A Game At Odds with Itself and Why

Did I mention the forums let me do that as well?

I enjoy playing the game for what it is, same as AntiFed does. I also don't see where either of us said or implied it was a perfect game without need of work. Matter of fact, in this very thread, I agreed that certains areas need work right now, and I'm withholding judgement on fixes for areas even David Braben says need work until I see the results of FD's efforts to that end.

I can't honestly think of any game I've ever played, designed, worked on, modded or heard of that was perfect, ever. Pray tell, what perfect game have played?

First of all, I didn't ask you anything. I asked Antifed. I was legitimately curious about why he is satisfied and believes half a million other players share his sentiment.
I really can't be bothered to address the fact that you believe people are asking for a "perfect game". I'd settle for "not broken".
 
OK. May I ask what's your solution to having space flight take time in a 1-to-1 scale replica of space? What's your solution to having crossing large distances taking a number of jumps? How would you make travel easier?
The issue with traveling is that it lacks any deeper involvement on your part. You just keep the ship pointed in the right direction and watch a countdown. Things get more interesting when you get close to a body, but these situations are few and far between.
 
For what's it worth, i agree with op. Han Solo lives in next to no profit universe, where he makes money, drinks till money are gone and goes on making money again. In Elite, we don't drink, we grind. Surplus accumulates and it has no purpose. Shame that no journalist caught him on his when he was pitching it.

Every game deals with endgame. Braben thought he could avoid it. (Endgame everywhere is, more or less, guild raiding).

I'll leave aside the Han Solo bit, that's just....yeah, moving on...

End game, there is no end game here, guess you missed that due to the fact that there's no raids, no bosses, no dungeons, no raid gear, no awesome loot and all that? And guess what, end game is NOT always about guild raiding. Didn't do any of that in DDO or LotRO or Planetside 2, sure as hell never did a guild ANYTHING in Borderlands(any of em) or The Witcher(any of em). Second Life, no end game there either, shall I continue or do you get the point? Battlefield(any of em), Call of Duty(any of em)...getting the message yet? You obviously have a very limited knowledge or experience with video games of any sort, much less online ones.

You picked up the wrong game it would seem, you are looking for, well, I don't know what you are looking for, but it's not Elite: Dangerous, not Star Citizen either, definitely not going to be No Man's Sky, might be Infinity: Battlescapes but since they've not said anything about end game I don't honestly know. EvE: Valkyrie maybe? I really don't know, but I do know this isn't that game...

Tawittle, didn't we already go over that whole 'online games need a PvP experience to survive' bit before? You want a PvP oriented game, you picked up a non-PvP oriented game, you've been demanding it be remade into something it's not, how's that going for you? Those windmills fleeing from you now or do they still stand there and laugh at your efforts?

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I'm curious. What part of the game do you find completely satisfying and without fault? What do you do when you play? Pirate, mine, explore, trade, bounty hunt, missions? I'm not being sarcastic because I really want to know. Maybe those of us that find fault with the game are doing it wrong.

First of all, I didn't ask you anything. I asked Antifed. I was legitimately curious about why he is satisfied and believes half a million other players share his sentiment.
I really can't be bothered to address the fact that you believe people are asking for a "perfect game". I'd settle for "not broken".

Really, you didn't ask about a perfect game, you sure about that, cause I'm pretty sure a game 'without fault' would be a perfect game, since that's the definition of perfect, to be without fault or flaw. And I even said, I couldn't speak for AnitFed, I simply gave my reasons, which you just tossed aside as trolling because it didn't fit your opinion.

As a troll, I'd have to rate you at 3/10, you really do need to work on it, not impressive at all...now, shall we continue this contest? Or can I untie my hands now?
 
I'll leave aside the Han Solo bit, that's just....yeah, moving on...

