The fallacy of how PvP can protect your system from being undermined.

[Boomer Kay]

This is not a discussion about game mode. While non-open game modes are relevant, I feel you've missed the point.

As per the OP's hypothetical, even if all we had was Open mode, countering an attack on your player faction requires PvE action. You cannot hope to maintain control of a system under attack, even exclusively in Open, by PvP methods alone.

That is the point of the thread.

The only caveat I can conceive of regarding this is that so long as the system being defended is not anarchy or lawless, you can assume the attackers will be wanted (If their strategy is to undermine by destroying your factions NPC ships, or by some other means which will earn them wanted status). In that case, destroying them and turning in the bounty will have a positive effect on countering their undermining.

I have no idea if the two actions will be equal in magnitude of their effect on the BGS, of course.

There is a different dimension to this.
I got ED for the solo mode. I stick with solo regardless of FDs measures to promote open, like the graphics card competition or planned bonuses for open PP.

If someone is a self proclaimed open and PvP player and then switches to solo -against his own word and conviction- to attack another very open and somewhat high profile opponent's assets, that is rather cheesy, lame, dishonorable .. however you like to call it.
They deprive other combat PvP players of their chance to actually have combat PvP and they deprive themselves of the opportunity to improve.
You don't get better at computer games by cheesing.

 

[the100thmonkey]

I meet up with Commanders in open in SC all the time. Usually we end up winging up and then doing whatever it is we're going to do. I met some Commanders a few days ago in SC. We went down to a planet and drove around for hours, just talking and jumping over each other in SRVs. That sort of thing happens far more frequently than death and robbery. With more people in open, and not hiding away in some dark corner, there would be even more opportunity for interactions. Also, winging up with like minded commanders usually has the benefit of discouraging attack.

So did you get a number or was a just a casual thing?

 

[MadMikesch]

It's enough that the underminer has a chance to meet the protectors in open. When he met them 1 or two times with his cutter and he has lost the ship he will not continue to undermine the system.
So all argues in the first post are ...
With a open only BGS it would be possible, even for small player-groups, to protect a system from undermining.
With BGS and Solo/Group like it is implemented now we will not invest 5 minutes to protect our System.

MadMikesch [RoA]

p.s.: Having minor player-factions that can be undermined in solo- or group-mode is a ridicolous design-fault. Even powerplay makes only sense in open.

 

[KG_Jedi]

Disagree with OP.

Defending system cannot be 100% guarantee that nobody gets past, BUT it will reduce amount of enemy faction players coming greatly.

First of all, defending side can use high-speed ships too, like Cobra/Clipper with missiles/torps to intercept and finish off escaping ships.

Secondly, killing enemy player few times will often just wipe off their urge to visit this system until end of PP cycle.

Instances could be a problem, agree on this tho. However it could be up to FD to tweak it along with PP and modes.

You say that anyone who gets interdicted can just high wake. True, but if PP would work only in Open, they will be afraid to arrive in that system again, since there is no Solo to get bast blockade harmlessly.

And finally, not all players know such tricks of game as high wake/power management/silent run... Out of 10 PP players i met, 6 didnt knew how to escape interdictions or use their ships at max effectivness. So, defending system in "No-PP-in-Solo" would be effective. Still better than seeing noone in Open and seeing your faction system being undermined by those who you can't see and stop.

 

[Mohrgan]

It's enough that the underminer has a chance to meet the protectors in open. When he met them 1 or two times with his cutter and he has lost the ship he will not continue to undermine the system.
So all argues in the first post are ...

MadMikesch [RoA]

p.s.: Having minor player-factions that can be undermined in solo- or group-mode is a ridicolous design-fault. Even powerplay makes only sense in open.

Except when the minor faction defends itself by enlisting players from across all play styles to do their thing. Instead of getting completely distracted by PvP, gain some players that can and would like to work the BGS for you. There is no reason not to respect and encourage all types of players to join a player faction.

To contact Adle's Armada:
Adlesarmada.com
http://inara.cz/wing/336
adlesarmada.teamspeak3.com / 3352

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I gave you some rep for a fun comment but I am compelled to say that those people actually started off in solo / group - they didn't just go there for the duration of the exercise.

ironically for me personally it was the exact opposite, but it made no difference at all. I rarely play in open as it is not a mode which interests me, but to prove a point, I did any and all my "work" against SDC in open. Whilst there I saw many friendly CMDRs. SDC faction got stomped on in all 3 modes, and people making out it was only because of solo is an out and out lie.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Just remember kids, if the Open Bonus works in PP, FDev will consider it for the BGS next.

