Powerplay yet again about open/solo and 5th column

[ever]

open/solo

the main reason for it seems to be protection. You cannot have a competitive game like Power Play, where you compete against other people without other people. The "solo player" should play in open and have 100% re-buy and a mark to let other people know. You could for example make the solo player choose a home system, so that in case of a tragic accident, he always spawns in the same location. The home system could be changed once per day. Instancing takes care most time of the rest and offers some protection. Or make the solo player or private group play their own game. It makes a multiplayer game extremely lame to have it share and affect the same universe in the same way but for some without danger. You could even introduce some modules available only for solo players, that increase your chances of Survival in open. Like an invincibility shield, that you can activate by choice, when you are in solo.


5th column

Your initial idea to have only the top 5 players of a Power choose the expansion targets was and still is great. It's a shame you haven't implemented it. Power Play can only survive, if the number of 5th columnists stays relatively low. It takes only one organized group to migrate to a foreign Power and Power Play breaks in frustration and resignation for the entire game. Please introduce this safe mechanism for Power Play as soon as possible.


Please make your general vision regarding Power Play know to us. At this point my main reason for not quitting Power Play is the time I have already invested in it. Without Power Play Elite is a very good space sim.

thank you!

 

[Bigglesof206]

Making everyone play in open works IF all the players cooperate, and organise well enough to provide escorts for the group fortifying etc. In other words you need far more cooperation than has ever been seen in a computer game. To carry enough supplies to keep your rank requires either a large, pretty easy to destroy ship, that is never going to survive an enemy wing, or something more survivable that will have enough cargo space to make you work 24/7 to achieve anything.

I would have thought a FAR bigger issue is that what appears to me (at least) to be the vast majority of PP players pay no attention to their reddits, and just go fortify/prep wherever is most convenient for racking up quick merits, and hang what the 'real' players are trying to achieve - it seems to me a bit like a game of football, where 18 of the players don't bother working out which goal is which before they play.

Tell you what, there'd be a lot more playing in open if wings were banned and all PvP was 1v1....I'm not saying I want that, I accept that many players really get off on PvP and I wouldn't want to remove that option from them, but enemy fighter wings are incompatible with flying a truck.

I'd totally agree that there should be a mechanism where somebody - I'd suggest the Reddit based leadership of each power - decide the expansion targets, which would pretty much screw the 5C stuff to a fair degree.... but the flipside to that is that, for real immersion etc, there really ought to be some opportunity to 5C a power, I just think the current method is a bit too effective. The top 5 players of a power - how would you decide that? Base it on merits, for example, and it's likely to see a lot of over fortification of those systems we already complain about....Groombridge, for example.....

The law of unforeseen circumstances springs to mind, I think PP needs a big workover, but if it is to be done then it should be done properly - I think FD had a good go at getting it right, and allowing for a few things that didn't/don't work right they came up with something that is actually better than we generally give them credit for.... I don't want quick fixes that lead to silly unforeseen consequences, I'd like to see it getting a well thought out and well planned upgrade. (Thanks for fixing my double bonus BH money by the way FD, so glad you produced a fix for things that really bug me..I was really hoping to see my earnings halved rather than any of that silly stuff like getting the missions to work properly, and you came through for me bigtime.)

Dave
/sarcasm off (for that last note)

Dave

 

[Arry]

The issue I have is above. To do it right, or the way, some people what me to play it, is to go to another web-site and do what is suggested there. All the time, we have different individuals dictating what we have to do, we have chaos. The requirements, the tasks for the cycle, should be set, in an Elite, Power play web site and should be set with those we understand, are in authority.

Solo 5th columns, will always be an issue and has no answer to date. At the same time, we cannot force players into Open, just to play, one aspect of the game.

 

[Tataboj]

Yes. If players don't play in multiplayer, then they shouldn't be allowed to multiplayer assets.

 

[Arry]

Yes. If players don't play in multiplayer, then they shouldn't be allowed to multiplayer assets.

They are not 'multi-player' assets. They are Power play rewards.

 

[Martin Schou]

Convince me why it's a great idea to have someone who spent 60 hours combat grinding merits decide the next expansion target over someone who spent 20 hours hauling fortification merits and 40 hours working out an overall strategy.

Once you've done that, explain to me what is to stop someone from pledging to a power they dislike, spend 60 hours combat grinding merits and then get a massive say (20%) in which systems that power get to try to expand into.

Nothing in your suggestion actually makes it more difficult to sabotage a power - in fact it makes it a lot easier than it currently is.