End game, there is no end game here, guess you missed that due to the fact that there's no raids, no bosses, no dungeons, no raid gear, no awesome loot and all that? And guess what, end game is NOT always about guild raiding. Didn't do any of that in DDO or LotRO or Planetside 2, sure as hell never did a guild ANYTHING in Borderlands(any of em) or The Witcher(any of em). Second Life, no end game there either, shall I continue or do you get the point? Battlefield(any of em), Call of Duty(any of em)...getting the message yet? You obviously have a very limited knowledge or experience with video games of any sort, much less online ones.

You picked up the wrong game it would seem, you are looking for, well, I don't know what you are looking for, but it's not Elite: Dangerous, not Star Citizen either, definitely not going to be No Man's Sky, might be Infinity: Battlescapes but since they've not said anything about end game I don't honestly know. EvE: Valkyrie maybe? I really don't know, but I do know this isn't that game...

Tawittle, didn't we already go over that whole 'online games need a PvP experience to survive' bit before? You want a PvP oriented game, you picked up a non-PvP oriented game, you've been demanding it be remade into something it's not, how's that going for you? Those windmills fleeing from you now or do they still stand there and laugh at your efforts?

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Really, you didn't ask about a perfect game, you sure about that, cause I'm pretty sure a game 'without fault' would be a perfect game, since that's the definition of perfect, to be without fault or flaw. And I even said, I couldn't speak for AnitFed, I simply gave my reasons, which you just tossed aside as trolling because it didn't fit your opinion.

As a troll, I'd have to rate you at 3/10, you really do need to work on it, not impressive at all...now, shall we continue this contest? Or can I untie my hands now?

Reading comprehension is your friend. I asked what PART of the game he finds without fault, not the entire game. You are trolling at this point and you aren't very good at it. Do me a favor, untie your hands and then use them to slap some sense into yourself. Thanks.
 
For what's it worth, i agree with op. Han Solo lives in next to no profit universe, where he makes money, drinks till money are gone and goes on making money again. In Elite, we don't drink, we grind. Surplus accumulates and it has no purpose. Shame that no journalist caught him on his when he was pitching it.

Every game deals with endgame. Braben thought he could avoid it. (Endgame everywhere is, more or less, guild raiding).

This quest for the End Game have destroyed so many online games. It has become an almost mystical thing in MMOs and they must have a end game. Yet I have never played a game where the player base is truly happy with the end game.

So elite Dangerous have avoided it, like they have avoided most of the other MMOs tropes that was leading the whole genre to a dead end. Nearly every game have resorted to guild raiding because they didn't have any clue how else to do it.

Wisely Frontier have avoided the trap, by making sure there is no end game, you choose how you live Elite Dangerous universe and you do that until rich or like me you just fly around in ASP and that probably took me 6 to 9 months to earn doing random missions, go and see the sights, explore the mysteries, do a few rare runs, fight pirates.

Hopefully the engineer expansion pack will send me on a quest around to customise my ship and make it a truly unique vessel among the stars.

I think procedurally generated universes is the way MMOs will go in the future as content creators relies they can never produce content quickly enough to keep players occupied more importantly paying subscriptions or merchandise/digital items so they must build systems that create this content procedurally, with tools to enable them to inject contents and stories into the system and have the universe flow around those story and content naturally.

Frontier aren't quite yet there but they are on the right path, I'm interested to see how Star Citizen's handle this in the future. No Man's Sky is another game I will be looking at. It just nice to get some originality back into MMOs instead of them all copying WOW to various degrees of competency.
 
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Great thread OP. Well written, well thought out & have to say I agree with a large amount of it. Have some rep.
Unfortunately, it led to the all too predictable types of replies that you've got. Another reason to skim read the forums these days and ignore most of it.
 
This quest for the End Game have destroyed so many online games. It has become an almost mystical thing in MMOs that a game somehow must have and yet I have never played a game where the player base is happy about this mythical end game.

So elite Dangerous have avoided it, like they avoided most of the other MMOs features that was leading the whole genre to a dead end. Nearly every game have resorted to guild raiding because they didn't have any clue how else to do it.

