Is it just 'grinders' who feel the game lacks depth?

[Jools]

I would say its the opposite

Its the grinders who enjoy the game and its those who don`t enjoy the grind that feel that the game is lacking (obviously there are also other players outside of this bipolar division)

 

[Jex =TE=]

i think this is why so many of us are hyped for 2.1......... whilst it may not seem like much, putting a name and a face to all those guys giving us missions, esp because they persist, and we can build a rep and actually see how we are treated differently (apparently.... proof in the pudding and all that) but I really think (hope) that 2.1 will start to give some personality to the elite universe.

imo it is hard to argue FD have done a simply outstanding job of creating a fantastic game arena, they have build a brilliant (imo) flight model with great ships to fly, and cracking stations to land at etc..... What ED needs now, and arguably has needed for some time, is to inject the human element into the game (by this i mean characters, not meat suits.... the REAL human element is already there, for better or for worse )

LOL can't rep you again and yes, let's hope the new update brings us more to meaningful content and makes the universe start to come to life which is what we've been asking for since launch (and before no doubt from some of the early backers)

 

[who?]

perhaps i did not explain well... (and yes perhaps i did over egg (a little) how easy exploration is)

it is not that i think it should take 2 years to get to Sag A now....... it is that i think it should have taken 2 years to get to Sag A the 1st time.

once the route is mapped, then i think the travel mechanisms we have now is fine, I just think the 1st time we go to a new destination (or one which has not had the route sold to universal cartographics) that it should take longer and involve some form of "work", and it is that "work" which separates the exploration from mere tourism.

of course that "work" needs to be enjoyable, and embrace some interest/excitement, or at least promise the potential of one or the other of those things.

I really like this idea, it makes exploring far more meaningful and impactful. I'm not quiiiite sure about the 2 years though, that sounds excessive to me. It means players would need to devote 2 years to exploring/pathfinding with no other activity (combat/trade).

It'd be nice too if the pathfinder (or first discoverer, as the game is now) got a small fee for everyone who visits a system they've scanned (payment for plotting all the obstacles/dangers). Again, just something that makes the exploration mean something.

 

[Jex =TE=]

This is actually true in any game. Once you know the mechanics, how things work, there's not much left to do but beat the game and move on. Except, Elite has no 'win' scenario. Then the question for this game is 'What next?' I can certainly give you lots of answers to that...but they only are expansions using the same basic mechanics. On that, I have no answers. You have to find a way to keep enjoying playing the game.

Falcon 4
Armed Assault all versions
Enemy Engaged
EuroTruck Simulator
Farming Simulator

and many more games don't have any end game or win scenarios either and are far more engaging to play than ED is.

 

[Eldrazzi]

I try to avoid grinding in ANY game not just ED. But saying this "game" has depth????

Drop down to a planet, fly around and explore ALL the POI's you come across. Record your results and post them. Here's 4 hours o f this "deep" game:

POI 01: Wreckage with occupied escape pod (1) and personal weapons (1)
POI 02: Wreckage with data point (1)
POI 03: Wreckage with bertrandite (1)
POI 04: Wreckage with occupied escape pod (2) and personal weapons (1)
POI 05: Wreckage with occupied escape pod (2) and personal weapons (1)
POI 06: Wreckage with data point (1)
POI 07: Wreckage with occupied escape pod (2) and narcotics (1)
POI 08: Wreckage with occupied escape pod (2) and narcotics (1)
POI 09: Wreckage with occupied escape pod (2) and narcotics (1)
POI 10: Wreckage no items
POI 11: Wreckage with personal weapons (1) and animal meat (1)
POI 12: Wreckage with data point (1)
POI 13: Wreckage with occupied escape pod (2) and narcotics (1)
POI 14: Wreckage no items
POI 15: Wreckage with data point (1)

Oh so deep.

 

[Ignition]

Indeed.

The definition of shallow to many is the absence of imposed hallways and steps so to speak that dictate what you are to do next, and what you cannot.