 

[Crumly]

Making everyone play in open works IF all the players cooperate, and organise well enough to provide escorts for the group fortifying etc. In other words you need far more cooperation than has ever been seen in a computer game. To carry enough supplies to keep your rank requires either a large, pretty easy to destroy ship, that is never going to survive an enemy wing, or something more survivable that will have enough cargo space to make you work 24/7 to achieve anything.

I would have thought a FAR bigger issue is that what appears to me (at least) to be the vast majority of PP players pay no attention to their reddits, and just go fortify/prep wherever is most convenient for racking up quick merits, and hang what the 'real' players are trying to achieve - it seems to me a bit like a game of football, where 18 of the players don't bother working out which goal is which before they play.

Tell you what, there'd be a lot more playing in open if wings were banned and all PvP was 1v1....I'm not saying I want that, I accept that many players really get off on PvP and I wouldn't want to remove that option from them, but enemy fighter wings are incompatible with flying a truck.

I'd totally agree that there should be a mechanism where somebody - I'd suggest the Reddit based leadership of each power - decide the expansion targets, which would pretty much screw the 5C stuff to a fair degree.... but the flipside to that is that, for real immersion etc, there really ought to be some opportunity to 5C a power, I just think the current method is a bit too effective. The top 5 players of a power - how would you decide that? Base it on merits, for example, and it's likely to see a lot of over fortification of those systems we already complain about....Groombridge, for example.....

The law of unforeseen circumstances springs to mind, I think PP needs a big workover, but if it is to be done then it should be done properly - I think FD had a good go at getting it right, and allowing for a few things that didn't/don't work right they came up with something that is actually better than we generally give them credit for.... I don't want quick fixes that lead to silly unforeseen consequences, I'd like to see it getting a well thought out and well planned upgrade. (Thanks for fixing my double bonus BH money by the way FD, so glad you produced a fix for things that really bug me..I was really hoping to see my earnings halved rather than any of that silly stuff like getting the missions to work properly, and you came through for me bigtime.)

Dave
/sarcasm off (for that last note)

Dave

what you've said is purely ridiculous. It's pretty obvious that like most things, FD designed fortification open in mind, not solo. Your perception of the design of it is skewed because of how it has played out due to solo being an option.

If solo/private was not allowed for power play, the outlying systems would rarely get fortified OR undermined. Players would fortify their core, and to get possible boosts might take the riskier trips out to the profitable systems. Likewise, nobody would sit there undermining unless they wanted PVP in their face. If anyone saw a system getting undermined OR fortified they would rally there to stop the enemy.

It is a RVR system to encourage PVP among willing participants.

If a power play designer got on here and started talking about things they didn't think were likely to happen, I bet right near the top would be "every system fortified AND undermined EVERY WEEK".

The only problem with Powerplay is that you CAN do it solo/private so what has happened is you cannot protect anything so you have to go super far         overboard and fortify EVERYTHING and over prepare      9000% just so players don't 5th colum your preparation list in solo mode.

Like     ... there shouldn't even really be a need to for subreddits or sub forums, you aren't even supposed to fortify 100 LY out because nobody is supposed to undermine it either... It would be something the most organized power play clans would attempt to do to drum up extra CC.

When I look at how power play is actually being played I think it's a         disgrace, and the main reason is solo.

FD KNEW players would over fortify the      out of the close systems, that is why they aren't worth much CC and if they were undermined would be disastrous to your CC balance.

Other games with objective based RVR (if you don't know what RVR means ... you're out of your water) are purely multiplayer games. All this arguing is silly and is argued by people who have only ever looked at power play in the context that is currently played.


FD won't change any of this so power play will remain a farce and arguing about it is just for fun, not for a chance of anything to improve.

 

[SixxGunnz]

First off I play power play in open just because that's what I think is right, but FD has stated many times that they designed their game to be played in any mode and they have no plans to ever change that.
With that being said I don't think someone playing in solo is doing it just for protection. Power play as a whole is not designed as a multiplayer only and the game mechanics don't support that ether. I know if Iam fortifying or even undermining there are large portions of time I never see another player. Let's take undermining if you only make it pvp 80% of the systems could not be undermined simply because no one would be around to interdict to earn merits. Same with fortifying.
The system we have now is not great but it has function. If you want to stop what's going on you just have to undermine or fortify your oppositions efforts to do the same. If they are undermining a system weather solo or open your power needs fortify that system to oppose them. Solo player actions can be opposed by the game mechanics the same as open can.
If you are simply making this argument because you want more pvp action, well sorry FD doesn't want that and I know a lot of people who play this game and enjoy it purely for the game itself and are not looking for player interaction.
A mechanic I wish FD would put in as an alternative power play option would be something like domination. It would be pvp only and the way you move the powers boundaries is the go into a system and fight for control of that systems assets. The defenders battle to keep the invading power from capturing space stations and planetary landings and the invading power has to clear the system of defending ships and land troops of various numbers depending on the target to secure it. This way if you secure that systems assets that power gains control of that system. You would have the big system pvp battles that some want and a way the expand a powers territory. It would also allow those players that want to play in what ever mode they want to effect system out comes also.
Mid anyone remembers the WW II flight sim aces high will remember that's how you moved the map was actually fighting to clear the skies, eliminate the defensive weapons and then bring in a transport to secure the target. Sometimes the fight for one base would last for days.
Anyway me personally I would love to see some thing similar come to Elite. Until then we have what we have.