I agree. Look at a game like WoW. I've played that for more than 10 years, still do. However, the stop-start nature of the end-game that becomes irrelevant with the next expansion is jarring and tiresome. WoW might change that in the next expansion (sic) by introducing scaling similar to what has been done in games like Guild Wars 2.

ED is not about that, and the developer appears unlikely to fall into that trap. Instead we have a game that is expanding laterally, first by introducing Powerplay, CQC/Arena, Horizons, and soon Engineers, revamped missions and crafting. These will expand on existing elements rather than adding another tier that will be irrelevant in a few months time.

Of course there will be issues where a player feels he/she has done it all, flying the biggest and baddest ship there is and feeling there is no challenge left they can be bothered with. The MMORPG model suffers from that too; when we have downed the final raid boss, all we can do is rinse and repeat, maybe on more difficult levels or even *shudder* go for achievements. Eventually it is time to put the game aside and wait for the next patch/expansion providing more entertainment.

Thankfully, it doesn't appear that ED will head in that direction, although there are challenges meant for groups. If you tire of the game, play something else for a while. I assume you do the same with the MMORPGs.

:D S
 
Of course there will be issues where a player feels he/she has done it all, flying the biggest and baddest ship there is and feeling there is no challenge left they can be bothered with. The MMORPG model suffers from that too; when we have downed the final raid boss, all we can do is rinse and repeat, maybe on more difficult levels or even *shudder* go for achievements. Eventually it is time to put the game aside and wait for the next patch/expansion providing more entertainment.



Multi-Wing content, aka "raids" would make a lot of sense to attack a Capitol Ship, a Station, Outpost, etc.

But it could be done so that players in every level of ship could participate.

Imagine an Imperial station that is heavily damaged. There is a Federation Capital ship and support fleet attacking it.

Several things must happen:

Bring supplies to the station. This should be both NPCs and Players.
Keep the Capital ship and it's escorts busy while transports bring supplies to the station.

Scale it so that the battle will run for 30 to an hour, re-scaling as people come to help or leave.

And most importantly: Tie it to something else that is global, like BGS, PP, or something similar, like changing the status of trade in an area.

If/when we get first person, docking with the Capital ship and sabotaging it would also also be a good task for this "raid".
 
Core exploration gameplay is "solid" per Mr. Brookes, and will not be changed. Apparently "solid", like content, means different things to different people as well.

I would love to go out and explore, but last time I was visiting nebulas, found amoniac based life even on some planet, did from 6.000-10.000 ly trip and handed my data I earned 1.2 mil. But when I think how many times I'll have to watch that 4, 3, 2 ... 1 timer and how many stars I'll need to dodge I abandon the idea. Now if I had auto pilot and I can cook coffee and do stuff around the house while the ship is on it's way to the center of galaxy or around it... sure. I also need a nice route planner I guess. Doing all this flying manualy just seems like masochism.
 
I would love to go out and explore, but last time I was visiting nebulas, found amoniac based life even on some planet, did from 6.000-10.000 ly trip and handed my data I earned 1.2 mil. But when I think how many times I'll have to watch that 4, 3, 2 ... 1 timer and how many stars I'll need to dodge I abandon the idea. Now if I had auto pilot and I can cook coffee and do stuff around the house while the ship is on it's way to the center of galaxy or around it... sure. I also need a nice route planner I guess. Doing all this flying manualy just seems like masochism.

So even though you claim to enjoy it you dont do it because it didnt pay enough. But you would do it if you wouldn't have to do it yourself. Guess you enjoy it a lot then. Let me guess: if it paid a lot you'd call it a grind? :)
 
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Judging from the number of replies in such a short time the OP has clearly hit a nerve.

For the record, I agree with every word he said.

+1 rep.