To engage a game like this and experience that freedom and aliveness requires one to operate from self depth.
The only way one can possibly perceive this game as shallow is if one requires those hallway handrails and walkers and all those imposed story line dictates that appear to create depth...when in fact that form of depth refers to superficial cognitive slavery.

That grind will immediately release as soon as one releases demand for the game to dictate your next action and determine what that action actually means.

No.

How many times... Its not about the story, its about the gameplay and replayability which the game has very very low because its not complex enough. So you end up "grinding" because you do repetitive and very SIMPLE task: Mining, trading, BH, CZ, Nav Beacons, RES, Exploration. The core of the game is too simple to be enjoyable repetitive times.

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Everyone has there opinion and I truly feel for those that already are bored with ED but, to me, when I picture it in my mind I see two kids at a playground. One is having fun running around trying the various equipment provided and playing with other children. The other is bored because a parent isn't there to tell them to go swing, or slide or to play with other kids.

If you stop waiting for the "parent" to tell you what to do and instead go and see what you can discover and are still bored, well I honestly feel for you, because us other kids are having a lot of fun. This is just an analogy, I'm not calling anyone a child.

Its not about "hand holding". Its about gameplay design.

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Yes but your mixing up your adjectives, combat isn't mindless - combat is the only part of the game that actually challenges your mind. Which is why there are constantly posts of people complaining about being blown up by A.I. or being unable to escape interdictions but never posts about people being unable to make profit trading or unable to fly around exploring.

RES, Nav Beacons and CZ are mindless.

Combat is the best part of the game though it needs A LOT of improvements. In fact has the best placeholders at the moment of any other activity.

 

[NextGame]

Occasionally people encounter capital ships in combat zones. From what I've read they fight and fight and then when they can take no more punishment they run away. After a year and 3 months I have not yet encountered one .

That's about it on the interesting/engaging events that might happen.

USS's could be considered interesting events but because you have to "wait for them to spawn" they feel less like interesting events and more like random encounters - kinda like running around in Final Fantasy VII on Playstation back in the nineties. Occasionally something random would pop up and you would have an encounter and occasionally it was peculiar or funny. You would make the random encounter happen by literally running backwards and forwards on the same two spots, similar to how we just throttle down and wait for the USS to spawn in front of us.

Fortunately in 2.1 they are changing how these occur (or at least baking them into the Mission system somewhat) so, all being well, this should make what used to be USS into something more like 'interesting events', at particular locations, rather than just random encounters that "spawn" right under your nose.

The sooner 2.1 hits the better, anything that has the potential to inject some life into this game is welcome.

They need to be varied to be worthwhile though, there's only so many funeral/wedding barges you can run into before it becomes the same old same old, so they really, really, need to expand on the scenarios that they have in place for those kind of events.

 

[Viajero]

In my game I can't land on planets - what do you suggest I do?

Shall I post other explo vids from the time before horizons hit?

 

[Ignition]

*Mod hat off



I think this response is precisely an example why the OP is right on the money in many respects. If you agree with the quote above then you may be very close to enter in full the "grinding" mode and "gaming the game" territory. Which is also a perfectly valid way to play the game, dont get me wrong, but one that I suspect will make you burn out faster imho.

On the other hand you have players who currently enjoy exploration in a very very different way to what you would imagine or expect from more traditional MMO´s and very differently to what the quote above suggests, i.e. emergent actions and activities that have their own depth and fun in the sand of this great sandbox. And by their standards, there seems to be depth a plenty, plenty of things to learn and decisions to make. Just not the way you may like it to be.

There are plenty of things that can be done to improve many aspects of the game and its mechanics (including exploration), no doubt, but thinking of exploration (as the quoted example) as shallow because it is just honking and jumping is a bit disingenuous:

Oh man I imagine Distant Worlds in a real game enviroment like they was proposed in the DDA, That would be awesome!!! but FD decided to do a game for kids instead. Jump, honk, fly straight and wait for spining thing to finish. Repeat n times as you want.

 

[Viajero]

*Mod hat off

I appreciate what you're saying but you're migrating the features of gameplay towards the artistic and technical merits of the experience.

