated more leniently than currently some would like it to be treated.
 
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It would be simple enough to offer the option and of the player said yes then to automatically put them in Mobius.

The tricky bit would be enforcing PvE only. That would require a whole extra set of coding.
 
I'm looking for "valid reasons". And til now I haven't seen one. If you want, I'll examine the "reaons" you offered:
(1) "there are many psychological / medical reasons why people do not want any PVP but would love to PVE with other people" - I believe that's a good reason not to play games like this. If you have a heart condition, being killed by an NPC can trigger heart attack just as much a being killed by a griefer. If you have rage disorder, NPC can do that to you as well. It doesn't matter if you love PvE with other people. Your health/safety comes first.

(2) "There are also people who just don't want that sort of gameplay for other reasons as well" - I'm sorry I can't accept this as a valid reason. Moving to next,

(3) "...and some who don't mind a bit of PVP but it's not their main style of play" - This can be done on the existing modes (Open/Private/Solo). Not a valid reason. Next,

(4) "and then there are those that have a real fear of 'gankers / griefers', personally some of the 'fears' IMHO are over stressed but I am not those individuals that feel that way, but I can empathise with them..." - I understand and I can empathize with you as well. That's why I don't grief; I just can't make myself to kill someone unprovoked. You can have two approaches to this phobia: face it (and overcome the irrational fear) or give up on it. Playing in the existing modes is a great way to becoming better. And while there might be few terrorists, there's a lot of helpful commanders out there willing to help you out. I might do some "tour of duty" with Iridium Wing after I finished my own exploration, to help returning explorers. Regardless of your approach, the game modes are sufficient in helping people on this category. So, this one is not a valid reason too.

Ad 1. Great, Capt_Sparks now started studying mental health disorders and physical health problems and has a perfect cure for them all. Should we change the moniker to Dr_Sparks now? Sorry dude, but what you are doing with this point is still you saying what sort of gameplay is valid and what is not and forcing your gameplay onto others.
Ad 2. Why can't you accept it as a valid reason? Would you care to elaborate a bit? Because "Moving to next" is not a valid argument in a discussion. And again, it's like saying: "I don't give a damn about what other players think and suggest, because it's only my opinion that counts and other people should      and do as I say. Or else I will throw a tantrum."
Ad 3. Well, PVP can't exactly be done in Solo (unless I repeatedly and purposely crash myself into and asteroid field :D Such fun!)
But what this actually means is that tere is a group of players who do not mind PVP when it's controlled in some way. For example, limited to certain areas (for example combat zones, extraction sites signal sources etc.), limited to certain people (people with bounties on them or people who want to pvp with you). And if you pay attention and read through the post, you will see that nobody really asks for a totally PVP free solution. What Frontier is being asked for in this thread is to create an option to play PVE, multiplayer and with PVP with consent. Currently known as "Open PVE"
But you're right, currently if somebody wants a bit of PVP, they can just go to Arena or Open or a Private Group with PVP and enjoy this type of gameplay. The option which is seriously limited despite a huge demand for it, is the option of being able to enjoy multiplayer and PVE environment, because current solutions for that do not work well. This is what this thread is about, in case you didn't notice. It's not about the players who want to PVP occasionally, those are already catered for by Frontier.

In one other multiplayer game I play, this was solved by providing 3 types of areas: 1 massive landmass without PVP, or rather with some zones where PVP is possible or encouraged 2. One even more massive landmass with PVP where you can kill other players, but you won't get any reward for that (which means players seldom get killed by other players there) 3. Multiple PVP areas throughout the game, with both rulesets (so ones without any extra PVP rewards and ones where you can loot other players). 4. One massive area where PVP is the ruleset and you can loot other players' remains. 5. Mini PVP combat arenas where you can try your skills against other players and train your PVP skills.
Guess what? Works like a charm. You want to PVP, you go to the area where all people consent to it. Don't get me wrong, you still get griefers every now and then (very rare due to various factors). I personally had the pleasure of taking them down. And of course, the community will complain about the griefers, but apart from that majority of people are entirely happy with such a solution. Well, except from the griefers who naturally are very vocal when it comes to forcing PVP onto everybody else, but just like here, they are a tiny minority.

Ad 4. It's not about a fear of griefers. It's about players simply not wanting PVP gameplay they didn't give their consent to. Some people (majority) don't enjoy that type of gameplay whilst still enjoy peaceful interaction with other players. And yes, it's only a game, it's not really a huge deal. But when you spend weeks on building something up and it gets blown up in minutes, feeling distressed is absolutely natural and valid. Not everybody is a masochist, you know...
 
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