And to clarify a couple of things:

Some people have speculated that I dont like the game. This is far from the truth. I dont spend time debating or discussing things I dont like. I do in fact love Elite. I am very fond of many of the ships, and enjoy the flight model.

But I want the game to be better than it is. No harm in wanting something that you enjoy, which you find to be merely good in terms of quality, to instead rise to greatness, is there? Elite has much room for improvement, and I would love to see it become the game Mr. Braben either desperately wishes or believes already that it is.

Long live Elite. And a sincere thanks to everyone for their thoughts on this issue. Much appreciated, your spending the time to chime in and discuss the game.
 
So even though you claim to enjoy it you dont do it because it didnt pay enough. But you would do it if you wouldn't have to do it yourself. Guess you enjoy it a lot then. Let me guess: if it paid a lot you'd call it a grind? :)

at this point I don't really care about the credits, I wouldn't be scanning any planets anyway just cause that scanner bar that is filling reminds me way too much on windows installer bars and I can't stand those bars and their please wait message :D I don't do it cause after seeing that timer on jump few thousand times I have no intention to watch it for 30.000 ly trip and dodge star in a same way whenever I drop out to a system. At this point it feels like grinding. So no matter how much I might enjoy visiting some new place or discovering something new on the trip there, there would be way too much stuff that would be going on my nerves on the way there.

Today I was thinking to do some long range hauling missions, but then I was like: can I really handle watching that count down timer for 420ly again, wait 30 seconds for warp animation to finish, dodge all the stars to my destination? And I came to conclusion, that no, it's just not worth it, no matter the payout. Now since I'm quite out and I haven't seen a living soul around here for ages and I would have to get back watching the damn timer and doding all those stars if I went back to civilization, after raising back to surface on station I rather exited the game and didn't even bother undocking. On the other hand if there was some auto pilot and I could do the dishes while all those countdowns are going on, sure, why not.
 
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Hmm... How did Braben do it before with much less advanced hardware?

I think you'd find the answer is: with more advanced wetware.

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That bolded bit always strikes me as...lazy I guess is the most safe word to use here. I've yet to go sit in a Rez to bounty hunt, I mean, I've literally never done that, and I've killed LOTS of pirates and wanted NPCs. Me, I load up an interdictor and go HUNTING, as that's actually part of the thing, bounty HUNTER, not bounty SIT IN A SPAWN LOCATION AND FARM MOBS

Ive done both "hunting" interdicting pirates and RES farming, while chasing down pirates in super-cruise may be more "fun" the net of profits is much lower in comparison to RES sites for time spent. While you can see the combat rating of a pirate in super-cruise you wont be able to scan their total value until you pull them into local. Which means lost time on bounties that just might not be worth the time for an interdiction on a single or wing of targets. Farming in Hazardous or HRES sites will increase your combat rating a lot faster, *A LOT FASTER* then hunting down single targets. Call it "Lazy" if you will but I would say a large chunk of the player base is looking to make money the most efficient way possible to get into better ship and thus "The bread n' butter".

Base Assaults,erm, yeah, no, I've made a lot doing those, they are so easy, couple of missiles or torps, bam, base defenders all gone, mission done in seconds.

Hmm perhaps I have just had bad luck with the mission rewards then, generally I only see them for 200-400k reward so I just don't bother anymore.

CQC, ALWAYS had rewards that tie into the main game, what are you talking about?

Ok, I probably should have been more specific. Grinding to Prestige rank just so you get a permit to access at a station with a 10% discount is not my idea of reward worth the time. Arguably you could have made more money just playing the game to cover the credits you would save grinding to that rank. I would like to see more match base performance rewards rather then a paltry 5k for being ace pilot in the match or on your team. If not a credit base reward then perhaps access to unique gear that would give you the edge in PvP in open. play. If they made improvements to the match making then that's a step in the right direction because it was a mess before. Personally CQC/Arena just feels like a quick cash grab by FD.
 
I'd play the game and enjoy the grind if only it had spaceflight.

