Powerplay I hate my job and resent the success of others: Passive-Aggressive Power Play?

[ever]

The discussion about Solo/Open should be kept alive, since it affects the way you experience the game and the community and how the community experiences you.

The only place for a real debate about Open/Solo would be Power Play. For a casual player, open should not be that much of a deal to discuss, even if he is part of a Power. A casual player should avoid the HQ and just do undermining or BGS. It is unlikely you'll find somebody. And if you do, jump to another system and do the same stuff. There are many systems, the probability of finding someone is very low.

Since Power Play is an adversarial and team sport, OPEN play should be rewarded, by increasing the merits you earn, while operating in Open. The risk is higher, the reward should be higher. A casual player can still play in solo and do his 1500 weekly merits. That will not affect a Power to such a degree, how it would be affected by a Player who does 100.000 merits in a week. The benefits of introducing a reward for playing Power Play in Open are greater than the drawbacks. More interaction, more drama, more coordination, the "feeling" you are at war.

Back in the day, when I joined Power Play and a group, we used to and still play only in Open. For me it was a very nice experience, because we had terrorists in our HQ and I needed an escort almost every time. But that constant danger integrated me faster in the community and created a bond within our group. And yes, I got destroyed, twice in a T7 and once in a T9. And yes, it was very frustrating. But it sharpened in the end my evasion skills and contributed in a decisive way to the fact, that I'm still playing the game and it's still fun.

I hope that the Devs will introduce greater rewards in open for PP. But if not at least give as the possibility to send bad-ass NPCs to an enemy HQ and they should do such a blockade, that all those Solo-Elite Combat-Power Play players would come to open and ask for help, or beg for Open. You can escape a Cmdr but not a NPC who never misses and has infinite rails. haha

 

[SamSlade]

Just to let you know,

Moderators are allowed to post their opinion Just the same as any other forum user.

If you disagree with another forum members post (this includes a moderator posting in a non Moderator capacity) you can of course disagree with them as long as it's:

1) Constructive
2) Abides by the forum rules.

It is not however acceptable to accuse another forum member of "flame-bait" and similar comments irrespective of their forum status.

The correct and only course of action is to report the post you feel breaks the rules where it will be reviewed.

That being the case, please consider how you post in future.

Thanks.

Now let's get back to the topic in hand.

If you're replying with an opinion then you shouldn't be doing so under a moderators moniker: for all I know your above blind defense of inflammatory and topic derailing posting is just another contemptible opinion to be treated as such.

As to posting again, I assure you that will be a rare sight: this is like dealing with Reddit moderators.

 

[Ian Phillips]

If you're replying with an opinion then you shouldn't be doing so under a moderators moniker: for all I know your above blind defense of inflammatory and topic derailing posting is just another contemptible opinion to be treated as such..

Not possible at the moment due to the forum software.

As for the rest.... please aquaint yourself with the forum rules, to which you have agreed when signing up for a forum account. You can find them here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=118626

 

[SCSkunk]

If you're replying with an opinion then you shouldn't be doing so under a moderators moniker: for all I know your above blind defense of inflammatory and topic derailing posting is just another contemptible opinion to be treated as such.

As to posting again, I assure you that will be a rare sight: this is like dealing with Reddit moderators.

Hey man, the Mods are just volunteers who have a passion for the game also. They're can post anything they want, just like us, within the rules of the forum. We're all entitled to our opinions, my friend!

 

[Sir.Tj]

If you're replying with an opinion then you shouldn't be doing so under a moderators moniker: for all I know your above blind defense of inflammatory and topic derailing posting is just another contemptible opinion to be treated as such.

As to posting again, I assure you that will be a rare sight: this is like dealing with Reddit moderators.

No, I'm posting in the capacity of a Moderator.

 

[Roybe]

So... back to my query: why does the only mechanically supported conflict between PLAYERS exist in a purely Passive-Aggressive context? There is no sandbox here; it is a simple grind fight and, again as a newer player, makes me question why I would want to engage in this interaction.

The game is designed so that the 'mechanically supported conflict' is INDIRECT PvP. In short, two sides engaged in a conflict where the outcome is decided by the side that move the most PvE trophies.

PvP is allowed...but has an extremely limited scope in the 'mechanical supported conflict'. Why? Because that is the design decision of the devs. What is wrong with this idea? Nothing...except people that want to smash others in the face feel 'left out'.

 

[Brett C]

If you're replying with an opinion then you shouldn't be doing so under a moderators moniker: for all I know your above blind defense of inflammatory and topic derailing posting is just another contemptible opinion to be treated as such.

