Switched from Star Citizen to Elite (and reasons why)

aiiiiit bains ... welcome. :)

i had similar reasons for coming here from SC months ago. SC will get there and be good but it will be bumpy and twisty road i think with many delays.

hoping to see lots more refugees from SC in the near future make their way here especially from the US side of the pond.
 
aiiiiit bains ... welcome. :)

i had similar reasons for coming here from SC months ago. SC will get there and be good but it will be bumpy and twisty road i think with many delays.

hoping to see lots more refugees from SC in the near future make their way here especially from the US side of the pond.

Im here from SC also...ED is the most fuctional alpha ive seen in a while...im all for SC and hope it follows thru with 1/2 of what Roberts claims but they are sooooo slow...where as ED is on the ball and delivers...its a no brainer...GO ED! :D
 
Hi Bains,

I fully supported SC at the start and was in there with my wallet open meaning I pledged right before the hype kicked off. In fact I ignored the ED announcements at the time because they - in my view - could not compare with all the tech demos that Chris Roberts was showing at the time [at this point glance at my signature to view my grovelling apology to a certain Mr D Braben]. Even the talk about pushing things back did not dampen my enthusiasm but steadily over time I found myself looking at the ED website. I've not logged or checked SC for a few months but I have been drooling over ED more and more until I finally bought in last week. I've been raving about it since I'm not even in the Alpha. In fact even if SC fails to ever materialise or live up to the hype I'm not concerned about losing my money because there is Elite.

I think SC was incredibly ambitious when first announced and I wish it success but my heart is back with Elite and I am remembering childhood delight from the mid 80's. I've not been this excited about a game for years.

And, in a patriotic way, I feel the approach of David Braben and Frontier has been incredibly British: yes, the Americans may have s****y vids at launch and haved raised gazillions of dollars but the Brits (and yes, the Canadian side too!! although I don't know what, if any, involvement they have had with ED) have been quietly developing solid gameplay while SC has been churning out videos, lore, and ships sales. That typically understated Britishness has been a delight to see. And yes I know Chris Roberts is from Manchester but he's very US in his approach these days. I hasten to add that I am comparing approaches here and not having a go at the US!

So welcome Bains. As a relative newcomer myself I understand your excitement. :D
 
Welcome Bains, nice introduction!

I have to agree to what you said. Although in my case, aside of the bumpy kickstarter campaign, my money was always on ED. I have backed SC too, but I firmly remembered having played Frontier and First Encounters (I was too young for the original) for days, while Wing Commander bored me after a few missions. It was always the ultimate open-endedness and realism that got me going. And this approach is, in my opinion, the best to create a game that "works", that feels right in every way when you're actually playing it. The redesigns of several ships in SC says so much about this... and I'm very confident nothing like this will happen in ED. :)
 
EDIT: rumours of a delay have been officially quashed, thanks Jenner for the update.

Nope, take a look at this. It seems like Ben jumped the gun, the development estimates in the Gamestar article were coming directly from the horses mouth.

I have personally backed both projects, since I have lost a good chunk of my childhood playing both DB and CR games. I expect to get the ultimate elite game from Braben, and the ultimate WC/Privateer game for CR. Nothing more, nothing less. :D


Commander Bains, welcome to the forums. Stay well and happy posting...o7
 
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Nope, take a look at this. It seems like Ben jumped the gun, the development estimates in the Gamestar article were coming directly from the horses mouth.

Wow. Seriously, what the heck is going on over there?
I'm following the development of Space Engineers by a small team of indie devs, and those guys are incredibly productive, releasing major new features every week. And they appear to be way more professional than RSI at this point.
 
Greetings Commander!
Good to see you've left the dark side ;) LOL

If you get chance why not stop by to say hi and watch our community live stream? It would be great to hear your thoughts on the two games.
 
Although there is lots of discussion that is purely centred around Star Citizen, there is still enough about Elite for the thread to remain un-merged with the main Star Citizen thread for now. However the scope of this thread has moved quite a bit from being an introduction thread so I will move it into the general games area for now, but please stay on topic folks or I will merge it.
 

Bains

Banned
For me this continues to not be about SC but the considered reasons why I switched to ED from SC, added to which it appears others are also sharing their reasons for doing the same.

For example another key point for me came to light when bringing myself up to speed on all the ED newsletters and development diaries. It is a point that led me to immediately liquidate SC stock and instead use the funds to buy into the ED Premium Beta.

Before I go on I just want to share that reading through the ED material and the clarity it offered felt like a catharsis after being mired in never ending vagaries of SC, not to mention the zealot-overwatch of the Branch Davidian-like cult of Roberts that has developed and taken to aggressively trolling even the most reasonable attempts at raising questions out of the tiny comfort zone of high fidelity ships.

If I hear one more fanatical "I trust in Chris Roberts!" fired back as an answer to a perfectly reasonable question...

Anyway, the point in question related to the topic of death and consequence.