Spaceflight was the glue that cemented the game together in FE2. The freedom to control your flight however you liked allowed imaginative variation that made up for the monotonous objectives.. it was all about the journey. Spaceflight is the game. The "play".

Releasing an Elite without spaceflight betrays such an incredible myopia and lack of oversight that for me, Frontier are a lost cause. I really do not care about the excuses, some things can't be compromised - if you can't do MP spaceflight then drop the blasted MP, not the central and defining game element!

And if you must have MP then drop the "Elite" farce until such time that spaceflight can be implemented.

ED is the antithesis of everything i loved about FE2. If i'd made a "worst case scenario" blacklist of all the most heinous blasphemies a failed E4 might commit, ED ticks most boxes. Seriously, don't get me started. It's just endless hours of dot-tracking - call it "flight" or "combat", it's ultimately dot tracking, with a big clunky joystick that i don't need for anything else, that ropes me in for hours on end (no autopilot or pause or time acceleration or savefiles), endlessly centering the screen on the little dots, be they ships, stations or planets, left a bit, up a bit, hour after tedious hour, and most bizarrely of all, no spaceflight - ships can go at ludicrous speeds, or a few hundred meters / sec, but nothing inbetween..? 99.9999% of the velocity range actual spaceflight would involve - ie. pretty much the entire experience, and everything that goes with it - is expressly precluded from the game.

Without freedom of motion it's just an empty, linear skeleton. Multiplayer combat submarines, hyperdrives or no, should be set against an aquatic backdrop, not an accurate skymap, which evokes expectations of spaceflight, which ED cannot and will never deliver. A fractured slideshow of minigames is no substitute for full unfettered freedom in a seamless living galaxy.

I haven't played in about a year now. Have the lifetime updates but can't even dignify "Horizons" with a playtest. Planetary transitions despite the space speed limit, that only some players can experience on the basis of how much they've paid..? Sacrilege piled upon travesty.

Yes i'm only here to complain. Perfectly valid reason, and thread.
 
It all comes down to one simple fact. Internet gave everyone, from every education background and every age group equal opportunity to voice opinions, .

Ah the Internet. One of the 7 wonders of the modern world that has given all the people a voice... which they use to moan about movies and videogames..
 
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agree with OP 100%

In ED the very few activities you can do, are incompatible with each other. This is problem because:
Ships locked behind ranks, special kinds of weapons locked behind powerplay, the best missions depends on base elite ranks, huge difference in available missions (long range smuggling single mission can pay 12mil credits VS combat mission destroy 74 pirates pays 3.5mil credits)
Occurance of different kind of missions is very uneven

Focusing on PP wont increase fed. or emp. rank
Focusing on supporting independed minor faction, forget about ships locked behind ranks and PP weapons
Exploration is not even incorporated in PP, exploration missions are the most pathetic of em all

The most efficient way to increase fed. emp. rank is sit in station and cycle open, solo, private and pick and pay charity missions...really ?? Then introduce "pay 2mil and gain next rank"
 
I can't find fault with the OP, and have to agree on almost all points.

If anyone stumbles across any of my other posts they'll probably find I sound like a stuck record*, but still. (* Note for moderns: they were like those old 'CD' things your parents used, but bigger.)

I played Elite as a young'un, played Frontier (FE2) on the Amiga, and First Encounters when that came out. Loved all of them. Elite, because it was the first open-world, free-roaming game I'd really played; FE2 and FFE because they made a 'space sim' that actually did - on both counts. FE2 gave us the biggest game world I'd ever seen, and that was on a single floppy disk in 1993. Twenty-two years ago.

And then there was talk of Elite IV.

I could only imagine what that would be like - but what I knew for sure is that it would be awesome. If FE2/FFE were a leap forward from Elite, Elite IV would surely introduce a vastly more detailed game world, and hopefully an even more sophisticated flight simulation to go with it. There'd be more complex interactions with NPCs, plenty of Han Solo/Mal Reynolds-esque stuff to do - or Jack Sparrow-esque, or Marco Polo-esqe, or whoever-the-hell-you-wanted-esque.

