Yes please, one with all of them would be nice as well. Love it. 
@Ziljan I like the idea of honking for Thargoids.
@Ziljan I like the idea of honking for Thargoids.
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RV Sonnenkreis - Decoding Universal Cartographics
- Thread starter Jackie Silver
- Start date
Yes please, one with all of them would be nice as well. Love it.
@Ziljan I like the idea of honking for Thargoids.
There you go. It's still much more sparsely populated than I was expecting, though!
Who's scruffy looking?!
Thanks Alot.
It looks like the phonemes come with a set length in sectors attached to them. Looking at the map I saw one instance where BL led to GL and another where CRY led to GL. When I filled in the sectors in between, one set goes:
BLAICHEAE *BLANK* *BLANK* *BLANK* *BLANK* *BLANK* GLAITU
and the other goes:
BLUDGUIA *BLANK* CRYATH *BLANK* *BLANK* CRYAFT GLUFOA
So the CRY phoneme lasts for at most five sectors in the sequence. This is going to make things trickier if we need to know all the lengths too.
It is surprisingly sparse, just goes to show...
(edited to add) I'll merge these with my own sector maps and start filling in more gaps to hunt the sequence. It's gonna need some ploughing through the galmap though!
(edited again) I wasn't sure whether the one word names which begin with consonants and the one word names which begin with vowels are in the same sequence, but looks like they are, cf. EA sectors next to the ones listed above.
(edited again again) Taking a break for a bit, my eyes are starting to get worn out.
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That's interesting if so, will definitely make things more challenging (but at the same time, at least remotely predictable!)
Also, excellent choices of example... If you're correct, that might give some insight into how it deals with different lists: unlike with class 2, the lists are "paused" in between. "eae" is immediately followed by "u" in the suffixes list, and "uia" and "oa" are the same.
I have noticed a little checkerboarding along the way... If I'm correct, then the "Bludg-" start would have "Bluf-" before it, and "Gluf-" should have "Gludg-" after it. (Having just checked your last sectors XLS, it appears that at least on the last count I'm correct!)
Right, I'm feeling much better about this now... It might once again be a tricky mountain to climb, but at least now I can start to see some of said mountain.
Doh.
Ok, take two, this is the combined map, and if I had a brain I wouldn't have imported it with spaces as dividers. I will tidy it tomorrow.
For now I will look at the -1 level to see what happens when things reach the end of the line.
(for reference, I'm using the corner C systems to map - go to SECTORNAME AA-A C, move slightly left, note the name as NEWSECTORNAME, move slightly down, note the name, go to NEWSECTORNAME AA-A C, repeat ad tedium.
The others on the south line are FB-A C (bottom right), QW-F C (upper left), VX-F C (upper right), they usually go straight to the corner but sometimes there are other C sectors in the way until you get to the corner ones. Not suitable for use right in the Core! )
Ok, take two, this is the combined map, and if I had a brain I wouldn't have imported it with spaces as dividers.
I will tidy it tomorrow.For now I will look at the -1 level to see what happens when things reach the end of the line.
(for reference, I'm using the corner C systems to map - go to SECTORNAME AA-A C, move slightly left, note the name as NEWSECTORNAME, move slightly down, note the name, go to NEWSECTORNAME AA-A C, repeat ad tedium.
The others on the south line are FB-A C (bottom right), QW-F C (upper left), VX-F C (upper right), they usually go straight to the corner but sometimes there are other C sectors in the way until you get to the corner ones. Not suitable for use right in the Core! )
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Another of tonight's discoveries... Looks like my two consonant-y suffix lists (s2 and s3) are in fact one long list...
HYPINKS --> HYPUAE AID --> HYPISC
HYPINKS --> HYPUAE AID --> HYPISC
If we include unpopulated sectors...
Very conservative estimate (assuming only the 6 vertical slices that are populated), somewhere around 36000.
Medium estimate (using the bounds that the Galaxy Map lets you scroll to), just under 100k.
If we use the full bounds of the galaxy as defined by Frontier (64 vertical slices), just under 400k.
However, at the moment I don't think we know for sure whether the current naming scheme is designed to traverse that full distance. My suspicion right now is that it goes a bit further up/down than we can see from the populated stars, but I don't think I see 64 sectors' worth at the moment.
If we only count sectors with stars in... I'd estimate somewhere between 10k and 15k, I suppose.