As to posting again, I assure you that will be a rare sight: this is like dealing with Reddit moderators.

Unfortunately, our forum software doesn't have the capability to toggle on/off a moderator flair.

This forum software is not reddit, please stop comparing the two. They are world apart in functionality.

 

[ever]

The game is designed so that the 'mechanically supported conflict' is INDIRECT PvP. In short, two sides engaged in a conflict where the outcome is decided by the side that move the most PvE trophies.

PvP is allowed...but has an extremely limited scope in the 'mechanical supported conflict'. Why? Because that is the design decision of the devs. What is wrong with this idea? Nothing...except people that want to smash others in the face feel 'left out'.

I don't think true Power Play people want to smash others in the face. I think it is more immersive to meet the players, you are fighting against and have from time to time some fights. Some people describe Open as horror, but first I do not know where you meet all these people, and second, not everybody is out to get you and if they are, you can still escape or just avoid that system till things calm down. I want to think, that between organised PP groups some kind of gentlemen agreement can be achieved. "You kill me, I lift the blockade" kind of deals. It's when you want to win, no matter what, the game becomes boring.

 

[Roybe]

I don't think true Power Play people want to smash others in the face. I think it is more immersive to meet the players, you are fighting against and have from time to time some fights. Some people describe Open as horror, but first I do not know where you meet all these people, and second, not everybody is out to get you and if they are, you can still escape or just avoid that system till things calm down. I want to think, that between organised PP groups some kind of gentlemen agreement can be achieved. "You kill me, I lift the blockade" kind of deals. It's when you want to win, no matter what, the game becomes boring.

Your immersion is another players headache. The game is pretty much ossified around the modes now. The people that are in Open 100% are there...those that are in Private 100% are there...and those that switch are there. No one's (not you personally, but a few on this thread) concerns, playful jibes, or insults are going to change the way people look at this issue.

If there is a change to the reward system and Open is more rewarding...people in Private will most likely not participate in the part that is rewarded... and many might leave because they will be upset with the idea they are being forced to play against their desired play style to feel equivalent. But very few will 'be enticed' to play elsewhere.

The only negotiations that can occur, that make any diplomatic sense in PP, is to work out with others which systems will not be PvE'ed in. Blockades do not work. All that people can negotiate for is the cessation of PVE activities. And those negotiations are fraught with problems because of the locusts within the game.

And keep in mind with a small change to router settings anyone can play in Open and never be seen by others. A setting that used to be within the .ini file of the game.

 

[SciTrekker]

<clip>Firstly, i would make player kills in each others' territories provide merits. Kill an opposing player in your own territory, you get 100 merits (subject to revision based on testing) towards fortification. In prep/expansion systems the similar. Killing an opponent in their systems provides 100 points towards undermining.</clip>

I'll support this a million percent

 

[Surly_Badger]

I don't play powerplay. When I discovered that it's not only open, I concluded it was stupid. As the OP says, it just becomes a contest to see who can grind more.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I find it rather disconcerting that a Moderator would reply with such an nonconstructive, passive-aggressive 'flame-bait' comment.

I was not aware that this issue was such a contentious topic(and had been for a full year) and was actually wondering if it was a Power Play 'work in progress' or something: to be honest I had thought that this kind of Solo/Group action was part of the Fifth Column activity one of the Devs posted about.

Thanks to your input I know it is working as intended and that Moderators actively encourage a toxic forum environment: thank you for your beneficent knowledge and I'll be sure to avoid the forums and stick to the, unbelievable that I say this, more mature environment on Reddit.

I'm sorry you didn't appreciate the humour, i was aiming for being ironic.

Look at it this way, the whole business about Powerplay is the current mechanic is basically a big grind. Two basic forms exist. The pew-pew side (for most powers that's on the undermining side), and the delivery boy side (for most powers that's on the fortification side)... there is some variation between powers of course.

Now, what happens if powerplay becomes open only. Firstly, the gameplay perspective.

The pew-pew side is not a major problem, because all people doing it would be in combat fitted ships, there would be no major imbalance.
On the delivery side though, we have the same issue we have with pirates and traders, but only escalated tenfold, because pirates (theoretically) want cargo, and the trader can move on, and still make some profit. What we get here is akin to legalized ganking. With combat fitted ships taking out non-combat ships who are trying to make delivieres. Some might try and roleplay it, interdicting people and telling them to leave the system or die, but most I imagine will simply interdict and destroy (assuming the target doesn't escape via high wake).