We didn't get Elite IV. The way I've come to think of it is that we got Elite One-And-A-Half. Please don't misunderstand me: I'm very well aware that a lot of people have worked very hard indeed on this project, and I'm not going to sit here and say it isn't an impressive achievement. Particularly in terms of some of the visuals, and the sound work that's gone into ED is fantastic. I'm not dissing your game or your work just for the hell of it.

Ooo - plus, the rendering of surrounding stars accurately into the starfield visible in each system? Magnificent.

But...

This isn't what Elite IV could have been. Most of what made FE2 and FFE as great as they were has been stripped out. The first thing to hit me was the flight mechanics: Newtonian scrapped in favour of aeroplane physics - and why? Because combat wasn't exciting enough in FFE. Because fights turned into 'jousts', and that wasn't arcade-fun enough.

Elite - the original - was mostly about fighting; but FE2/FFE were evolving beyond that. Yes, it was still an element, and cropped up occasionally - but there were other ways to play. There were challenges to be had just in learning to fly the ship, to navigate... There was challenge in learning to master the simulation. But no: ED is a combat game. That's the spine of it; the be-all and end-all. If combat isn't exciting enough, the game is a failure. People won't want to play a game that isn't founded on combat, will they?

Nobody ever played Flight Simulator. Nobody ever plays Orbiter, or Pioneer. Nobody plays Euro/American Truck Simulator. Nobody's ever spent hundreds of dollars on DLC for RailWorks.

Before anyone jumps on me for daring to like a different type of game to them, and implying that everyone should only play the games I like... well, yes, I do; but no, I'm not. No, if you like pure-combat space arcade games then that's absolutely fine. But the OP's right: the vision of the game as it was - and still is - described by DBOBE doesn't gel with what ED actually is; and certainly it doesn't match up to what the Next Elite Game might reasonably have been expected to be. That is, a detailed, immersive, easy-to-learn-but-difficult-to-master space simulation with realistic flight, detailed trading/smuggling, actual detailed exploration (planetary mapping! Landing and surveying! Sampling! Reporting colonisable worlds back for rewards! Getting to name them!)...

mortenfischer was quick to weigh in and imply that the game was not 'meant to be' these things - but that's the point: the game ED was 'meant to be' is a straightforward arcade dogfighter in space. Trading is a nothingy activity, for all it makes credits - it doesn't feel like anything much. And the inclusion of rares trading, with its guarantees of profit over distance, pretty much makes ordinary trading irrelevant. Exploration is literally nothing: arrive, honk, scan, move on. Yes, Horizons has gone some way to reintroducing part of a basic feature of predecessor games - but ED is still running to catch up with its own 1990s ancestors.

It shouldn't have been multiplayer, I think, to start with. That's the core of some of the problems. It's certainly the reason we've had to throw out the physics of the Elite universe to date, and it's the reason why going to Sag A* or even crossing the galaxy is a relatively trivial thing. Relatively: I'm not saying it doesn't take time, and it certainly isn't something I'd have patience for. But it isn't something you'd have entertained on a whim in First Encounters, because it would've taken in-game years to get there. But multiplayer is certainly the reason the game's player base is fractured and restive: the Open-Vs-Everyone-Else debate rages on, as circular and stormy and apparently permanent as Jupiter's red spot - and that debate isn't going to go away, because ED is trying to please everyone, and people want different things from the same game.

Eh. TLDR, I know. Short version: by the standards of the kind of game it ended up being - an arcade space dogfighter - ED is pretty damn pretty. An excellent piece of work, by those lights. Measured against what it could have been with twenty years' gain on FFE, let alone the vision Mr B. continues to articulate, Elite Dangerous is honestly disappointing.
 
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