(For the Future) What Will FPS War Look Like?

I have to say that i disagree. Bombing hole cities and killing billions of people on one earth like planet wouldn't matter for empire, alliance or federation. They have Thousands of systems worth of income, so they can rebuild anything they need easily. Also population is so high in elite universe that killing 10 billion people while clearing planet would have same effect on elite universe than USAs airstrikes against ISIS have on hole population of earth.

It would make more sense to just bombard from orbit until all resistance on planet is dead or they surrender and then secure area with ground troops like UN secure conflict areas after fighting has stopped. For major factions property, structures or population on one planet doesn't matter at all because those can be replaced easily and relatively on low cost.

Between minor factions ground combat could be possible but would only limit on controlling some key places. Ships would still be the key factor because ships can move fast have huge weaponry and can help in controlling space and protecting space station.

You compare symmetrical and asymmetrical warfare like it's the same thing. People tend to shoot back if they have the means to do so.
Also you're not bombing a planet for the sake of doing so. You have a greater goal, in most cases taking control over it. Eradicating everything on the planet and building it completely new would be a bit dumb, wouldnt it?

We have huge hardpoints on ships, sure, but how big are the weapons you can set up in a stationary position on a planet behind a shield far stronger than anything you have on your ship?

Sorry to disappoint you but it's not as easy as you thought it is.
 

Ripbudd

Banned
We can wait for Star Citizen and see how it will turn out. I was really really hardcore SC supporter and hated ED, and here i am, flying in ED with Horizons.
 

Goose4291

Banned
What people sometimes fail to take into account when they look at Space shows/movies portraying ground combat and declare that they don't make sense is the question of what's lead to deploy troops in the first instance.


In Starship Troopers (the movie, not book) for example, the Mobile Infantry are deployed planetside due to the bugs 'going to ground' in deeply entrenched nests that need to be rooted out because the spaceborne weaponry was ineffective at penetrating that deep underground.


In The Empire Strikes Back, the Rebels have deployed a shield generator that is either impenetrable, or so strong it will take lots of firepower as a delaying action measure, leading to the Imperials deploying planetside as the longer they wait, the more of them will escape. This also kind of applies to Return of the Jedi, as the Rebel Fleet wasn't able to destroy the shield generators so a infiltration unit was jobbed off for the task.


Regarding Elite, we have so little information regarding small arms and planetary combat (beyond the fact it happens) that many assumptions would have to be made as to why you're putting boots on the ground.


Firstly, there's Asymetrical warfare, the type we see currently in Afghanistan and Iraq, with modern military units deployed on the ground to (i) win the 'hearts and minds' of CIVPOP and (ii) root out OPFOR with minimal collateral damage, as such events will push CIVPOP more over to the insurgents side. Rocking up in 4 Eagles firing dumbfire rockets into an installation isn't going to be conducive to this type of warfare. Whilst the more death dealing assets will be used, Infantry would still be needed to PID the target on the ground and provide accurate Forward Observer duties if the role required it.


Secondly we have conventional warfare, to take and hold a region of land. Now you're opponent who is on the defence is likely to have some sort of area denying measure, such as Empire's aforementioned shield generator or a strong AA presence which would render any advantage your space/air superiority a moot point. To regain your advantage, you'll need to put boots on the ground to locate/destroy those assets to allow you to field your fast air, and for all the talk of amazing satellite cover/drone flights, conversley your enemies ability to hide their assets will no doubt improve at an equal rate, and nothing is better at Recce than a man in a bush with a pair of binocs.


Now we've identified our reasons to put INF on the ground, they need supporting. As we know the key to modern or future war is going to be tempo (speed of action) so they're going to need to be able to move around fast. Now in asymetrical that's not an issue, because your fast air can ferry people around (assuming there is a negligble AA threat), so they're going to need vehicles to move around whether this is light 'technicals' (ie trucks/4x4's) at the bare minimum or heavier APCs/IFVs will of course need to be dictated by the situation, so you'll need both types of ground transportation to move your troops around (because, if you don't you risk losing the tempo whilst trying to bring a suitable support asset up).