There is of course another way out for those doing deliveries, and that is to build for speed. Cobras and Clippers are prime candiadates. It could be, that if this came to pass, only the greedy delivery players would run the risk of destruction. The clever ones will be in fast ships, simply running from all interdictions and laughing at the interdictor.

Ok, so technically, it could work, the gameplay might change a little.

There is another slight issue, and that's similar to a point i raised not long back in my BGS thread. The more resources you put into defense (or PvP) the less you have going into actually running the grind. Careful strategy would have to be in place between players to ensure that you made a coordinated defense, otherwise it would simply happen that your opponents would outgrind you. There would still be too many people getting past your defenses while you tried to stop them. Too large a play area, instances, and other factors would ensure those dedicated to getting through would get through. Whereas the merits you would get per kill of someone trying to get though would be... minimal?

Its not a show stopper, but you could disadvantage yourself against a power with equal number of players.

Now let's move onto the probably more tricky issue. Can FD actually do this? Well, of course they could technically. But can they without causing a serious backlash?

I highly doubt that. There are those for whom Powerplay is a PvE game, not a PvP one. There are those who are on limited connections, and forced to play in solo (reading today about a guy who plays from a ship with sattelite connection, very high latency, you'd never see that guy probably even if he was playing in Open).

Basically FD would have to say, guys, sorry to those of you who prefer to (or must) play in groups/solo, and even though we repeatedly stated all modes are equal from before you bought the game to after it, we are now changing this position, and you are just going to have to suck it up. That's a whole compoent of the first season locked away from those who don't or can't play in Open. I think that's ground for legal action or refunds, don't you?

I think you can see the comparison here

On the other hand, we have the ardent PvPers, who for some reason bought a game with modes, where they had no excuse for not knowing all modes are equal, who then want to change the game so the modes are not equal, because the don't like it.

[video=youtube_share;SJ77e-Uzscs]https://youtu.be/SJ77e-Uzscs?t=46[/video]

I understand this must be frustrating for Open only players who feel they are playing the game the "right" way, and that others who don't play the game their way are "cowards" or "cheating" or whatever. But the truth of the matter is, we were sold a game with equal modes.

You say you were not aware of all the issues relating to this, even though you have been here for a year. Its a surprising statement to say the least. But perhaps you can go and dig up the thread where Sandro proposed a bonus for playing in Open and doing Powerplay. You might get a good feel for some of the arguments on both sides.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I'll just throw another question out here.

Do you stop 100% of the players playing in Open from working against you? Because i do tend to notice, a majority of powerplayers do claim to play in open. Therefore the biggest effect is probably coming from open powerplayers.

Perhaps, once you are capable of stopping 100% of the open players, it might be then worth discussing how you might have the capability to stop even more players who might be playing in other modes.

 

[Bigglesof206]

Fair enough with the reasoned comment, but 'avoiding that system' is an impractical suggestion (which suggests you've not tried it) - when your powerplay activity requires you to transport goods to or from your power's home system, and that system is being camped by wings of opposing players in fully tooled up PvP ships. You simply are preventing any transport activity being accomplished in open....so the cargo ships, who have zero chance of reaching the port, swap to group/solo or they won't get their runs done. Thanks to the merit awarding rules there is NO incentive for friendly CMDRs to protect the home system, which is totally illogical but a result of the lack of merits for killing enemy ships in your own systems.

Sincerely, I do appreciate it when somebody tries to apply some thought to issues like this, and your ideas would have merit if there were a bit more logic in the way it all worked - ie merits for defensive play, so when your cargo ship gets interdicted there's a reasonable chance of help dropping in to even the fight a bit. To maintain level 5 involves handing a large part of the paypacket back to fast track, being killed just once with a cargo wipes out the entire effort for the week (cost of ship plus fast tracked cargo kills half your pay in one go), and you can't just hang about elsewhere hoping your home system will magically clear up 'cos it takes a good amount of time to actually fly the trips required... fast tracking everything still involves a minimum 7-10 hours of in game flying from A to B and back. Risk:Reward for a cargo pilot in PP Open is abysmal.

Scusi - that was intended primarily for Ever....a few posts got in between!

 

[EUS]

Exactly, you've hit the nail with this post. Solo players are not part of the open community but they influence us. That's wrong.

You have it backwards, open players affecting the BGS is messing up solo/group play, and should be stopped. No more open!

"You got chocolate in my peanut butter!"
"You got peanut butter on my chocolate!"