No, not really. That seems to be just the only part of exploration that you want to acknowledge. As mentioned there is a whole suite of already existing explo mechanics and content you can navigate through, compromise with and details that you choose to ignore as not relevant for depth.

"From ship, build, path, waypoints, jumponium synthesis and jump range optimizing, risks on navigating surfaces etc all aspects converge to add to it. Our explo threads are full of guides and commanders asking for advice to prepare and perform and discuss such trips (just take a look at the Distant Worlds coordination and preparation/follow up threads), and not only in this forum. There is a significant amount of material issues to learn for it, to do it well."

Handwaving all those is your choice I reckon, you just may not like it or particularly enjoy it (and that is fine), but many other players choose not to handwave those and hence find the necessary depth to make the activity rewarding and engrossing to undertake. The artistic aspect is just one of the rewards.

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

The "lack of depth" is real.

I can hunt down a so called "important" person yet it seems to affect the BGS so less that this person clearly wasn't important.
I can shoto down a lot of guys on a minor faction that I am Allied with, (like when going into a warzone) and they still love me for killing 100 of their pilots.

So the question si, of those who claim this game HAS depth, where is this depth? Mr braben now said it too, peopel repeat the same stuff over and over again too often. That is caused not by the want for grind, thats a result of not enough menaingful things to do.

You come across a poor guys beign stranded, but you have no chance to refuel him when you don't have fuel limpets wit you. Because the emchanics make him "disappear" before you can return in case you would like to help him. And even then the effect for helping such a guy is ratehr low.

I surely do not expect as a single pilot to change the economy of an ENTIRE system. but when I empty the entire stock of a stations good within 30 minutes shouldn't this significantly (even for a short period of time) have some rather drastic effect on the prices?

Warzone are so meaningless, rather low income in credits, and not any change for the faction by reputation you battle. And of course even after 100's of ships neither the faction your fought for nor the one you opposed change your alignment to you to a mattering degree. Or even speaking about the outcome towards this war. How is that not shallow?

Yes a rather good amont of things should not be soemthing a single player can do to change an entire universe. But many things should react way more dynamic on the palyers behavior. Especially how factions behave towards the player and his will to kill this factions NPC's, how he even denies scans and such things. But it all does not do this.

So all we can do now is hope FD has gotten the message that the game lacks some very basic "logics" in the BGS that should exist and delivers them. Because it is the salt that makes the game spicy. Also FD REALLY needs to work on the balance between effort/reward for specific activities.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Non-grinder here. Nope, no issues with depth.

I do look forward to new features, new depth, new things to do. But i knew when i bought into the game it was going to be a long journey and that not everything would be fleshed out at the start.

Anyway, i'm cool.

Thanks for asking though.

 

[NextGame]

And the saddest thing is that your opinion is soundless for Frontiers. They have already got what can get from you and are not interested in if you are satisfied or not. The current payment scheme is extremely developers’ profit friendly and puts the players, especially LTEP owners in *Silence of the lambs* novel. You have to count on their good will.

Agreed, and heres the crazy thing. If the game was actually worth playing, I would be playing it, as it is a game I really wanted to get made. I would also buying all the skins from the store etc, instead of putting hundreds £ into other titles I currently play, as I would be playing this instead. Being realistic however, this iteration of Elite is increasingly "minimal viable product" rather than the something special it should have been.

 

[Insomnia]

Mr braben now said it too, peopel repeat the same stuff over and over again too often.

I'm a little curious, where did he say that?

 

[Viajero]

*Mod hat off

Oh man I imagine Distant Worlds in a real game enviroment like they was proposed in the DDA, That would be awesome!!! but FD decided to do a game for kids instead. Jump, honk, fly straight and wait for spining thing to finish. Repeat n times as you want.

Yes, let´s just tell all those commanders taking part in the expedition that what they are doing is so made for kids and just so much about honking that they shouldnt be having any of the fun that those tons of videos suggest they are having or discussing any of the details of those trips in order to navigate the depth of the explo activity in the game. How dare they.