Looking at the first phonemes from the 0 and -1 planes, I think there's a linear, vaguely alphabetic progression and that it runs:
"west to east"
then
"down to up"
then
"north to south"
I can see a couple of sectors which appear to be singletons, which might be worth a closer investigation - one definite one on the 0 plane, TZAIWNS and one potential one on the -1 plane, PYTHAICS. I'm tempted to fly to one of those on the off-chance that they've perhaps been excepted from the usual progression because there's something interesting there... ...but probably not, so I'll look for more similar ones.
In any case, because the progression looks to be a very long list (it only repeats itself once) and the only levels we can easily get it for are the 0 and -1 planes, it's going to be difficult to get the whole thing. We might be able to get it in other ways though.
I'm wondering whether there's some trigger in the way the lists are combined which makes the decision as to what format it uses - if the sector names are all four part codes, and the first choice for the name would be "wrong" when they're put together (like too many consonants or vowels in a row or something) then it uses the second choice for the name (the chequerboard two parter) instead?
My back of envelope guess for the number of star-populated sectors would be about the same, around 10,000 - the star-containing radius of the galaxy on the two levels near the plane is about 30 sectors, so 2 * pi * 30**2, but I'm less sure what the star-containing radius is for the four higher and lower planes - could extend nearly as far.
"west to east"
then
"down to up"
then
"north to south"
I can see a couple of sectors which appear to be singletons, which might be worth a closer investigation - one definite one on the 0 plane, TZAIWNS and one potential one on the -1 plane, PYTHAICS. I'm tempted to fly to one of those on the off-chance that they've perhaps been excepted from the usual progression because there's something interesting there... ...but probably not, so I'll look for more similar ones.
In any case, because the progression looks to be a very long list (it only repeats itself once) and the only levels we can easily get it for are the 0 and -1 planes, it's going to be difficult to get the whole thing. We might be able to get it in other ways though.
I'm wondering whether there's some trigger in the way the lists are combined which makes the decision as to what format it uses - if the sector names are all four part codes, and the first choice for the name would be "wrong" when they're put together (like too many consonants or vowels in a row or something) then it uses the second choice for the name (the chequerboard two parter) instead?
My back of envelope guess for the number of star-populated sectors would be about the same, around 10,000 - the star-containing radius of the galaxy on the two levels near the plane is about 30 sectors, so 2 * pi * 30**2, but I'm less sure what the star-containing radius is for the four higher and lower planes - could extend nearly as far.
I found similar, but I'd been assuming it was south-to-north. I'll have to have another look!
My thinking was that it repeated quite a few times... There were several ones starting with Lyr and Lys relatively close to each other (over the course of about three or four Z slices if I remember correctly), I figured it was going over the list relatively often.
That's my current focus as well - how it chooses what to do next when it (somehow) decides that it needs to change things up.
I considered the too-many-vowels case before and didn't find any pattern, but that was quite early on in my investigations so I might have been too hasty.
I was wrong again, I think, got confused. Contain your surprise, dear audience.
On the +1 plane, there's a sector EAEZAU. I checked and the ones before it are EAEZI and EAEZAO. I'm at a slight loss here as it doesn't appear to fit the usual four-phoneme pattern. Could be the equivalent of a system name AB-C D0 where the other number is silent, unlike the usual AB-C D1-2
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I was wrong again, I think, got confused. Contain your surprise, dear audience.
On the +1 plane, there's a sector EAEZAU. I checked and the ones before it are EAEZI and EAEZAO. I'm at a slight loss here as it doesn't appear to fit the usual four-phoneme pattern. Could be the equivalent of a system name AB-C D0 where the other number is silent, unlike the usual AB-C D1-2
Yeah, those are the "class 1b" sectors from my original post, the ones with three phonemes. If they get to the end of their suffix list, they append an infix in their third slot and start a normal four-phoneme run.
No idea how it behaves for names starting with vowels; for consonants, it appears to append a "d" and start from the "ue" suffix. Hard mode engaged: best I can tell, neither of those are at the start of their respective lists.
e.g. Swoiwns --> Swoilz --> Prua Dryoae --> Swoiphs --> Prua Dryou --> Swoidai
e.g. Dryeae Aub --> Flyaulz --> Dryaea Free --> Dryu Aub --> Dryaea Aub --> Flyaudai
e.g. Floawns --> ??? --> Floanth --> ??? --> Floadue
So it appears to go "wns", "lz", "nth", "phs", "d"+"ue", "d"+"ai", ...
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The app based on Jackie's sector lookup code is coming along. Now with autocomplete, input validation, and nearby zone lookup
I meant to say before, the nearby zones feature sounds useful. You could probably work that up into a navigation mode that would give you a route using only systems of a particular mass code.
No idea how it behaves for names starting with vowels; for consonants, it appears to append a "d" and start from the "ue" suffix. Hard mode engaged: best I can tell, neither of those are at the start of their respective lists.