If I may explain: For the first few months all SC comms was limited to ships leading to a huge clamor for answers to pressing questions relating to the rest of the game. This was particular true for those interested in the open world multiplayer experience that had been promised since the start, particular those who wanted to group up in clans. How would PvP and death work for example?

The debate raged on, and this was particularly heated because the crowd was incredibly fragmented, tied together as they are by only the common denominators of hype, nostalgia and the promise of super high fidelity ships.

Furthermore, given it soon became obvious that there was (incredibly) a complete vacuum of vision from SC on this question, the debate became even more heated as the different profiles of gamers, sensing the SC guys where listening although in no way participating, desperately sought to influence decision making towards a game that suited their own preference.

The result was massive acrimony. Gamers coming from theme park MMOs, many of whom who weren’t even born when computer games ended with a “game over screen”, indeed may even throw a rage fit resulting in a smashed screen if presented with one, went toe to toe on the forums with those they accused of being greifers.

The debate went public as game journo friends/backers on both sides leveraged their blogs to posted thinly veiled attempts at influencing the debate across the web.

But of course the various groups of gamers with their entrenched views were not the real issue. The manifest real issue as touched upon above was that SC remarkably had no answer, it was not something they had anything even approaching a clear vision on, exacerbated by the fact they hoped it would just go away and allow them to continue their first preoccupation - moving ships, which of course required everyone to just get along and buy one, (better still two or three and never mind the universe available to fly said ships around in). After months however even the most ostrich-like among them realised they had to step in and say something, shock horror perhaps even clarify on which side of the fence they stood.

By this point of course their scramble for an answer would not be easy given they were and remain in direct violation of the universally accepted natural law, coined by Lyndgate and Linclon, of “…you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.

As such it would require nothing short of the Wisdom of Solomon to address. And what was their answer pray tell?. It was of course one of the greatest video game fudges of all time: The infamous PvP sliders solution: A Trademark SC mechanism for simply removing all transparency for how they would actually handle this question, allowing them to continue to sell ships to all profiles, and ultimately back-load to a time much later the nuclear detonation of nerd rage that will surely come when this half measure is revealed as such.

Come to Elite Dangerous however, and how they have addressed this very same question? In comparison, I look at the VERY FIRST Elite Newsletter #1, let me repeat this for the benefit of any members of the Cult Roberts who may be reading, THE VERY FIRST NEWSLETTER, and I read:

“Over the past two weeks the Design Decisions Forum has been busy discussing the first two topics. The first topic, concerning how death and related consequences should be handled in the game.”

How refreshing. Also, it turns out the world is not mad! We were not mad! This was an important question! It should have been handled directly and early! And someone else thinks it is fair to let the backers know where the developers stand on this point, relating as it does to the very nature of the kind of game you are making.

And indeed I see the answer you, the backers and ED team, have arrived at takes the form of a very clear set of rules, public and available for anyone to read, and indeed debate. ED Team I salute you for being a team with a clear vision that goes beyond ship polygon counts and an understanding of what it will take to make a truly great multiplayer space faring game.

All that remained was to 1) liquidated my constellation and instead used the money to buy into the Premium Beta.
2) Scratch my head and wonder why the hell it took me so long to figure this out.
 
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Interesting points as always Bains. ED's discussion about death consequences was actually different to the discussion about PvP though - at the time the death penalty proposal was going through the DDF, we all thought the grouping concept had solved the PvP problem. But by the time the groups proposal came round, it had become clear it wasn't enough.

It sounds like Frontier had the opposite problem to CIG - they had a very clear vision for what they wanted to achieve with PvP, but it became clear it was the wrong one. Having grown out of Cambridge university, Frontier are great believers in debate. So they launched the tri poll - three parallel discussions on the issue in different forums (one of which isn't publicly available, sorry). By the time of The Tri-Poll Ends two and a half weeks later, much-loved lead designer Sandro Sammarco was only able to make fairly broad comments about the type of game they wanted to create. Looking back, I don't think it really settled anything (the question still pops up to this day), but it let everyone feel that their voice had been heard, that they had some idea what to expect from the game, and that they had some closure on the issue.
 

Bains

Banned
Interesting points as always Bains. ED's discussion about death consequences was actually different to the discussion about PvP though - at the time the death penalty proposal was going through the DDF, we all thought the grouping concept had solved the PvP problem. But by the time the groups proposal came round, it had become clear it wasn't enough.

It sounds like Frontier had the opposite problem to CIG - they had a very clear vision for what they wanted to achieve with PvP, but it became clear it was the wrong one. Having grown out of Cambridge university, Frontier are great believers in debate. So they launched the tri poll - three parallel discussions on the issue in different forums (one of which isn't publicly available, sorry). By the time of The Tri-Poll Ends two and a half weeks later, much-loved lead designer Sandro Sammarco was only able to make fairly broad comments about the type of game they wanted to create. Looking back, I don't think it really settled anything (the question still pops up to this day), but it let everyone feel that their voice had been heard, that they had some idea what to expect from the game, and that they had some closure on the issue.

