Macroing, sign of UI change required?

[Spiggs]

Hello folks

For my part, I stumbled across Voice Attack (VA) as a result of reading Commander Flax's excellent thread on the subject and used his truly wonderful manual to learn how to use it.

Personally I use VA because I'm a doddery old fuddy-duddy (48 which is 96 in gaming years ) that doesn't have the twich skills of a King Cobra with 15 espresso's in their system and the memory of a card-counting elephant to remember what button does what anymore. So I liked the idea of being able to articulate instructions to my ship and gave VA a go, and quite honestly I haven't looked back.

For me, it really does increase the immersion of the game (Or any game for that matter, try it in ARMA III for squad controls, it'll blow your mind) and I love slip-sliding around the dark side of asteroids and telling my ship to "Go cold" and turn "Drives off" to minimise my signature to that of a tub of raspberry ripple ice cream. It's very, very cool indeed.

That's not to say that I sometimes forget what some specific command words are and end up repeating the wrong phase over and over while I'm looking at the Cockpit in complete indignation at my ships inability to understand what I'm telling it to do. But then I just programme that phrase into VA under that command and it's fixed.

It's not all wine and roses though and the worst thing about it is when the missus strolls past saying "Are you talking got your little ship again" followed by "Bless!". Any notion of being a swashbuckling commander and scourge of the space lanes goes right out the window along with the immersion I can tell you!

Considering the money that you can expend on equipment to enhance your gaming experience, (and for me, that's what I use it for), as others have stated, this was the best fiver I have spent and not just for ED either. I'd heartily recommend it to anyone.


P.S. Commander "ie" Peggington. Great handle and signature sir, tally-ho old bean!

 

[-o-]

So using VA, you can issue a series of stringed commands whist still looking directly ahead, which would normally require you to look to the left/right and go through the regular menu system?

If this is so, then it bypasses the disadvantages of using the default UI by providing increased UI speed, and awareness. By issuing a normal command, I assume you would lose viewing access to your radar because you needed to look left/right, but using a voice command, you can still view your radar, targetting, front screen etc - a clear advantage.

 

[DarkwingDuck]

How well would it work if you're co-ordinating an attack with mates through ventrillo/teamspeak/raidcall ? I could imagine it could get very noisy and confusing very quickly.

You can enable the Push-To-Talk function on teamspeak and therefore no one will hear you speaking to your ship hehe

Although thinking about it now you would then have to lose a button on your joystick/HOTAS setup to bind it to PTT bleh. But if you are using mouse control for your flying and have a few extra buttons the PTT function works wonders hehe.

Just my 2c

 

[Jezzah]

I don't use it to navigate menus personally (not even sure if can do this in any case due to software limitation and joystick press detection) only stuff that can be bound with a direct keyboard press.

Even if it can do what your alluding to it still performs the actions In game....so the screen moves to look at menus and scroll if you tell VA to scroll.

It's not anything like a clear advantage in my case. It's often slightly slower to say the command rather than just "do it" ... That's why I use it for only mundane stuff so that all the keys I NEED to get to quickly aren't being cluttered.

 

[Slawkenbergius]

There's kind of a macro system already implemented for fire-groups and for toggling 'silent running', and I reckon that could be extended to other areas as well. The side-panels should be there for things that involve reading (cargo lists, bounties, etc.)

 

[Darkfyre99]

So using VA, you can issue a series of stringed commands whist still looking directly ahead, which would normally require you to look to the left/right and go through the regular menu system?

If this is so, then it bypasses the disadvantages of using the default UI by providing increased UI speed, and awareness. By issuing a normal command, I assume you would lose viewing access to your radar because you needed to look left/right, but using a voice command, you can still view your radar, targetting, front screen etc - a clear advantage.

I can do that with my HOTAS using its included CH Control Manager. I have done so with landing gear and a few other systems. My view does look away briefly, but not nearly as much as navigating the menus manually.

Not to mention that I'm positive that other controller's software can do the same thing, not to mention that there are a host of free or inexpensive macro-programs out there. If someone wants to use a macro, they can.

The disadvantage of this approach is if you do something in the menu system, and then forget to return to your designated home screen, the macro you set up doesn't work.

In addition, I've found that I have to change the macro when the configuration of my ship changes. Certain options aren't always in the same place, especially as you add new systems to your ship.

Ideally we should be to be able to bind certain menu options to controls, but it seems pretty obvious to me that F: D is going the MFD route with its user interface is because every ship is going to be extremely unique, and a "one size fits all" approach won't work. We could be flying huge ships with multiple shield emitters, perhaps multiple power-plants, dozens sub-systems with different options... not simple heavy fighters.

edited to add "won't work" to " 'one size fits all' approach"

 

[Bingo Brewster]

So using VA, you can issue a series of stringed commands whist still looking directly ahead, which would normally require you to look to the left/right and go through the regular menu system?

If this is so, then it bypasses the disadvantages of using the default UI by providing increased UI speed, and awareness. By issuing a normal command, I assume you would lose viewing access to your radar because you needed to look left/right, but using a voice command, you can still view your radar, targetting, front screen etc - a clear advantage.