Typed on my phone so sorry for any mistakes. Fat fingers and small buttons you know.

 

[Martin Schou]

A lot of the stuff you're saying makes absolutely no sense.

Frontier has made it clear ever since the beta that everything in the game is designed to be played in any mode, be it solo, private or open.

Secondly, powers don't fortify everything unless they have to to stay out of turmoil.

Powers prepare systems to large numbers, not just to avoid sabotage preps, but also to out-prepare the other powers that are competing in that space. Throw in grinders who just prepare whatever is closest/most profitable just for good measure. It doesn't matter if they're doing that in solo or not - the numbers involved are so huge, that anyone trying to stop it would end up turning themselves hostile to the entire major power for their actions.

And what gave you the idea that close in systems aren't worth CCs? Sol is the most valuable system in PowerPlay and it is 29 LY from Hudson's HQ. Aloith is another of the most valuable systems in PowerPlay, and that is worth 191 CC. It's almost as if you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about

Other games with objective based RVR (if you don't know what RVR means ... you're out of your water)

And that seals it. Not only do you not know what you're talking about, you also have an overinflated sense of selfworth simply because you know a technical term.

 

[Bigglesof206]

With respect
"what you've said is purely ridiculous. It's pretty obvious that like most things, FD designed fortification open in mind, not solo. Your perception of the design of it is skewed because of how it has played out due to solo being an option."
- is both somewhat insulting, and plain wrong - FD designed the game to be played in all available modes, just because you disagree with what some players are doing, given that freedom, does not make your opinion 'the truth'.

As for players fortifying their core - fortification involves picking up supplies at your power's base, which for my power at least frequently has a powerful enemy presence (a cutter in their the other day with a highly regarded PvPer flying it), which pretty much blocks your ability to collect supplies...and instancing that makes it a lottery whether you encounter the good guys, the bad guys, both, or neither.

Clearly this is simply an extension of the open/solo endless debate, I for one would happily support PP being limited within a group - fine ny me if we have a solo powerplay and an open version, with never the twain meeting. I'm sure everyone in open will have a real ball, all 20 of you fortifying like crazy all week.

'(if you don't know what RVR means ... you're out of your water)' - I do, actually, but thanks for the attempt to establish your superiority here with a condescending throwaway.

Dave

ps Sixxgunnz - bang on the money, have some commonsense rep.

 

[xondk]

open/solo

Having played a lot of various games so far, in games where a mechanic is not directly related to PvP, and PvP "only" destroys enemies and similar, but doesn't affect the conflict they are fighting over, well, PvP is significantly less important then many people seem to think in my mind.
Take a simple situation like a capture the flag or assault style game, where you have an objective, there's people running around working on 'kills' yet their team loses big time regardless of their big kill score, because the point is not the amount of kills people do, but how good they do objectives.....powerplay is similar in that, regardless if everyone was in open and matchmaking was perfect, I seriously doubt it would make a big difference, maybe a slight dent but that's it. Use the powerplay mechanics as they are intended to win, saying being able to kill other players will make a difference seems silly.

 

[Bacalao]

This is silly, the solo/group crowds cancel each other out. You have some guys in solo doing stuff, they have some guys in solo doing stuff. It all comes out in the wash. Also, what about people in isolated parts of the world, or with connections so poor the MM server never instances them with other players? Should they be singled out too? I mean, you never get to shoot them.

 

[Martin Schou]

I suspect a reason that some people get so upset about open vs non-open for PowerPlay, is that they have this idea that PowerPlay is a war game - and it's not. It's politics combined with state sponsored terrorism.

 

[Fendalton]

I've tried explaining this to people, where solo is comparable to playing a racing game as a 'ghost' and you cannot be pushed off the track or have to overtake people or worry about someone running into you or blocking overtaking, you can just hug the apex for every corner to post the fastest lap possible.

Completely unfair and makes absolutely no sense for an online game with a background simulator.

 

[Arry]

I've tried explaining this to people, where solo is comparable to playing a racing game as a 'ghost' and you cannot be pushed off the track or have to overtake people or worry about someone running into you or blocking overtaking, you can just hug the apex for every corner to post the fastest lap possible.