That article I refer to, It still allows me to infer much more about these topics that all the output from SC.

And my real point is not that EDs solution is perfect or complete or even to my taste, but simply as you confirm their intent was to try to address it as a priority, rather than first fail to recognise it was important, then avoid it, then side step it.

And I suspect that given the multiplayer beta is upon us, if they havent already, ED will have to resolve this decisively very soon, rather than in years, or indeed never by virtue of employing a mechanism that simply makes their real solution invisible for marketing reasons.
 
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Welcome Bains :)!

I've backed both, but am only really interested in Squadron 42 for SC... I've pledged about 50 times as much for ED as SC. No one does procedural generation better than David Braben, and I have far more confidence in this project than SC.
 

Bains

Banned
Welcome Bains :)!

I've backed both, but am only really interested in Squadron 42 for SC... I've pledged about 50 times as much for ED as SC. No one does procedural generation better than David Braben, and I have far more confidence in this project than SC.

This is why you're smarter than me.

Had I only been interested in the one player game I'd have little cause for complaint (actually perhaps I would have after seeing the horrible first take on the way the ships moved in that pax video). Problem is I bought into the claims they were also going to make the multiplayer space faring game we all wanted to play.

Foolish really, when I look back on it. million polygon ships, flying around in maps with a scale on par with battlefield 3 maps, and world of tanks numbers (at best), almost certainly in third person view, probably with a preference for gamepad, or worse, like war thunder, a huge advantage for those using a mouse thanks to point and kill mouse aiming versus difficult joystick aiming, and all in a teeny tiny universe of systems, and of course spending hundreds of dollars for this privileged. What the hell was I thinking!?!

Ah I remember now. I succumbed to the never ending omissions, misdirection, obscure statements of future intent, and of course the mighty hype, lets not forget self delusion fueled by the legions of game journos jumping on the SC band wagon*, all put together collectively led me to believe that SC the multiplayer game would be anything but what I have just outlined above. You live and learn I guess.

You know, I actually have a huge amount of friends and contacts across multiple guilds still heavily invested in SC the mutiplayer game, or the PU as they call it (DOA as I suspect it will be one day be called). I actually feel bad knowing that sooner or later they too will realise they're passengers on the video game equivalent of the Titanic. Good news for them of course is that a rescue ship in the form of ED does exist.

Safe to say, my "I do not trust Chris Roberts" cobra bumper stickers are on order, and this thread for me has moved beyond just sharing my thoughts on the switch but also general catharsis/SC therapy.

*I notice even Angry Joe is beginning to sweat over SC https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZOpaMmICCc
I further notice that he foolishly states "if anyone is going to deliver on the space genre its Chris Roberts", guess he's never heard of Braben. He also states all the final elements will be completed in 2015. No doubt he's since discovered the latest leaks mean he's been unwittingly announcing a complete falsehood. Just goes to show you what these game journos know. I look forward to welcoming him on this thread in due course.
 
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(actually perhaps I would have after seeing the horrible first take on the way the ships moved in that pax video)

I, too, am a transfuge from SC, and the current state of ship movement was the tipping point for me.

It also illustrates your point about the lack of consistent vision: on the SC forums, Chris Roberts hinted a long time ago that pitch & roll would be favored over pitch & yaw in the final game, since this is the only way to avoid the "FPS in space" syndrome, and the only way to establish a fair ground between all input devices (pitch & yaw has a mouse bias). But that's not what we saw in the PAX video... It had a strong "turrets in space" feeling.

I love the way CIG is constantly communicating with their backers, and their efforts to build an active community. But I'm under the impression that they also listen way to much. Though it's important to take feedback into account, it's also crucial to remember that not all gamers are game designers.
 

Bains

Banned
I, too, am a transfuge from SC, and the current state of ship movement was the tipping point for me.

It also illustrates your point about the lack of consistent vision: on the SC forums, Chris Roberts hinted a long time ago that pitch & roll would be favored over pitch & yaw in the final game, since this is the only way to avoid the "FPS in space" syndrome, and the only way to establish a fair ground between all input devices (pitch & yaw has a mouse bias). But that's not what we saw in the PAX video... It had a strong "turrets in space" feeling.

I love the way CIG is constantly communicating with their backers, and their efforts to build an active community. But I'm under the impression that they also listen way to much. Though it's important to take feedback into account, it's also crucial to remember that not all gamers are game designers.

Yes. I agree. And fundamentally for me it boils down to "who are you making this for?"

In my opinion any creative, whether that's a film director or a game maker, whatever, who believes they can intentionally make something for everybody will deliver a mess that will leave no one happy. After considering your options/gauging opinion you must choose who your core audience is, whether that's yourself and people who share your tastes or a particular profile, make it for them with laser focus and be honest enough to communicate this to all and sundry, especially when you have the commercial freedom to do so, as they always have. This was one of the key original reasons why they cited going self funding and not having to cow tow to a publisher. Yet for me they have done neither in favor of taking everbody's money no different to the publishers they held up as examples of everything they didnt want to do.
 
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