Nim

this is my concern too, altho Sandro absolutely stated this is not the case

 

[MadMikesch]

Except when the minor faction defends itself by enlisting players from across all play styles to do their thing. Instead of getting completely distracted by PvP, gain some players that can and would like to work the BGS for you. There is no reason not to respect and encourage all types of players to join a player faction.

To contact Adle's Armada:
Adlesarmada.com
http://inara.cz/wing/336
adlesarmada.teamspeak3.com / 3352

When let's say a group of 50 players go to Eravate in solo- or group-mode and work intense against AA-faction, even a big group like yours has no chance to protect yourself.

Btw. we have some members that do PvE and support our minor-faction.

 

[iFred]

Pointless discussion as long as we have caps on instances. I would like to see seperate galaxies, but I think it´s not possible for FDEV to change a basic-design decision in a short period of time without putting other, way more important features aside.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

With more people in open, and not hiding away in some dark corner, there would be even more opportunity for interactions. .

again such mental comprehension issues boggle me.
look at it like this...... I COULD go to a packed night club in a really rough area, stuffed full of people i do not know and know that there is only a very small chance I will get robbed or knifed......
lots of people do this and have a great time...... Which is kind of my analogy of the open that some here want.

OR
I could stay at home with a small number of my hand picked friends, listen to music of my own choice and drink my own beer with zero chance of getting robbed or mugged... which is my analogy of a private group.

Neither way is a WRONG way to spend my Saturday evening, and if me not being in the night club means 1 less meat suit for others to interact with then that really is not my problem. By spending my time purely with friends I am not hiding at all. I am just being selective on who i spend time with

 

[MadMikesch]

again such mental comprehension issues boggle me.
look at it like this...... I COULD go to a packed night club in a really rough area, stuffed full of people i do not know and know that there is only a very small chance I will get robbed or knifed......
lots of people do this and have a great time...... Which is kind of my analogy of the open that some here want.

OR
I could stay at home with a small number of my hand picked friends, listen to music of my own choice and drink my own beer with zero chance of getting robbed or mugged... which is my analogy of a private group.

Neither way is a WRONG way to spend my Saturday evening, and if me not being in the night club means 1 less meat suit for others to interact with then that really is not my problem. By spending my time purely with friends I am not hiding at all. I am just being selective on who i spend time with

Your analogy is wrong because at home you can not drink out of the glasses of the people in the night-club and you can not puke all over the toilet in the nightclub. And vice versa of course

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Your analogy is wrong because at home you can not drink out of the glasses of the people in the night-club and you can not puke all over the toilet in the nightclub. And vice versa of course

well you can never make a perfect analogy...

 

[Falcon_D]

Again a lot of ifs.
If a player meets another player and looses an expensive ship.
If a player is playing at the same time as another's group of players.
If a player does sticks around and manages to defend his system while his other buddies are killing other players in another system so as to expand.
If there is a bonus playing in Open would more people actually want to play in Open? Or would they just start ignoring PP and the BGS. Seems there are a lot of assumptions here that people play in Group/Solo cause there is no benefit to playing in Open.

Personally, I feel that if FD wants to break the Open = Group = Solo mantra for PP, because they think that PvP would add some kind of benefit to PP. Then they might as well go all the way and do it right by breaking the single PP/BGS instance into Open/Group/Solo instances. And if FD wants to do that, then they might as well give a certain group of players what they've always wanted. Solo offline mode.

 

[Boomer Kay]

Pointless discussion as long as we have caps on instances. I would like to see seperate galaxies, but I think it´s not possible for FDEV to change a basic-design decision in a short period of time without putting other, way more important features aside.