Completely unfair and makes absolutely no sense for an online game with a background simulator.

You are completely ignoring NPCs. Without power play in solo, I would have 80 to 90% less NPC contact. Play something like Grid, or the original TOCAs and you can't just hug the corners, as you put it.

 

[Darth Ender]

no.. they get upset because solo/private allows complete anonymity without any kind of repercussion and without any cost/handicap. In open, your actions have the potential to be discovered, even countered or terminated, for no additional gain/benefit.

Which serves role playing a multi-player cooperative and combative game and which serves as a means to subvert that community via the mechanics allowed by FD that exist external to the in-game rules and gameplay?

It doesn't matter though. FD is shoving their fingers in their ears and pretending like they dont understand that the modes of gameplay are mutually exclusive to building a solid deep and connected multiplayer game mechanic like powerplay. As can be seen by the fact that it's 40 weeks in and the discussion hasn't changed since week 5 when everyone realized that nearly all the prize items were crap and they'd have to actually build their own pretend reasons why one power was worth backing over another. Reddit is basically 80% of powerplay's gameplay. If FD doesn't see a problem in that then they dont really have an interest in completing powerplay or caring about fixing its core issues.

The game should be played in the game, not on a third party forum site. These threads dont matter though. They're busy doing whatever it is they're currently doing and no amount of rabble rabble is going to change it. If it hasn't been done in 40 weeks, it's doubtful it will or even can be done.

 

[Arry]

no.. they get upset because solo/private allows complete anonymity without any kind of repercussion and without any cost/handicap. In open, your actions have the potential to be discovered, even countered or terminated, for no additional gain/benefit.

Which serves role playing a multi-player cooperative and combative game and which serves as a means to subvert that community via the mechanics allowed by FD that exist external to the in-game rules and gameplay?

It doesn't matter though. FD is shoving their fingers in their ears and pretending like they dont understand that the modes of gameplay are mutually exclusive to building a solid deep and connected multiplayer game mechanic like powerplay. As can be seen by the fact that it's 40 weeks in and the discussion hasn't changed since week 5 when everyone realized that nearly all the prize items were crap and they'd have to actually build their own pretend reasons why one power was worth backing over another. Reddit is basically 80% of powerplay's gameplay. If FD doesn't see a problem in that then they dont really have an interest in completing powerplay or caring about fixing its core issues.

The game should be played in the game, not on a third party forum site. These threads dont matter though. They're busy doing whatever it is they're currently doing and no amount of rabble rabble is going to change it. If it hasn't been done in 40 weeks, it's doubtful it will or even can be done.

+1 Not for all of it, but a chunk is worth it.

 

[Fendalton]

You are completely ignoring NPCs. Without power play in solo, I would have 80 to 90% less NPC contact. Play something like Grid, or the original TOCAs and you can't just hug the corners, as you put it.

NPC's don't try stop you undermining. Solo can have Power Play, but undermining and expansion efforts should be disabled, that's how we lost Peregrina, couldn't stop people trading in reports in Solo.

 

[xondk]

no.. they get upset because solo/private allows complete anonymity without any kind of repercussion and without any cost/handicap. In open, your actions have the potential to be discovered, even countered or terminated, for no additional gain/benefit.

Well my question is even if everything was in open and fully perfect matchmaking, how big a difference is that going to make? I've seen many games with pvp elements, but the actual changes happened because of PvE, and the fact that pvp didn't really make a dent was something some entirely pvp focused people were upset about. Seems the same problem here? but even in games where there's been no match making problems or possible other modes, PvP has had very little influence on the overall progress or lack of. As I wrote previously.
So how does the anonymity really 'help' those that use solo/private? because people can't try to hunt them down if they find them another time?
-If they are an enemy faction they can attack them regardless when they see them? (and should?)

So lets say it was changed so there only was open, and match making was perfect, what is the scenario you expect to happen?

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

NPC's don't try stop you undermining. Solo can have Power Play, but undermining and expansion efforts should be disabled, that's how we lost Peregrina, couldn't stop people trading in reports in Solo.

Big shipped NPC's interdicting you is definitely an attempt to stop you from doing so when you are in their territory? yes I am aware of that difficulty will vary, but that doesn't mean they aren't trying to stop you?

 

[Captain Willard]

NPC's don't try stop you undermining. Solo can have Power Play, but undermining and expansion efforts should be disabled, that's how we lost Peregrina, couldn't stop people trading in reports in Solo.

I guess that wing of npc's that had me down to 9% hull before I escaped for passing thru their territory today were just messing with my head. Also it must be tough to have a member in every open instance, to see it caused in solo or private only.