To a degree it is an advantage. But then there are other things that give you an advantage also, over players that dont have that kit. A fancy HOTAS setup for example. Track IR or Oculus Rift, Roccat Power Grid and more.

You can't stop people using soft or hardware that they think is going to enhance their experience or give them an advantage. And you cant/shouldn't dumb the UI down so that everyone is on a level playing field as the OP seemed to want. A level of complexity adds to the immersion.

These small differences all add to the flavor of the game IMO (or at least don't detract from it)

 

[Stachel]

FD need to decide why they really want the menus as they are. Is it to force players to make tactical decisions about when to perform time consuming actions like altering system settings? If so, they need to block macros that automate this. Is it purely for "immersion" reasons and nothing to do with "balance"? If so, there's no issue with macros but also no issue with, for example, providing a simplified streamlined interface without needing sideways looking for those who really dislike it and find it un-immersive. They can't have it both ways!

Its for consoles. The menus are pretty pointless for PC users who I am sure would prefer a proper graphical interface and/or fully customizable overlays. If you look at it from fdev's point of view its a decent compromise to maintain intra platform compatibility (which is where the money is long term).

The current system reminds me of Skyrim's nerfed console menu system where you had to constantly pause (or in this case turn your view away from the game) to fiddle with fittings or equipment etc. Its so bad for gameplay that there is literally no other reason than maintaining console compatibility to use such a system in a PC game where quick response is vital. The fact it can be macro'd to redundancy on a PC is essential really. I don't think that will change and at least you know why it is the way it is by default.

 

[Ben Ryder]

I havent been a console gamer since the age of the Atari VCS 2600.

This is just an observation and bit of an open-ended question.

I can see a lot of PC users whop already own or are buying kit to play elite dangerous. Voice Attack, 'Rift, joysticks, pedals, head trackers, extra screen etc.

Can you get a keyboard / key pad for most popular consoles? If you can what do you think the likelihood that console users would get one to enhance their enjoyment of Elite Dangerous?

It would be good to hear back from console gamers in particualr.

 

[mahoon]

You can't stop people using soft or hardware that they think is going to enhance their experience or give them an advantage. And you cant/shouldn't dumb the UI down so that everyone is on a level playing field as the OP seemed to want. A level of complexity adds to the immersion.

I don't think OP was talking about dumbing down the UI so everyone's on a level playing field. I think they're making the point that because a lot of people can use other tools to make their experience more enjoyable - the fundamental design, if not broken, perhaps needs attention. And maybe they're right.

I use a HOTAS stick and VoiceAttack. The keyboard-only elitists would be horrified I'm sure. The joystick isn't seen as an unfair advantage in games generally - it's seen as another input method. And VoiceAttack is simply pressing buttons with your voice. Sort of.

Macros are, arguably, either mere extensions of the above, or a dreadful short-cut unfair advantage. Your point of view dictates which side of the argument you personally come down on.

I think anything that involves you having to be present, at all times, in front of the monitor controlling the action is fair game. Anything that allows you to play and only keep one eye, or one hand, on what's going on and you're getting into dodgy territory. And that then leads us into the whole 'why bother playing at all' argument.

But I think, in summation, all the OP was saying was that if people are finding they're getting the most fun from interacting with the game using third party tools, perhaps the basic design needs some TLC. Or maybe he wasn't and I've missed the point entirely... I'm old. I'm allowed

 

[Herro Zaber]

Supporting macros is great but I think the basic "require lots of manual clicking around and looking to the side" design needs changing, otherwise macros will be ESSENTIAL for every pilot.

FD need to decide why they really want the menus as they are. Is it to force players to make tactical decisions about when to perform time consuming actions like altering system settings? If so, they need to block macros that automate this. Is it purely for "immersion" reasons and nothing to do with "balance"? If so, there's no issue with macros but also no issue with, for example, providing a simplified streamlined interface without needing sideways looking for those who really dislike it and find it un-immersive.
They can't have it both ways!

Spot on really, if the current UI is intended to slow us down some work will be required to block macros. But I think leave those menus there (I like them when things aren't frantic) and give us keyboard short cuts for more actions.


I must say I'm not sure how much of an issue this will be in the final game - right now in alpha we are more forced into pvp than I think the majority of population will be on release day. I'm excited to join the explorers and will also have at least one commander in offline mode.

Space is big - where will the day in day out pvp'er meet each other?

 

[Darkfyre99]

A thought occurred to me while bicycling to work: this UI is designed with the Oculus Rift in mind. Whether you use keyboard and mouse, a game pad, or a HOTAS, it's designed so you never gave to take your hands off your controls, and you activate one of the panels by looking at it.

 

[OriginalBadBoy]

Macros would kill the immersion. Simple as really, if people want to use speak then that's fine I can see that being a help in certain situations.

There will be people who will try and use macro software, or controllers that have the functionality anyway, so someone else will always have an advantage anyway.

Will quite happily use the menus in game, but might try out voice commands as well as at least that isn't immersion breaking.