Now our infantry are mobile and roaming the countryside as jolly green giants of death, intent on assaulting an entrenched position manned by the OPFOR infantry. At this point, Arty and of course tanks are potentially going to need to be employed as well as you're own limited AA presence to protect these assets whilst they remove the enemies AA so you can try to restore air superiority.


At this point we've only discussed 'teeth' elements of the land war. Behind these guys will be all the Logistics teams ferrying supplies/casualties/reinforcements back and forth from your landing point to try to ensure you maintain the tempo of your aggressive actions. Suddenly you're looking at an ORBAT that is not too dissimilar from a modern amphibious warfare unit, except that some of the units/assets are either in space or deploying from space instead of from the sea.


The Aliens Colonial Marines Technical Manual (a fantastic source of believable futuristic military nonsense) puts it best in a quotation


"There will always be a need for a man with a rifle to take and occupy ground."
 
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As for me, I hope that they would eventually scrap the idea of adding FPS module in favor of something more interesting. Like gas giant stations (think Bespin), or more variants of space stations or surface ports.
It may sound fun to be able to walk around stations and talking with inhabitants. It stops being fun after you're forced to repeat that over and over again just in order to complete your mission.
 

Goose4291

Banned
As for me, I hope that they would eventually scrap the idea of adding FPS module in favor of something more interesting. Like gas giant stations (think Bespin), or more variants of space stations or surface ports.


It's been confirmed they're being added (in a Lave Radio podcast a while back).

It may sound fun to be able to walk around stations and talking with inhabitants. It stops being fun after you're forced to repeat that over and over again just in order to complete your mission.

Conversely using that train of thought, one could argue:

"It may sound fun to be able to dock at stations and use the bulletin board. It stops being fun after you're forced to repeat that over and over again just in order to complete your mission."
 
So hundreds of soldiers in Remlock suits bunny hop around on a 0.01 G world dodging ordnance.. well that should be hillarious. Since there was no mention of any armored suit of any sort that compensates for the gravitation on most worlds, ground warfare has to be the most dangerous of all occupations out there. Just imagine they deploy you on a planet where running too fast can get you to escape velocity, and you float away like a funny waving flesh balloon.
 
You compare symmetrical and asymmetrical warfare like it's the same thing. People tend to shoot back if they have the means to do so.
Also you're not bombing a planet for the sake of doing so. You have a greater goal, in most cases taking control over it. Eradicating everything on the planet and building it completely new would be a bit dumb, wouldnt it?

We have huge hardpoints on ships, sure, but how big are the weapons you can set up in a stationary position on a planet behind a shield far stronger than anything you have on your ship?

Sorry to disappoint you but it's not as easy as you thought it is.

Elite doesn't have planetary shields. And if planetary defensive weapons could stop fleet bombarding planet it would be able to stop any attempt to land ground forces. So taking out defensive system first would still have to happen before landing attempt and ground attack. Without defensive weaponry planet can't fight back and attacking fleet can just bombard from orbit without giving ground forces change to fight back. Why would you go fight with them if you can poke them from far?

Factories, cities and planetary logistics would still require rebuilding after ground fighting, so it would make sense for attacker just to skip most of ground combat phase if they plan to conquer the planet. Ground units would just go to locations after planetary defensive systems and main defensive ground forces are down to secure area and if they met resistance that still want to fight ships would destroy targets

Most ground fighting would be done by spec ob units that would fight like terrorist fight today to take out some planetary defensive systems or sabotage them. Huge ground battles like seen in ww1 an ww2 wouldn't happen.
 
Elite doesn't have planetary shields. And if planetary defensive weapons could stop fleet bombarding planet it would be able to stop any attempt to land ground forces. So taking out defensive system first would still have to happen before landing attempt and ground attack. Without defensive weaponry planet can't fight back and attacking fleet can just bombard from orbit without giving ground forces change to fight back. Why would you go fight with them if you can poke them from far?

Factories, cities and planetary logistics would still require rebuilding after ground fighting, so it would make sense for attacker just to skip most of ground combat phase if they plan to conquer the planet. Ground units would just go to locations after planetary defensive systems and main defensive ground forces are down to secure area and if they met resistance that still want to fight ships would destroy targets

Most ground fighting would be done by spec ob units that would fight like terrorist fight today to take out some planetary defensive systems or sabotage them. Huge ground battles like seen in ww1 an ww2 wouldn't happen.