Jokes aside, need to add here my usual caveat that there are many aspects of the game, including explo, that would benefit from new or improved mechanics, no doubt.

 

[Ignition]

Elite appeals to me, since I can roleplay in my head as I'm doing things. I play a pompous Imperial Baron who deals in human trafficking, gliding around in my Imperial White Anaconda (with a blue hud), occasionally dipping my toes in a hazres to practice my combat tactics, all the while sucking up to ALD so I can get the rights to utilize the Imperial Hammer, the epitome of imperial over-engineering to turn a deadly weapon, into a weapon that may or may not be legal in certain systems.

I think a lot of the problems that people have with the game, is that you've really got to imagine a lot of things in your mind. My selling mass slaves only pads my bank account in-game; I've got to imagine the reality of what I'm doing. Players unable to roleplay without the game deliberately telling them what they're doing just see "A->B->A->B" trading and mindless NPC slaughter grinding, and even more grinding to get a slightly better railgun.

EDIT: I should also add, that I think Elite would do well to actually flesh out their universe. I'm able to imagine stuff, some people aren't, and there's nothing wrong with that. Frontier need to add more impact to our actions, and hopefully they'll move in that direction with future patches.

I can imagine whatever on a pen & paper RPG, on a PC I feel like a stupid doing so. Like... I paid to use my imagination? And the mechanics? The enviroment? The life?

You can imagine whatever you want but you can't change the gameplay mechanics and those in this game are horrible simplistic.

 

[Jenner]

I'm a little curious, where did he say that?

I believe it's from this interview:
http://www.pcgamer.com/david-braben-on-arena-and-the-future-of-elite-dangerous/

 

[Rudolphus]

1. buying spaceships and outfitting is meant that you must grind because they have make it expensive when your spaceship was ment as a tool for your own imagination it would have been make inexpensive because you spend your time in playing the game.
2. Powerplay is ment as a grind because they wanted to experiment with a sort of clash of titans or candy crush type of game instead of make it a immersion game like rise of rome or total war.
3. doing missions for your own minor faction is also a grind because you must do allot of missions to have it move 5% and then you get also the repeating of doing the same missions all over i did get in one week to kill the same npc again.

I hope the delay of 2.1 will make it better the length of delay let it look it will be a big overhaul and that is also a reason they did stop talk about it in the dev notes.
I also think multicrew expansion is a bad decision or they must have as surprise release capital ships for groups that we can outfit and have our own decals and have big space battles.
but I don't think that will happen because it seems multicrew will only be about 4 seats and a sort of magic jump in the chair mechanic without walk around on the bridge.
they should have first concentrated on walking around and that people can meet up in space bars for meetup multi crew or wings, and that powers have a boardroom on the HQ station for strategy planning instead we must do this on reddit.

 

[Phyl]

I agree with OP. I've never 'gamed the game', I've never done anything I'd call grinding. I've never been bored. There is SO much I want to try but haven't had chance to yet!

Since launch I've only amassed a grand total of about 85 million (with probably 4-6 hours game time per week on average). I guess I'm not a 'goal-oriented' player - or at least my goals are more abstract than credits and ships. I can see this game having many years of play-time for me yet.

I genuinely feel I've only just scratched the surface.

 

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

I would not directly say that the game is shallow.

The Background simulation is very interesting BUT it is not obvious, or lets say, not obvious enough that you are affecting a whole System.
Once you complete a mission, you get this teenie tiny Screen saying that you made some changes on the state of a faction and you close it quickly without paying much attention to it.
You just cannot display the state of a System and the people living in it in a more or less-filled bar. That... just doesnt feel right

How about this:

Imagine you get a Message saying that you really helped the people living in the station and that it would be greatly appreciated if those deliveries would continue.
Followed with a goal of X-number of tons from X-Commodity to have a greater effect. Maybe even a bonus for each tonne of cargo delivered.

The game is not shallow, the player is just not tightly weaved into it.
IMO, FD is doing good to rework the missions that you get, lets just hope it aint just minor changes.