So it appears to go "wns", "lz", "nth", "phs", "d"+"ue", "d"+"ai", ...
I wonder if that (the starting from d ue ) could be dependent on the plane, or other position?
I think I've managed to track the sequence ST, N, O, NY from the -1 plane to the 0 plane - with a bit more work should be able to get the exact boundaries.
I'll upload my merged maps at the end of this surveying session.
Here's the merged maps.
While it's broken over several groups, I followed:
-1 plane, line 50: ST,N
0 plane, line 50: NY,LYR
and from elsewhere we can see:
0 plane, line 45: N,O
-1 plane, line 55: O,NY
I think that strongly implies an unseen O somewhere between the observed east end of line 50 on the -1 plane and the observed start end of line 50 on the 0 plane - by getting the lengths of the N, O, NY groups we'll be able to work out where the boundaries lie I think.
(edited) Alot, I'm behind you again - I see (and I think you said) that you have the full sequence of first phonemes in the right order already in your pgdata.
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Oh, that sounds like significantly better progress than I've managed so far. I await the results impatiently
As for the d/ue, it may well be dependent on anything/everything; I've only observed it in four cases so far, and I think all of those might have been at Y=0.
No worries at all - it's very nice to have a second opinion. I'm still not 100% confident on some of them
Assuming we're right and it goes N -> O -> NY, then as you say we need to work out how long those are in order to try and actually get them to wrap from one stack to the next.
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I think I've got some of them for definite;
TZ - length 1
SHR - length 11
MYR - length 4
LYS - length 10
I've got provisional minimum lengths for the rest but will need to follow them along on the galaxy map to continue to narrow them down. Quite a lot of them are short - will post the list when I finish going through them. I think a lot of them may be of length 36 as well which would be an appropriately round number. Once we start getting more of them it will be possible to use the ones we've got to fix the lengths of others so it should get easier and easier.
TZ - length 1
SHR - length 11
MYR - length 4
LYS - length 10
I've got provisional minimum lengths for the rest but will need to follow them along on the galaxy map to continue to narrow them down. Quite a lot of them are short - will post the list when I finish going through them. I think a lot of them may be of length 36 as well which would be an appropriately round number. Once we start getting more of them it will be possible to use the ones we've got to fix the lengths of others so it should get easier and easier.
Nice work
That 36 could be interesting, as it's one longer than the lengths of the suffix lists for class 2 (35).
I'd been wondering why for some reason there are "odd ones out" in some cases... For example (this is from memory so might not be 100% correct)...
... --> Spooraae --> Spooreau --> Joothee --> Jooroe --> Joorio --> ...
There, phonemes 1 and 3 jump one sector before the suffix rolls back to the start of the list (ee --> oe).
Perhaps the length of the runs is relevant to that, resulting in little oddities like this...
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I think your 36 might be a 35... If you check sectors_0plus, row 26:
At the left end we have Glaitu, with 5 unknowns to the left, and then Blaicheae. At the right end we have Glaicheae followed by Braitu. That Gl run, of what we can see, is 35 long.
In between Bl and Gl should be Cry, which elsewhere you identified as being 5 long. That makes up those five unknowns, meaning the run actually is 35 long.
That does also fit very cleanly - for whatever reason the run starts at -tu and ends at -cheae. That is the case for Gl, looks like it may be the case for Bl before it, and could also be the case for Br after it.
That doesn't help us with all the crazy edge cases though.
Edit: I am still completely stumped on how continuations between stacks work (if they happen at all). It doesn't seem to cleanly carry the pattern on, but it also doesn't always seem to start a fresh pattern at the start of the new stack - although it sometimes does, so there's a chance there are just a lot more custom lengths we haven't nailed down yet.
At the left end we have Glaitu, with 5 unknowns to the left, and then Blaicheae. At the right end we have Glaicheae followed by Braitu. That Gl run, of what we can see, is 35 long.
In between Bl and Gl should be Cry, which elsewhere you identified as being 5 long. That makes up those five unknowns, meaning the run actually is 35 long.
That does also fit very cleanly - for whatever reason the run starts at -tu and ends at -cheae. That is the case for Gl, looks like it may be the case for Bl before it, and could also be the case for Br after it.
That doesn't help us with all the crazy edge cases though.
Edit: I am still completely stumped on how continuations between stacks work (if they happen at all). It doesn't seem to cleanly carry the pattern on, but it also doesn't always seem to start a fresh pattern at the start of the new stack - although it sometimes does, so there's a chance there are just a lot more custom lengths we haven't nailed down yet.
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