I never mentioned planetary shields. I mentioned shields bigger than what we have on our ships and we know that they exist (just go and look on a planetary city on an airless world).

For the rest read Goose4291s post again, he explained it pretty good.
 

Goose4291

Banned
Elite doesn't have planetary shields. And if planetary defensive weapons could stop fleet bombarding planet it would be able to stop any attempt to land ground forces. So taking out defensive system first would still have to happen before landing attempt and ground attack. Without defensive weaponry planet can't fight back and attacking fleet can just bombard from orbit without giving ground forces change to fight back. Why would you go fight with them if you can poke them from far?

Factories, cities and planetary logistics would still require rebuilding after ground fighting, so it would make sense for attacker just to skip most of ground combat phase if they plan to conquer the planet. Ground units would just go to locations after planetary defensive systems and main defensive ground forces are down to secure area and if they met resistance that still want to fight ships would destroy targets

Most ground fighting would be done by spec ob units that would fight like terrorist fight today to take out some planetary defensive systems or sabotage them. Huge ground battles like seen in ww1 an ww2 wouldn't happen.

It doesn't have planetary shields. However Elite does have:

(i) Point Defence Systems which on a larger scale could reasonably be retooled to shoot down incoming ordinance in the way that modern CIWS weapons were taken from Ships and put into bases in Iraq and Afghanistan.

(ii) AA Defence Systems (seen on a small scale at planetary bases). It's reasonable to assume that portable and/or larger variants of these exist in the lore.

Assuming most of a ground war is fought by 'Spec Ops' units is a very naive way of looking at things. In the first Gulf War, whilst Special Forces units did there part (mostly recce and Forward Observing and of course hunting down Scud launchers) massive tank battles still raged across the Kuwaiti plains despite the Coalition having air superiority.

Also, you can't just smash things from orbit/afar willy-nilly because all it does is turns the CIVPOP against you the moment you annex the place leading to a potential insurgency war that could last indefinitely.

The best example you can draw for a modern parrallel of a space war would be the Falklands Conflict in 1982, with both sides fighting over a island (read planet) and two major amphibious operations being launched to claim and liberate the island. In both events, despite the overwhelming firepower that seaborne and airborne assets provided, boots were still put on the ground, and men fought hand to hand in trenches with fist, tooth and bayonet.
 
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Conversely using that train of thought, one could argue:

"It may sound fun to be able to dock at stations and use the bulletin board. It stops being fun after you're forced to repeat that over and over again just in order to complete your mission."

You've obviously never played X Rebirth.
 
I think FPS in this game is most likely going to consist of small scale fights. Boarding ships, breaching ground bases etc. Just way to vulnerable outside to big ships etc.
 
A few thoughts:
- 2 key mission types spring to mind. The first is the "kill everything" concept. For a space based game, that's fairly straightforward. Turn up with a big mass driver and some asteroids and bombard the location from orbit. From ED's perspective, I guess the key point there is having a suitably big ship capable of moving around suitably sized asteroids and then firing them. Maybe that could be a new ship class, that would therefore need protection and could be ambushed. I really don't see any more complex being needed, as an asteroid moving at say 50km/s is going to be just as effective as a decent nuke.
The second mission type would be to "capture" a base/location. That would clearly preclude the use of massive bombardment tools.
- For a capture, then you can introduce all sorts of new requirements, e.g.
For the assault side: Appropriate ships to transport troops, how to land troops, ground vehicles (anything from tanks, APCs, hover vehicles, helicopters, jets etc), then how to coordinate and communicate with that lot
From a defensive side. In system defensive zones, e.g. the ability to mine an area of space, the ability to destroy nav beacons, or setup dummy ones to suck incoming ships into traps, fortified space stations. Planetside the existing bases we see are basically indefensible, so maybe shielded domes, or otherwise underground bases. Add to that similar types of vehicles, layers of defense etc.
 
Orbital bombardment anyone?

Why waste expensive ordinance if you can just hurl some small asteroids onto the enemy base?
 
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