Separate galaxies would solve exactly nothing about the open world open PvP design of the game. Turning off open is the only option to "fix" the design. PvPers meet in Arena (which is not "open world, open PvP") and that's it. Worked for Guild Wars. Story mode - PvP "Endgame" completely outside the "world".
Open world, open PvP is always a risky design, since there's always essential non-combat activities that dictate the pace of the combat activities. And sorry, but ED is really really cheap on that. THIS here is grind? I spent more time in EQ at camping a single Item or waiting until raids have gathered than I have complete played time in ED and I could afford one of the most expensive ships (or my little armada of special purpose ships, which I prefer).
Your clan/guild/group is running ouf ressources? You lost. The other clan/guild/group is better at "grinding" those ressources? You most likely gonna lose. You can delay that loss? If the others are good, not even that.
You do not need 200 top ace combat PvP pilots with such a system to overwhelm a small group of 20 players, you just need 200 players (that's the "open" part).

And it does not solve the millennia old human trait that some people do literally anything to win. Those guys switching to solo now might just use one of the known P2P "features" to avoid connecting with other players or one of the other known exploits. So the Dev has to start the old patchwar cycle - 1 exploit (not "bug", just exploitable feature) fixed, 2 others found. really adds to the content of the game if the devs are busy fixing stuff.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

It's enough that the underminer has a chance to meet the protectors in open. When he met them 1 or two times with his cutter and he has lost the ship he will not continue to undermine the system. …

Small inexpensive ships are good mission-runners. Trying to influence the BGS in a big, expensive ship is not the most effective method.
High influence missions are just that, high influence. The player who wants to influence a minor-faction only needs to manage to finish a few of those missions too have a big influence change.
While the player wanting to stop that player with PvP is wasting time waiting for the other player to show up in the system for a short time.

…
With a open only BGS it would be possible, even for small player-groups, to protect a system from undermining. …

I don't think that something like that is the intention of the developers. A small group of players should not be able to "protect" a system from a larger group of players doing the opposite.

A small group of players is able to "protect" a system against smaller or less dedicated groups of players or against random players unintentionally doing things that hurt the controlling minor-faction.

When let's say a group of 50 players go to Eravate in solo- or group-mode and work intense against AA-faction, even a big group like yours has no chance to protect yourself.
…

It doesn't matter if that player group is in open, solo or private mode. The only thing that matters is what those 50 players are doing that influences the AA-faction and what AA does to boost the influence of their supported minor-faction.

… If you can't see something you can't do anything about it ever.

Just do what everybody playing with the BGS does: keep an eye on the influence levels of all minor-factions in the system. If one minor-faction changes it's influence in some unexpected ways, then other players are doing something.
Then do the most effective thing that will help your minor-faction (hint: it's not cruising around in super cruise hoping to see somebody else).

If everyone had to be in open, then people could set up patrols and guard the system. …

24/7, in all possible instances and on PC and Xbox? That might result in a slow down. And to the content of the original posting. While you waste your time patrolling and grading "your" system others can do things that actually affect the BGS.
Patronin and guarding a system might sound like a lot of fun, but it's a very ineffective way to influence the BGS.
In the time you spend cruising in SC you could do missions for your minor-faction. That would actually have an effect on the BGS.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

p.s.: Having minor player-factions that can be undermined in solo- or group-mode is a ridicolous design-fault. Even powerplay makes only sense in open.

Why?
why is it bad that all modes can effect BGS? Why is having a game which is centred around PvP a good thing, and why is having one centred around multiplayer PvE actions around the BGS a bad thing?

Yes i agree IF the game was open only and somehow magically in 1 giant instance it would be possible for skilled PvP players to have more of an effect and to scare off other "less skilled" from playing in those systems.

But what I do not agree with, and what I have not seen a compelling reason for, is why is it a bad thing?.
PvP can be many things, it can be out and out aggression, or it can be a concerted effort in taking on missions against the ai.... Remember there are NO player factions in Elite dangerous, they are all ai factions.

 

[xondk]

as a fact, npc actions don't influence the backgroundsimultion. the only way npc can influence the bgs is by getting interdicted, robbed, shot at or killed by players. sad, but true.

You are of course correct, but this is a currently missing feature and doesn't change the concept that Elite is built around, and last I checked NPC's are intended to affect a dynamic galaxy at some point, it and my main argument about pvp still stands.

So yeah, main point was this is a game focused around the background simulation, making everyone equal in that aspect, everyone can fight through it, and even in games where PvP can have more influence, the OP still holds true.