 

[CMDR Texas Stu]

I can see both sides but the reality is any key press can and will be macro'd (by some) and voice attack will always be slower than pressing a key so it really isn't an issue. A gamepad or macro key will surely be quicker.
Should everyone macro or be at a disadvantage? I don't see it as a game changer. Possibly a convenience but not a necessity.
I do like the idea of macro evasive maneuver x/y/z but against a live opponent I am not sure of it's effectiveness against equally equipped and capable commander.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Macros would kill the immersion. Simple as really, if people want to use speak then that's fine I can see that being a help in certain situations.

There will be people who will try and use macro software, or controllers that have the functionality anyway, so someone else will always have an advantage anyway.

Will quite happily use the menus in game, but might try out voice commands as well as at least that isn't immersion breaking.

I don't see how macros kill immersion. It's not like our in-game avatar isn't already using a computerized interface to control ship functions. The advantage of computerized controls over hard wired controls is being able to adapt the controls to the user, and not the other way around.

Combine that with the extremely flexible control options already available, and I expect my in-game controls to be programmable as well. Not having that flexibility would break immersion far more than being able to create macro shortcuts.

Right now, what I get a new ship, I'm picturing my in-game character, as she boots up the ship's computer for the first time, inserting a data chip containing her commander profile, and pressing "Y" to the question,

"Load new commander? Y/N"

 

[Jack Schitt]

Part of the problem is that ED encompasses a multitude of roles for the pilot, but the bulk of what we've seen so far has been limited to combat.

Once we're out into the big wide galaxy and doing our trading, or monitoring the space lanes for prey, or checking the wanted lists for nice juicy bounties, the majority of what we're doing will be more akin to flying a GA aircraft or airliner than a fighter plane.

Switching ship modes for power management, scanning lists and maps for destinations and/or targets, checking on the ship's status to decide whether to pull in to the next repair station. All are broadly analogous to flying a modern civilian aircraft and personally I hope they put as much of this stuff on side menus or pop-out terminal windows as possible because it's really immersive, just like reaching for overhead toggles or panel switches in a modern helicopter or airliner simulator.

Hell, when we get to the point where we can move around the ship I'd actually like for some of the more esoteric interactions to require me to move out of my pilot's chair and glide over to, say, an engineering console. Anything that adds to the feeling of interacting with an actual spacecraft rather than just looking out of a fixed forward window, as long as it doesn't take too much time. It's a fine balance.

(FWIW if such a feature is implemented I'd want to control the pilot's movement in first-person. No Star Citizen-style cut-scenes here please. I don't want to see my avatar tossing his helmet in his cockpit over and over thank you very much).

On the other hand full-on combat, as we've seen, requires split-second reactions and decisions, and having critical tactical options hidden away in side menus makes little sense. Combat in the current builds is analogous to flying a modern fighter jet, and not only would nobody design a fighter with the options tucked away like that but if FD forces the issue then people will just macro their way around it anyway.

IMO every combat feature should be bindable and/or available as a series of simple HUD elements in front of, not to the side of, the pilot. Just like a modern fighter simulator. Whereas all non-combat features can be put wherever the hell you want them as far as I'm concerned, and the more the merrier.

Of course at this point we have little knowledge of how combat in the larger ships will play out. With balanced weapons and proper ship component damage modelling it may well be the case that combat in heavier craft will be more tactical and less twitch, and that having some options on side panels won't be quite the game changer it is in the current alpha.

But it seems clear that for the current Sidewinder and Cobra, having any combat control more than a single button or keypress away is just too much of a drawback. I can only imagine what it will be like if the proper fighter-class craft like the Falcon and Eagle have similarly designed UIs.

 

[k10]

imagine if you will..

if a macro-bot existed that could mine all day for you, knew enough to use point defense and run away, etc, as necessary and also cost a fiver? would you use that?
or a macro-bot that could perform a CAP (combat air patrol)?

these bots might not exist yet but they will. it's my suspicion that the awkward UI is not just for immersion but to prevent trivial (and I mean simple) macro-bot coding.

bots can look at co-ordinates on screen and perform OCR or look at another area and take a tiny screen shot. the check sum of the screenshot can mean anything. for instance if it means that your shields are low then a reaction can be coded that the bot will then perform.

mining might not be too difficult to code. NPC CAP might not be that much more difficult.
I hope everyone sees the issues here. we will have to deal with players using an unfair advantage (or they might have other plans).

 

[technome]

*snip*

No Star Citizen-style cut-scenes here please. I don't want to see my avatar tossing his helmet in his cockpit over and over thank you very much).

*snip*

I see what you did there...

 

[Dejay]

I totally agree that more key-bindings sound great.

I'd also love an in game macro system like in early wow, but probably that won't happen.

 

[Memnoch]

If they really wanted to stop or curtail macroing, having everything accessible from a menu that is tricky to work out its "home" position so that everything works right would be one way to do it.

I don't have a problem with macros at all, nor VA which is just another way of running them. It is inevitable that players are going to want to streamline or optimise common processes and tasks if FD don't create ways of doing it themselves. I would guess that by using them you are probably saving yourself seconds of time but those few seconds could be valuable.