 

[Ziljan]

Yeah it's kinda ridiculous, we've been trying to change this for literally years now

I don't think powerplay should be Open only. Elite should be playable by all, and that includes people who have crappy internet or don't want PvP

However there should be balancing mechanisms that mean that Open isn't inferior to solo/PG. Which is why I like Sandro's suggestion of a % bonus impact to Open merits earned

Agree

Sandro is generally very well though out in his solutions. And I think this choice is probably the best one, short of a complete reworking. And honestly, I think the current framework is fine, but just needs lots of fleshing out. More mission types, exploration/spying merits (that also advance exploration rank ), combat fortification (eg system defense) etc.

 

[SamSlade]

I've seen a good deal of black and white, accusatory vitriol in this thread(maybe two contributors who made even the slightest effort to appreciate both sides of the argument).

The assertion that people having to consider tactical building/ship selection or joining a wing to evade a blockade is a bad thing sounds like myopic laziness to be honest; a self-fulfilling and wholly relative justification of an objective point.

The idea that a power could be successful if all they did was camp a 'Homeworld' feels like a design flaw: if an NPC military can project power across the reaches of space(with Battlecruisers!?!) where are their Homeguard? Why can I putter into a home system in a Viper and not be interdicted by a wing or Corvettes? Homeworlds should be a fortress and making an attack run a serious risk.

As to risk versus reward: what's wrong with that? Locking Powerplay to Open only is selfish and unnecessary: quadrupling the power action contribution and doubling the merit gain of Powerplay in Open seems fair and reasonable. This benefit would go some way to making "all modes equal" as opposed to having Solo/Group play be indisputably advantageous.

Further: why do you not get merits for defending? Killing an Enemy is killing an enemy: if I have to face hostile systems and ships then surely winning that fight deserves merit points? This also feels like a design flaw.


As it stands the prevailing tactic seems to be hoarding expansion/undermine merit until the last second and then going hell for leather to surprise everyone: this is just gambling, not tactical resource management. Merits in powerplay need a timer to ensure they cannot be stockpiled. This appears to be a huge issue.


"Basically FD would have to say, guys, sorry to those of you who prefer to (or must) play in groups/solo, and even though we repeatedly stated all modes are equal from before you bought the game to after it, we are now changing this position, and you are just going to have to suck it up. That's a whole compoent of the first season locked away from those who don't or can't play in Open. I think that's ground for legal action or refunds, don't you?"

This comment in particular is blatant Chicken Little fear mongering: incentivizing Open Powerplay(because it is harder) just means Solo/Group players would have to make more calculated decisions and choose their targets wisely(so... it would make Grind based Powerplay harder): you could in fact argue it is adding value to the service by increasing the challenge. As to the legal action; no, it is most assuredly not grounds for legal action as the feature could and would remain available to all customers... talk of legal action is juvenile, uninformed chest beating(yes, I am very familiar with CPLs in the US, Canada, the EU and Aus... none would apply here).

It appears that a severe lack of perspective is the prevailing issue when looking at Powerplay Mechanics.

 

[Andovar]

While I think that the idea of a struggle among powers is a great idea, PowerPlay is a horribly implemented game mechanic. Even without the solo vs open issue, it's simply a giant grind, not any kind of strategic struggle or battle between groups like it should be.
Which is why i quit it about 6 weeks after it was released. Really hoping it gets an overhaul at some point, as I believe the idea does have potential.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Merits in powerplay need a timer to ensure they cannot be stockpiled. [/B]This appears to be a huge issue.

Now that's a reasonable and interesting idea. As long as the timer is long enough, and the mechanic would need to be clearly displayed somehow.

 

[Esvandiary]

Power Play has devolved into everyone holding their cards until the last ten minutes in a week long cycle. And everyone shows their hand at the same time, hoping to surprise everyone else and pull of a coup. I don't believe this was the intended mechanic, but the Community figured out how to min/max it, by utilizing what equates to the PP version of Combat Logging. Is that too far fetched a comparison? Solo mode grinding with zero risk of the opposing force being able to touch you is like playing a game you can't lose. If you can't see your opposition, they've effectively pulled their plug. But worse yet, they are still attacking you. You are defenseless. Yet we worry that it's the Grinders who would be defenseless...

So my personal opinion is that earned but currently unclaimed merits should also show up in the PP totals for a given system - a second "faded out" stage of the bars, if you like. That way you can see what merits are currently "pending" for a given system, giving you a much better idea of whether another power is preparing to snipe you.
It also makes sense from an in-game point of view too - presumably the power's infrastructure can tell that several hundred of their ships have mysteriously exploded, whether or not another power has yet claimed responsibility for it...

Edit: A timer would work too!