 

[MadMikesch]

Why?
why is it bad that all modes can effect BGS? Why is having a game which is centred around PvP a good thing, and why is having one centred around multiplayer PvE actions around the BGS a bad thing?

Yes i agree IF the game was open only and somehow magically in 1 giant instance it would be possible for skilled PvP players to have more of an effect and to scare off other "less skilled" from playing in those systems.

But what I do not agree with, and what I have not seen a compelling reason for, is why is it a bad thing?.
PvP can be many things, it can be out and out aggression, or it can be a concerted effort in taking on missions against the ai.... Remember there are NO player factions in Elite dangerous, they are all ai factions.

You can come to our system in group and solo and you can work against our faction without any risk. That's the fault.
I go to your home puke all over your carpet and you can't do anything against it, you do not even see me. You only see the result. Cool thing?

 

[snadge]

Well I was in the Italian Air Force so we should understand each other, no? I rest my case: all forces in WWII made their best to circumvent the fact that they were all physically there. France fell almost without fighting because the Germans just went around their well-entrenched forces. Nobody wanted WWI v2.0

France lost more men of fighting age before US entered the war than US lost in whole war ( eu theatre).

 

[Daylen]

Even though none of the devs/team will read it, here's my 2 cents.

I never felt so angry after a mod post. You're literaly ting on a part of your game's community here by assuming to know how they want to play and driving them away from the game. It sounds a lot like you would be happy if the PvP scene would leave ED.

You cannot stop undermining with no amount of PvP, unless you are stopping every single ship that enters your system. At best, you can only slow it down.

Yes, I want to slow it down. It's much better than not being able to do anything. Grinding boring and broken missions against the other team is the most boring part of the whole game.

To increase your chances at sucessful PvP, you have to wing up, meaning less interdictions as well, so more people flying past you.

Again, why not? At least we can slow them down while somebody else, like our allies, help us with the BGS.

There is an attitude that if the PvPers could interdict everyone, they would win all encounters. This one is a bit funny and highly arrogant.

But it's true. Maybe one out of a hundred PvE players actually fights back and stands a chance against a skilled PvPer. When was the last time you've been in a PvP situation outside of CQC?

Enjoy trying to kill people who constantly run away. Or they can high wake out, and jump back, and while the defenders are dealing with that, others are flying past unattended.

And while the undermining team gets interdicted every few seconds they can do nothing against our faction.

Instancing - this is a killer. You can defend and defend, and yet people will get past you anyway, some players you will never see.

Again no reason to allow solo undermining. There will always be at least some people in your instance and fighting them, even if it's just a tiny fraction of the attackers, delivers more content than Elite does in any situation.

Timezones - you are a Euro group, the attackers are primarily located in a timezone when your players are asleep or at work/school. You're not going to stop them.

Funny though that we had PvP fights with people from all over the world. You meet a lot of europeans and people from the states around 11pm european time.


OK, at least I managed to answer all your main assumptions without insulting anyone.

TL;DR; We don't want to win the BGS with PvP, we want to have a chance to PvP against the people who in our front yard. Without them switching to carebear heaven whenever they feel like it's too much for them.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

You can come to our system in group and solo and you can work against our faction without any risk. That's the fault.
I go to your home puke all over your carpet and you can't do anything against it, you do not even see me. You only see the result. Cool thing?

but it isnt YOUR faction (even if the devs put it in with a name you suggested)..... the system the faction is in is not YOUR system.

The game many are asking for may well be a good game, indeed it is a MP model which is done many times, but it isnt THIS game. It is a design feature, and you are free to subjectively not to like it, but it does not make the design wrong.

we are talking systems with millions / billions of people in. The reality of it is modern computers and networking are incapable of really showing that scale in game, indeed you could argue the modes make the game realistic!. me, you everyone individually are a gnats pube in the grand scale of things.

15 people should NOT be able to influence things on a planetary scale. imagine players in solo being the masses of people who you do not get to see because realistically this is accurate, IF ED had 10.000 ships all in supercruise at the same time in a system all going against you, would you be able to influence them or even put a dent in them? This is what ED tries to simulate in the BGS, we just cant see them.
I am probably not wording myself well, and i can only appologise for that hopefully you can work out what i am trying to say (even if you disagree with me, which i am sure you will ...... )